The vile rants of the Koran

reply to post by Skyfloating


To be honest, I've had a few conversations that went something like that too, but they were with fundamentalist crhistians

I just happen to think its better to discover answers to the big questions on your own, rather than following the edicts of a book passed on from generation to generation.

My spiritual path is definately not ment for everyone, but it certainly feels right to me.

Reply to kacou

The Quran is the literal word of God, which He revealed to His Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him)through the Angel Gabriel.It was memorized by Muhammad(peace be upon him), who then dictated it to his Companions. They, in turn, memorized it, wrote it down, and reviewed it with the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him). Moreover, the Prophet Muhammad(peac be upon him) reviewed the Quran with the Angel Gabriel once each year and twice in the last year of his life.From the time the Quran was revealed, until this day, there has always been a huge number of Muslims who have memorized all of the Quran, letter by letter. Some of them have even been able to memorize all of the Quran by the age of ten. Not one letter of the Quran has been changed over the centuries.

The Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him to the Prophet Muhammad , and that the Quran was not authored by Muhammad or by any other human being. This also proves that Muhammad is truly a prophet sent by God. It is beyond reason that anyone fourteen hundred years ago would have known these facts discovered or proven only recently with advanced equipment and sophisticated scientific methods.

reply to post by kangjia57


The fact that you refuse to recognise that culture helps shape and define religion, and vice versa, just proves how conditioned you are.

If Islam has stayed the same how do you explain the different sects with different beliefs?
Islam must have changed for this to occur.
You also state that the differences are only slight.
Slight enough for Muslims to have been killing each other for centuries over them.
I personally think that if something is worth killing / dying for then it is something slightly more significant than "slight"!

As stated previously, I think others have more than adequately debated the role of women within Islam with you.

You yourself have stated that you believe Sharia Law will be imposed in the UK and that non-believers will be forced to adhere to it's rules.
That is imposition by definition.

Why should life be a test?
Why would "God" demand it? What does "God" get out of testing people?
Why should this life be such a miserable trial?
I honestly do not get this at all.
Again, as previously stated, I don't buy into this "your reward is after you die" nonsense, of any religous creed.
I've never stated that you are forcing me too, yet.
Christians are being increasingly persecuted in Muslim countries, yet Muslims demand more and more rights and recognition in Western society.
Hypocrisy and double standards.

I have come to the opinion that the Western world will always be in conflict with Islam until the Islamic world develops a more tolerant and free thinking approach and the West rids itself of it's self-righteous "we know what's best for you" attitude.

reply to post by kangjia57


Mohammad Ibn Ishaq prophet Mohammed chief biographer, He related the event as follows:

'Whilst I was asleep, with a coverlet of silk brocade whereon was some writing, the angel Gabriel appeared to me and said, “Read!” I said, “I do not read.” He pressed me with the coverlets so tightly that I thought 'twas death. Then he let me go, and said, “Read!”... So I read aloud, and he departed from me at last. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was as though these words were written on my heart. I went forth until, when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying, “0 Mohammed! Thou art the messenger of Allah, and I am Gabriel.” I raised my head toward heaven to see, and lo, Gabriel in the form of a man, with feet set evenly on the rim of the sky, saying, “0 Mohammed! Thou art the messenger of Allah, and I am Gabriel.”

Returning to Khadija, he informed her of the visions.

It seems that the prophet Mohammed had woman in bigger admiration then many people or many so called holly books because he came to her first.
It also seems that the prophet Mohammed was very glade after the departure of angel Gabriel. Because he said “departed from me at last” which could be interpreted as “thanks God this bully is gone now”.

Kacou

Reply to Freeborn

The fact that you refuse to recognise that culture helps shape and define religion, and vice versa, just proves how conditioned you are.

I rather stay conditioned than to think I am an animal or behave like an animal.

If Islam has stayed the same how do you explain the different sects with different beliefs?
Islam must have changed for this to occur.

No its just a conflict between a few teachings. None of the sects have became more liberal.The basic Islamic foundation is still in place and all the sects agree to it.

You also state that the differences are only slight.
Slight enough for Muslims to have been killing each other for centuries over them.

Which Muslims have been have been killing each other?

I personally think that if something is worth killing / dying for then it is something slightly more significant than "slight"!

Which Muslims have been have been killing each other because of "slight"! ?

As stated previously, I think others have more than adequately debated the role of women within Islam with you.

Where please Show me?

You yourself have stated that you believe Sharia Law will be imposed in the UK and that non-believers will be forced to adhere to it's rules.

I said if the majority of the UK population becomes Muslims and wants Sharia Law. Than indeed Sharia Law will be applied.
Isn’t Majority Authority?

Of course you have to follow laws and rules once they have been applied, Being a believer or a non-believer.
Don’t you follow the laws the rules the British government have applied at the moment even if you disagree with it?
Eg. You still have to pay taxes no matter you agree or disagree with it.

Christians are being increasingly persecuted in Muslim countries, yet Muslims demand more and more rights and recognition in Western society.

Shall I start telling you about how Muslims are being prosecuted under the new terrorism laws even though they are not involved in it?

I have come to the opinion that the Western world will always be in conflict with Islam until the Islamic world develops a more tolerant and free thinking approach and the West rids itself of it's self-righteous "we know what's best for you" attitude.

Till the Muslim nations have Natural Resources the West will indeed will always stay in conflict.

Why don’t you get it that Islam will NEVER EVER CHANGE and adapt to liberalism.It hasn’t for the past 1400 years and NEVER WILL.

Understood matey?

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Freeborn

Why don’t you get it that Islam will NEVER EVER CHANGE and adapt to liberalism.It hasn’t for the past 1400 years and NEVER WILL.

Understood matey?

No religion can escape sociological influences.
This is a proven fact.
You said that Islam didn’t change, so tell us what to make of all this Arab nations that are Muslim by religion and culture but chooses to have a secular constitution.
If like you said Islam doesn’t change it will be left behind like many other religions in history which have today partially disappear.
The fact is that right now many Muslim cleric and government are moving for change all around the Muslim world.

Kacou.

Reply to kacou

No religion can escape sociological influences.

Islam has and always will.

This is a proven fact.

Proven fact for other religions. Not for Islam though. Truth doesn’t get effected by sociological influences.

You said that Islam didn’t change, so tell us what to make of all this Arab nations that are Muslim by religion and culture but chooses to have a secular constitution.

No matter how secular the constitution is, it can NEVER change Islam.

If like you said Islam doesn’t change it will be left behind like many other religions in history which have today partially disappear.

It’s the fastest growing religion in the world because it’s the TRUTH.Other disappeared or are disappearing because they are all are turning liberal.

The fact is that right now many Muslim cleric and government are moving for change all around the Muslim world.

What kind of change? I am sure that none of them have became more liberal.Liberalism will be crushed from where ever it comes out.

Originally posted by kangjia57
The Quran, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago, mentioned facts only recently discovered or proven by scientists. This proves without doubt that the Quran must be the literal word of God, revealed by Him to the Prophet Muhammad , and that the Quran was not authored by Muhammad or by any other human being.

Well you caught my interest with the bolded line. What facts are you talking about? Im really quite interested.

reply to post by kangjia57


I really have had enough of this nonsense.
You point blank refuse to admit when you are proven wrong.

All religions change and develop with the times.
That's how they survive.

Your constant denial that culture and religion influence each other beggars belief.

Your apparent ignorance of the age old conflict which periodically occurs between Sunni and Shia Muslims and is currently responsible for countless deaths in Iraq is, well quite frankly, staggering and displays an ignorance of mammoth proportions.

The Terrorism Laws are in place because Muslims committed acts of Terrorism on British soil.
No other reason.
If Muslims hadn't killed innocent men, women and children in the name of their religion of peace then these laws would not be in place.

I am not saying that Muslims are responsible for all the world's ill's.
Of course they are not.
Neither I am saying that all Muslims are terrorists.
Unfortunately though, at the moment, in the UK all the terrorists are Muslims.

Why is it that Muslims refuse to accept any responsiblity for the role they continue to play in the tragedy that is being played out before our very own eyes.
It seems to me that you are in a constant state of denial about your culture, your religion and yourself and the very world we live in.

reply to post by kangjia57


Oh dear, Islam and science.
Not a good mix.



The Ka'Ba.
A stone structure which pre-dates Islam and was previously used as a meeting place to worship local pagan deities.

en.wikipedia.org...

The Ka'Ba really helped those unfortunates who were trampled to death walking around it during their hadj.

Reply to Freeborn

I really have had enough of this nonsense.
You point blank refuse to admit when you are proven wrong.

Where have I been proven wrong?

All religions change and develop with the times.
That's how they survive.

Islam is still surviving without changing. Its been 1400 years now. NOTHINGS CHANGED.

Your constant denial that culture and religion influence each other beggars belief.

Culture and religion are 2 different things. And you fail to realise that.

Your apparent ignorance of the age old conflict which periodically occurs between Sunni and Shia Muslims and is currently responsible for countless deaths in Iraq is, well quite frankly, staggering and displays an ignorance of mammoth proportions.

You keep saying I don’t know anything and than you don’t even provide evidence?
Iraq/Iran war wasn’t over religion. Civil war in Iraq isn’t over religion. Its all their agendas and who gains the upper authority and overall control.

Understand?

The Terrorism Laws are in place because Muslims committed acts of Terrorism on British soil.

Doesn’t mean all Muslims are terrorists.
Doesn’t mean you start taking in ‘suspected’ Muslims hold them for couple months and than later release them after finding No evidence.

If Muslims hadn't killed innocent men, women and children in the name of their religion of peace then these laws would not be in place.

If the West didn’t invade for oil there wouldn’t have been more than a Million Iraqis dead today.

Why is it that Muslims refuse to accept any responsiblity for the role they continue to play in the tragedy that is being played out before our very own eyes.
It seems to me that you are in a constant state of denial about your culture, your religion and yourself and the very world we live in.

Islam is everything to me. Everything I do will be according to Islam.
Isnt the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion ‘a slap on the face’ for all those Islam critics.

We will never accept liberalism.You also fail to understand that.

I would love it if you addressed a few of my more recent posts

specifically this one : Post 1

and this one: here

Reply to InSpiteOf

Well you caught my interest with the bolded line. What facts are you talking about? Im really quite interested.

harunyahya.com...

www.quranandscience.com...

www.ummah.net...

www.islamicity.com...

www.islam101.com...

quranicteachings.co.uk...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Then I guess muslims are making their antagonism towards jews up out of thin air and islam is not a source of that antagonism at all.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is more than adequate to generate tonnes of antagonism on all sides. I'd like to think this is not a religious conflict, but given that one side is jewish, and the other is mostly muslim, it is not surprising how this is a rallying point.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
And thats where all thinking, evolution, progress, learning, growth and happiness end. By proclaiming to have found the "best" truth and ceasing all development of your god-given faculties you ascend to heights of ignorance. Proclaiming to have the "best" rules out striving for better.

What if the 'best' rules tell you to always be striving for better? Who says people should be stagnating in ignorance? Certainly not the Quran. All over the Quran are instructions to learn, to study, to experience. Education is considered one of the greatest jihads (struggles). Even the Hadith extol the virtues of learning (one even mentions going all the way to China to learn, if you must).


Kacou, there are many clearer and more explanatory tellings of Gabriel's first visit to Muhammad. The problem with Ishaq (and in fact most of the Sirat- as opposed to the Hadith) is that they were compiled from compilations, and while most of the errors are very easy to notice, their authenticity is not guaranteed to the level of the hadith. Besides, even Mary was scared when Gabriel first came to her. When Gabriel came to Muhammad and told him to "Read!", he didn't respond because he was illiterate. He didn't know HOW to read. There was no 'choking' involved.


About culture and religion, I'd say there is a very huge and vast difference between the two. Just because some people choose to mix them, doesn't mean that Islam is effected by it. Some examples:

According to Islam, all that you need to get married is a contract and a witness (and the bride and groom, of course). Of course, most people are not satisfied with this, so they want something according to their culture: Southeast Asians might adopt parts of an Indian wedding, westerners might want to adopt part of Western styled weddings, etc. This infusion of culture is not WRONG, so long as it does not violate any of the base islamic injunctions.

Another example is the Pashtunwala code of the Afghanistan/Pakistan pathans. These people might be muslims, but they are also pathans, and retain much of their own code and culture, even though it might be in conflict with Islam. Such an instance would be the tit-for-tat punishments that go to such extremes as 'You raped my sister, so I get to rape yours'. This is certainly not islamic.


PS: On a somewhat different note, I've seen so many arguments in this thread about 'Oh, I'd say this, but muslims always respond in [blah] generic fashion. How can you argue with that?'. Just to point out, there is no bewilderment or silence on my part.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by babloyi]

reply to post by kangjia57


Thanks for the links, ill take a look at what I can (im at work so i cant view the youtube links)

is there any specific pages which will highlight such discoveries in the quran tha t modern science only recently discovered? (pressed for time)

Do you have anything to say about the first post I linked to?



As a note of clarification, i dont feel that muslims are wrong, evil, or vicious. I joined this thread in hopes to educate myself a little and clear up some misconceptions.

Originally posted by babloyi

What if the 'best' rules tell you to always be striving for better? Who says people should be stagnating in ignorance? Certainly not the Quran. All over the Quran are instructions to learn, to study, to experience. Education is considered one of the greatest jihads (struggles). Even the Hadith extol the virtues of learning (one even mentions going all the way to China to learn, if you must).

Thank goodness learning is valued. But you cant deny that feeling that one has already arrived at "the best" and that it must remain unchanged (as the poster kangji puts it) contradicts the idea of improvement and reform. Stagnation easily leads to decay.

Besides, even Mary was scared when Gabriel first came to her.

I judge a spirit by whether it causes love or fear (the wicked and manipulative spirits).

Just to point out, there is no bewilderment or silence on my part.

Am I right in assuming that you live in a non-islamic country?

Reply to InSpiteOf

is there any specific pages which will highlight such discoveries in the Quran that modern science only recently discovered? (pressed for time)

I am not sure about specific pages in Quran but I am still researching on it.But if you go on those sites you will see how quotes from Quran proved these discoveries being made now.

Do you have anything to say about the first post I linked to?

In response to the chimp article:

www.beliefnet.com...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Thank goodness learning is valued. But you cant deny that feeling that one has already arrived at "the best" and that it must remain unchanged (as the poster kangji puts it) contradicts the idea of improvement and reform. Stagnation easily leads to decay.

The central commandment always has, and always will remain the same- worship God and do good deeds.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Am I right in assuming that you live in a non-islamic country?

Nope. Currently I'm living in an 'excessively islamic country' , as far as lip service to islam goes.

reply to post by babloyi


Thanks for the firm and quick answers. I apologize for current and future beatings of fundamentalist islam.

It was with much thought that I joined in on this thread.
I have done so on other one's and they too degenerated into slanging matches.

I know I have contributed to this.
But to enter into a civilized debate and discussion both sides must be prepared to listen and consider the other viewpoint.
Unfortunately that seems impossible with kangjia.
His blind acceptance of Sharia and the teachings of the Koran proves infuriating and eventually causes me to reply in kind. :shk:

I should know better. :bash: :bnghd: