The vile rants of the Koran

If you can get killed for posting information, you know you are reporting a real conspiracy

The reasoning I keep hearing from muslims and their apologists is "Well, those Jihadists are extremists. Islam is the religion of peace". But this reasoning is at odds with the teachings of Islam themselves.

If there is any conspiracy against liberty, freedom, human rights and common decency, then this "holy" book is the manual for it. It actually teaches that peace is for cowards and that all non-believers must be slain and held in fear and terror.

Among ATS members there is a lot of siding with islamic countries and against the "evil" forces (USA and allies). But upon close inspection, the teachings of Islam are incompatible with civilized demeanor, progress, freedom, democracy.

Quotes from the Koran promoting violence and hatred:

Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Sura (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you,"

Sura (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve

Sura (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them" (referring to non-belíevers of Allah).

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Sura (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Sura (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Sura (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Sura (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."

Sura (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Sura (4:89) - "But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

Sura (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Sura (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Sura (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."

Sura (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Sura (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"


Sura (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.


Sura (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."

Sura (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Sura (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise

Sura (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."


Sura (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."

Sura (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Sura (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"

Sura (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness."

Sura (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Sura (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are ruthless against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Sura (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."

More quotes and information


This was only a small selection. The tip of the iceberg. We could easily go on to highlight koran and hadith texts that talk about jews and christians being pigs that can be slaughtered, about women being worth less than men, about muslims who kill for Allah not going to hell...but I will spare you the gruesome details for now.

For all you apologists out there: Where is the evil really coming from?

Come to think of it...if anyone here at ATS where find to talk like Mohammed did in the Hadith or like some of the Koran does, we would be banned from membership according to the T & C "Courtesy is Mandatory".

reply to post by Skyfloating


In your opinion; is Christianity fundamentally engraved in the Old Testament?
If yes then every thing that you have pinpointed from the Koran can be find also in the Old Testament if not worst.
Christian don’t deny or refute the Old Testament, it is they bases.
So in my view, all religion one way or another are preaching for self righteousness in the expanse of the weak, therefore engaging them self in a never ending struggle with violence.

As for your post, I don’t know much about the Koran so I will leave this to some that have study it.

Kacou.

Originally posted by kacou

In your opinion; is Christianity fundamentally engraved in the Old Testament? If yes then every thing that you have pinpointed from the Koran can be find also in the Old Testament if not worse.

I actually added this thread because we already have enough threads pointing out the pro´s and cons of christianity in this Forum.

Muslims themselves often point out what you just pointed out: "Christianity is worse!" The Old Testament being bad, does not excuse the bads of the Koran, though.

As you can gather from my other posts, I am not a Christian. But I´d rather not debate whats "the worse religion".

As for your post, I don’t know much about the Koran so I will leave this to some that have study it.

Well...arent the quotes above revealing enough? After reading them, I am not really interested in studying the book anymore.

reply to post by Skyfloating


You seem to be very connected with your spirituality.
Why would you choose to respond to Muslim that glorifies they faith in a such a way?
Don’t you think that your approach is a continuation of duality which is in contrary to true spiritualism because it divide humans and don’t give space for any reunification in freedom?
This questions is because I am surprise of this post coming from you, surely is another way to approach this matter other then just pinpointing all wrongs about this religion.

What do you think?

Kacou

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Well...arent the quotes above revealing enough? After reading them, I am not really interested in studying the book anymore.

That is a horrible, horrible attitude. If you stuck to that attitude, you'd never find out that most of those quotes are misquotes, out-of-context quotes, lies, and juggling of verses. They've been posted millions of times, and I've responded to them half a million times. Unfortunately, it seems that I don't have the energy and strength of a website full of hate-fueled anti-islamists. Perhaps a link will suffice this time?

www.belowtopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is also 'just the tip of the iceberg'. But who listens?

[edit on 15-1-2008 by babloyi]

Reply to Skyfloating

The reasoning I keep hearing from muslims and their apologists is "Well, those Jihadists are extremists. Islam is the religion of peace". But this reasoning is at odds with the teachings of Islam themselves.

Yes Islam indeed is ‘the religion of peace’.

What you have done is taking all those quotes out of their CONTEXT.

How about you REPOST your topic with the whole of those Surahs.

This was only a small selection. The tip of the iceberg. We could easily go on to highlight koran and hadith texts that talk about jews and christians being pigs that can be slaughtered, about women being worth less than men, about muslims who kill for Allah not going to hell...but I will spare you the gruesome details for now.

If it wasn’t the religion of peace there wouldn’t be 1.2Bil Muslims following it and the numbers of converts wouldn’t keep increasing at the fastest rate than any other religion.

And Where does it say women worth less than a man?

but I will spare you the gruesome details for now.

How about read the Quran yourself properly instead of researching on Propaganda websites to increase your own negative ideas towards Islam.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Sura (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."

Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."


Sura (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

This right here which I quoted has all of the basic concepts of modern Jihadist, Islamic Fundamentalism, and Islamic Terrorism wrapped up neatly into a few paragraphs from tha source..

I'm glad Jesus was a peaceful man, that he advocated peace in all things, and that the only dirt that people can find in the Christian Bible regarding violence and killing are Old Testament accounts of Israelite tribal violence.

Jesus and Mohammed were so much different that you don't even have to cite the differences, you can just put them side by side, and it becomes glaringly clear.

Reply to Kangjia57:


oh of course. Its ALL taken out of context. In which context should I put manslaughter and the denigration of jews then?

This post comes after returning from a trip to israel & egypt where I talked to many muslims on international affairs. Most muslims I talked to were of the opinion that jews should be wiped out.

I returned from the trip deeply shaken and confused at all the hatred, my tolerant attitude had taken a beat.

So I roam the internet in search of answers "Why are these people so very intolerant?". The quotes from the Koran explain it to me.

Why is it that I there is no threat of me getting killed when publishing anti-christian information, but posting anti-islamic information?



[edit on 15-1-2008 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by babloyi
That is a horrible, horrible attitude. If you stuck to that attitude, you'd never find out that most of those quotes are misquotes, out-of-context quotes, lies, and juggling of verses. They've been posted millions of times, and I've responded to them half a million times. Unfortunately, it seems that I don't have the energy and strength of a website full of hate-fueled anti-islamists. Perhaps a link will suffice this time?
[edit on 15-1-2008 by babloyi]

Well, I had a look at your apologist links and writings. So, it is ME who is hate-filled, and not those quotes?

Your re-interpretation of scripture in all honour but I would say there are good mulsims despitewhat is taught, not because of it.

Originally posted by kacou

You seem to be very connected with your spirituality.
Why would you choose to respond to Muslim that glorifies they faith in a such a way?
Don’t you think that your approach is a continuation of duality which is in contrary to true spiritualism because it divide humans and don’t give space for any reunification in freedom?
This questions is because I am surprise of this post coming from you, surely is another way to approach this matter other then just pinpointing all wrongs about this religion.

What do you think?

From a holistic point of view, you are entirely correct. In private I promote appreciation of other cultures and religions.

From a ATS-debate point of you, where debate is the aim, its a different matter.

You see I for one see the world as no boundary or frontier.
What I do in ATS or outside have for me to be on the same consistence if not I may enrol my self in double game of mind.
You have mention that you where in Egypt and been very surprise about the animosity of the Arabs against the Jew. I have work in the Middle East (8 years in all) and I also found this animosity that you wrote about. But this hostility has never taken the better of me despite some discussion that I had once about the concept of God with some artist and intellectual in Amman. You could be sure that some people there was very disturb about the way I was trying to reinvent God. I am sure that I was hated more then Jew.
And I finally understood that the pursuit of truth is for every one to grasp as it is for every one to experience but not to be indulged to other.
Threw your post I hope that something positive will spring out and make the way for more understanding.
Kacou.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Are you hate-filled? I don't know. Those websites must be fueled with SOMETHING. They keep churning out the same stuff again and again and again in defiance of all logic.
I'm not apologising for anything, sorry, you can't degrade what I said by adding such silly labels to it. As for re-interpretations, taking the verses runetag quoted, for an example, it is interesting how parts of the surah have been selectively taken and removed. Some parts that were removed:

Surah 9:4 (Yusuf Ali Translation)
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.

Surah 9:6 (Yusuf Ali Translation)
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

Surah 9:12-13 (Yusuf Ali Translation)
But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

It is very obvious that it is talking about a time of battle. I'll be the first to admit that the Quran clearly states that you are allowed to fight back when attacked (something that Christians don't think is mentioned in the Bible), but then, I'd think that fighting for your right to exist is nothing evil.

Originally posted by kacou
You see I for one see the world as no boundary or frontier.

yes. but my world of "peace" does not mean everyone having the same opinion or not pointing out wrongs.

Originally posted by babloyi

Are you hate-filled? I don't know. Those websites must be fueled with SOMETHING. They keep churning out the same stuff again and again and again in defiance of all logic.

While that website is a bit too extremist for me too, if not to say, islamophobic, I can safely state that islamic values and lifestyles do not match those of the west. Ive been scolded for showing affection to my girlfriend in public (a kiss on the cheek) and for wearing swimming trunks after getting out of the water. Its these simple things I find offensive.

Do the value systems have to match? No, of course not. Its quite alright for them to differ radically. It is not ok when the attempt is made to impose them on the rest of the world.

It is very obvious that it is talking about a time of battle. I'll be the first to admit that the Quran clearly states that you are allowed to fight back when attacked (something that Christians don't think is mentioned in the Bible), but then, I'd think that fighting for your right to exist is nothing evil.

From the Hadith:


Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Im not amused.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Where does it say women worth less than a man?

I lived in Saudi Arabia for several months. I can tell you first-hand that women are less than second-class citizens. They can't drive a car, or even sit in the front seat with their husband. Goats, on the other hand can sit up front in a car, and often do.

Women can't use the front door at most resturants, can't talk to men, and have to keep covered up with black sheets to make sure they don't tempt men with their evil bodies. The jealousy level is extreme to the point that they aren't allowed to acknowledge males that are not direct family members. When you're talking to another man you just pretend his wife isn't standing beside him. She's invisible as far as you're concerned. I'd say she was a dog on a leash, but at least you're allowed to say "hi" to a dog.

All the things that women take for granted in the West, voting, holding a job, talking to the bus driver, going shopping, wearing a pretty dress, having fun with girlfriends, or just driving to the store. That's all gone in the Islamic society I lived in.

But please, carry on and tell us how great women have it in Islam.

Reply to dbates

I dont think you understood my question properly.

Let me repeat again Clearly.

Where does it say women are worth less than a man in Islam?

And please dont involve cultural practises.

Reply to Skyfloating

Islam and its teachings have ALWAYS stayed the same,WILL always stay the same.NOTHiNG will be changed no matter what the West thinks.

If you dont like it than keep away from it SIMPLE.

And if you dont like the views of being 'the unbeliever' according to Islam Than i invite you to become a Muslim and become part of us.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Skyfloating
Islam and its teachings have ALWAYS stayed the same,WILL always stay the same.NOTHiNG will be changed no matter what the West thinks.

If you dont like it than keep away from it SIMPLE.

And if you dont like the views of being 'the unbeliever' according to Islam Than i invite you to become a Muslim and become part of us.

Discussions with many muslims have ended this way. You present them the facts. They deny it. You present more facts. Then they say: "Well, if you dont like it, then keep away!!!!"

Originally posted by kangjia57
And please dont involve cultural practises.

I know, it's convenient to write this off as just cultural practices, but it's odd that any-time we see Islamic ruled government, their culture tends to gravitate towards what I described. This isn't a big deal to you because you're not a woman living in an Islamic controlled society. How do I know this? Because you're using a computer to communicate with other men. That's a flogging or a beating with a shoe in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, or Iran. They all have such interesting "cultural practises" (sic) in these countries. Odd how they are all quite similar. I wonder what the connection is?