Eric Phelps, the Jesuits and the Freemasons

Originally posted by mmmeat
So ... which is it? Is it sold or not sold on Amazon (keep in mind that I did check)?

The updated version isn't sold on amazon, they offer a second-hand version online for over 10 times the cost of the new updated version, they refused to take the updated version from Phelps (and that was the situation up until last week, the Updated version is Vatican Assassins III, over 1800 pages, the old version is somewhere 500 pages). The major bookstores banned the book from their shelves, they told Phelps they would only offer it if someone specifically requested but they wouldn't stock it on any of the shelves, while at the same time Ickes books and other "conspiracy" books were being sold off the shelves. I checked amazon again and the new version isn't offered, only second-hand versions of the old book, and I wrote to Eric Phelps himself and this was his reply

the basics are these:

1. No mainstream bookseller would carry VA; they would order it if a
customer so desired. This is an indirect form of banning a book.

2. VA could not be openly shipped into England, as we had to write like a
child in addressing the parcels or they would be returned.

3. Amazon only sold used copies.

I trust this is helpful.

Eric Phelps

[edit on 18-1-2008 by iezuit]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

 

I am not directly interested in Phelps, more on the opinion of Freemasons on what Phelps says.

That is a clear contradiction, of course you are interested in Phelps or his work, otherwise his name wouldn't have featured in the title of your thread. Asking people who have never read his work, is even more ridiculous. And you expect an honest answer from freemasons who are bound by SECTRET oaths You do understand what taking a secret oath means, and for obvious reasons the closer someone is to the truth the less they want you to know about it...otherwise there would be no need for the secrecy!!!

reply to post by iezuit


Apparently you still do not understand what "self published" means. Anyone can self publish, and everyone that self publishes can rarely get their book sold by an actual retailer. As I said before, the reason is obvious - if your book is so bad that a publisher refuses to print it and you have to pay to print it yourself, no retailer is going to be interested. Its call a vanity press - people who publish their own books - because it fools the less intelligent among us to think they are "published," when in reality they have done nothing.

Originally posted by iezuit
You are mistaken, unlike you I have read Phelps book, he only shows his disgust towards people who are involved in murders and corruption.

Which is why his book is of such marginal interest. At least try and read what others have to say. As I have clearly stated I have read the information on Phelps' website. If you want to publicise his book then do so, you have your own thread on the subject. You asked me not to contribute there and I respected that request, now can you respond to the points raised in my post on the bottom of page one in this thread or not.

As I stated there, Phelps is not a historian, if he was he would not be taking such a biased position. The history speaks for itself, there is no need to lace it with hatred and vitriol. There is no nation or people, who have not at one point crossed over the line to savagery and mass murder and while it would be nice to blame the Vatican for all the misery in the world, this is far from the truth. I personally believe in free will, and I also recognise that man has and will be cruel, ruthless and murderous. Very little persausion is necessary. Phelps is no better than anyone else that spreads hatred.

People like Phelps while assuming the moral high ground are no better than the successive Popes that have spread fervour. He is biased, he has an agenda and above all else he thinks he is right. Your trust in his historical awareness only demonstrates your own glaring ignorance.

History is full of murder and mayhem, unfortunately it is in our nature. Our eyes are at the front, we are predators, and we at times hunt our own species. If Phelps was a true christian, then he would understand that the only way to prevent this is to educate without bias, to demonstrate that we are all flawed and concerned with our self-preservation.

If you have nothing to add to the debate other than to pimp Phelps' book them i suggest you go back to your own thread on Phelps' 'position' and carrying on talking to yourself. You calim to have verified the veracity of his comments, then prove that you have done so. Demonstrate how you verfied that the Freemasons are controlled by the Jesuits as Phelps claims.

Originally posted by iezuit
Even Otto Von Bismarck threw the Jesuits out of Germany, and tried to remove the Roman Catholic church from his empire, and that certainly wasn't driven out of hate, it was done out of a desire to free Germany from the corruption of the Vatican.

Again, you may benefir from reading my post at the bottom of page one. Von Bismarck and Prussia was a product of those 'Enlightened Despots' that I referred to, namely Frederick the Great. And, yes he did banish the Jesuits because he felt that they gave the people ideas and that they interferred with state matters. He was right they did. They provided free education, elevating the expectations of the lower classes.

What Phelps fails to address is what von Bismarck's motives were. He was attempting to create a secular state, he did not want revenues from tax to go to the church, he wanted it all for the state. The Prussians were fervent Nationalist, the declaration of the Primacy and Infallibility of the Pope generated unrest amongst the Protestant Prussians who felt that Catholics were therefore incapable of loyalty to the state. As a result of propaganda, much of it from England and France, the Prussians felt that the Catholics were a threat to the State and would rise up against them if the Pope so ordered. It was paranoia, but not without precident. i have no desire to whitewash the Vatican, the real history speaks for itself, but nor do I wish to exonerate others.

Prussia had numerous social problems which were exacerbated by the absence of the Church. The rulers of Prussia had successively excluded Catholics, only to find that the vaccumn that they left was not filled, leading to ill health, moral degredation and lack of education. Protestants were less inclined to offer charity and freebies, their beliefs being more self-centred and insular, not to mention a lack of leadership. This is where the Freemasons, in my opinion, offer a valuable service to the secular state.

While I commend anyone for exploring history, one book will never suffice and tell the whole story. Phelps should serve as your starting block and not form the entire basis of your opinion. He only tells one side of the story. I recommend that you look into the history of Poland and the impact that von Bismarck's policy of Kulturkampf had there. While the Vatican has committed atrocity and mass murder, so did others, and without any direction from the Pope. They did it because they wanted the power that the Pope had. Two wrongs don't make a right. Neither groups is any better than the other, they both wish to subjugate us and profit from us.

The Jesuits while by no means blameless, were the first to offer free education to the poor and for this, I for one, am eternally grateful. The effect that this education has had upon us, the ability to see our leaders for what they are as rendered the Jesuits pariahs to power successively through history. The Jesuits it should be noted were not only suppressed by the secular and protestant states but also by the Vatican itself. The Counter Reformation was not about simply destroying the Protestants, it was about raising the morality of the corrupt RCC. The Jesuits were only able to convert so many back to the RCC because of the tyranny of the leaders and rulers, and the lack of charity, care and education administered by the protestant middle classes. Two sides to every story, that is worth remembering. Only when you have examined both and bit more besides will you be in position to form your own opinion instead of touting Phelps' for him.

Originally posted by iezuit

The Vatican is "Openly" against freemasonry. We all know the Vatican has lied about a great many things, lying about Freemasonry being one of the least of their crimes.

The Origins of Freemasonry lie with the Knights Templars who served the Pope.

Do mean the same Vatican that burned them at the stake for being heretics?If there was a Conspiracy with the church and the Templars do you not think that they would have let them live?

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


You have a most arrogant assumption that I haven't read other books, I have read hundreds of historical books, making such an assumption does you know credit, and is based on what? Your preconceived notions about Phelps and your obvious personal grudge against him, depsite your own admission that you haven't even read his book and presumably you have never had any contact with him, you display a very narrow-minded view based on an article you read in a NewYork newspaper, and I already answered you with what a NewYork newspaper editior himself thinks of NY journalists.
You are being childish saying I asked you not to respond to the thread which was intended to discuss Napoloens proven links to the Jesuit Order, if you read that thread you will see I never asked you not to post there, I merely pointed out how ridiculous it was for you to set yourself up as some kind of authority on a book you have never read.
Phelps has an indepth knowlegde of history and if you conversed with him you would be surprised at his detpth of knowledge. What you call "biased", I call highlighting the corruption and where it is coming from. I won't agree with everything he says, but I see that he is correct on much of his information, and he is always willing to stand corrected on any issue. His website doesn't have alot of information, if anyone was to want further details on info he has highlighted it is worth reading his book or contacting him as I did (incidentally I grew up a Roman Catholic and briefly studied for the preisthood before deciding against it).

You clearly know very little of the Vaticans current position as the leaders of what is known as the NWO, and you don't know enough about the Vaticans history. If you don't want to read Phelps book then why not read The Vatican Ratline, The Nazis and The New World Order, or The Unholy Trinity, or US intell & The Nazis, or The Real Odessa, or Hitlers Pope, and so on. The Vatican links to both Hitlers Nazis, and the British and American Intel agencies become clear.

I would have assumed most (or even all) readers of this conspiracy site that speaks much of the New World Order would have a much larger understanding of the Vaticans role at the head of it.

I posted a clip someone made discussing some of the info regarding the Vaticans role at the head of the NWO on this thread , it is an amatuer presentation but he understands much of what is going on.

Phelps is assuming the moral high-ground, because unlike the hypocritical Vatican he is not responsible for killing or torturing people, the Vatican is responsible for millions of deaths as well as tortures, and a study of what went on in Croatia under the supervision of the Roman Catholic church, with priests even commiting much of the atrocities, will turn your stomach. And a look at the instruments the Catholic Church used to torture people during their Inquisitions is totally sick. Even people who owned a bible were tortured and killed by the Catholic priests. If you truly study the history of the Catholic Church and try to imagine the horrors the victims suffered, you will permit Phelps to feel he is on some sort of higher ground than those murderers.

You attack Phelps ased on ignorance, by your own admission you haven't read his work, and presumably never had any contact with him, when I defend him, because I have actually read his work, you say it is "pimping", how juvenile is that.

You wish to know how I verified some of Phelps claims, I first asked him direct questions about anything I wished to know (unlike you, I never took the approach that he was right or wrong until I looked into it further), and I also did much of my own research, as for Freemasons, I have made contact with various Freemasons...

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

cont...
I have made contact with numerous freemasons, considering they take secret oaths, we can only expect to learn so much from them, but there is a few high-level individuals who have been willing to discuss various topics. If you made the effort (instead of asking a very loaded question to Freemasons on this "conspiracy site" who obviously have an agenda) you would also be able to learn much, and the Vaticans connections to Freemasons isn't so very difficult to find.

As for Von Bismarck, you call him a "product" of a despot, Frederick the Great. Fredericvk The Great was a high-level Freemason, he was one of the most important freemasons in Europe in his time. If you study Napoleons treatment of Prussia you will learn that he left Frederick in his position, despite him deposing other monarchs and repeated calls from France to remove him.

Anyone who studies the history of the Jesuits know they provided education with the sole purpose of winning people to the control of the Roman Catholic Church, and that is why they were again banned from Russia! The Jesuits set up Catholic schools as a very successful means of winning many Protestants back to the catholic church. You clearly have failed to understand alot, and you don't have to go to Phelps to confirm any of that, just do some research on the purpose behind the Jesuit schools. The felt that by "educating" people in schools, away from their parents, that they would win large numbers of people over, and they did.

I have studied Bismarck, not only in my school years where he was one of the essays I concentrated on, but I have quized Phelps on his understanding of Bismarck also, it is clear you have no idea of what Phelps understanding of Bismarck was, and you prefer to jump to ill-advised conclusions. You even highlight that Bismarck and the Prussians were fearful of a Jesuit attempt to hijack their society. And your view of Freemasons is very misguided, are you suggesting that the ordinary people need to be ruled by a secret society (and why do they need secrets, and you will find they will likely agree with you that they should rule)?
I never said one book would suffice, you have made that statement based on nothing I have said.
I already explained why they offered education, it was one of their successful methods to fight to Protestant/Lutheran reformation.
To be grateful to the Jesuits shows a big misunderstanding of both their motives and their position in the world today.
Have you found it curious that Stalin attended a THEOLIGICAL school, which was run by undercover Jesuits (they were surpressed in Russia at the time so worked as Orthodox), Stalin himself told that they were Jesuits running the school. The year Stalin became secretary of the communist party the Jesuit Order was restored in Russia, 1922!!! Don't you find that significant, why would the Bolshevik revolution place a priority on restoring the jesuits, especially considering their supposed opposition to religion! I am sure you already know about the Bolshevik Purges of the "heretical" Orthodox church, isn't it interesting that Stalins old headmaster, Archbishop Demetrius if I recall correct, survived the purges!!!
The restoration of the Jesuits in Russia coincided with the Bolshevik Revolution, and we both know the russian people have no reason to feel grateful of that, how many millions dead.
The restoration of the Jesuits in Europe also coincided with the French Revolution period and the ending of Napoleons reign!! And a Jesuit Abbe was Napoleons second council. Also interesting that it is well documented that Napoleon was openly against freemasonry and secret societies, yet his membership of the Grand Lodge in Paris is well documented, even Napoleons initiation is mentioned in many sources.

I feel you have a lot to learn about the Vaticans true covert power

There was a reason why the Vatican surpressed the Templars, but yes I mean the same Vatican, of course. The Vatican then gave the power and wealth the Templars had to the older order that is now known as the Knights of Malta. If you look at the leaders of many of the worlds biggest businesses you will find links to the Knights of Malta, such as Rupert Murdoch and Rockefellar and so forth. The Knights of Malta serve the Vatican. You will also find links between the CIA and British intel and the Knights of Malta, Dulles and GH Bush for example, showing links between the CIA and the Vatican, it is worth researching

[edit on 18-1-2008 by iezuit]

In one thread Rockafeller is a blood drinking reptile and/or satanist, in the next he is in the Knights of Malta, and sworn to serve the Pope.Sounds like he has a hard time figuring out what side to be on.....or maybe all of these theories are nonsense?No that would make too much sense, much better to make wild unverified/unverifyable claims and then put the burden of proof on the person NOT making outrageous claims.

Originally posted by iezuit
(unlike you, I never took the approach that he was right or wrong until I looked into it further), and I also did much of my own research, as for Freemasons, I have made contact with various Freemasons...

*Ding, ding ding!* Anyone who assumes that some fantastical and unproven theory is right off the bat says EVERYTHING we need to know. Also - you act like making contact with masons is somehow "unique." What did you do when they told you that you were wrong? Of course, I assume that you actually met real freemasons and not fakemasons.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


you are only high-lighting your complete ignorance of the matter, you haven't read Phelps book, so you have no idea what is proven or what isn't, I looked up much of his information and looked for further evidence elsewhere (I was already well aware of much of the Vatican links to nazism, the inquisitions persecution of jews and so forth) I realised Phelps was correct in much of his work.

It really is pathetic when people who have never read Phelps work, and only the very vaguest idea of the info in his book are claiming to know what he has written and how much of it is verified. If you haven't read his book, then you obviously are in no position to refute what he has documented

Originally posted by masonica_esoterica
In one thread Rockafeller is a blood drinking reptile and/or satanist, in the next he is in the Knights of Malta, and sworn to serve the Pope.Sounds like he has a hard time figuring out what side to be on.....or maybe all of these theories are nonsense?No that would make too much sense, much better to make wild unverified/unverifyable claims and then put the burden of proof on the person NOT making outrageous claims.

Now you really have gone to the ridiculous and are mixing up Ickes reptilian claims (based on nothing but heresay, by Ickes own admission) with correct research which can be verified.

If you research the Rockefellars, you will find not only very strong links to funding of Nazi Germany, you will also find they have very strong links to Big Pharma, and they are Knights of Malta, who are sworn to serve the Pope. You clearly no NOTHING about Phelps book. You will find information about the Rockefellars in many sources which can be verified.

Originally posted by iezuit

Originally posted by mmmeat
So ... which is it? Is it sold or not sold on Amazon (keep in mind that I did check)?

The updated version isn't sold on amazon, they offer a second-hand version online for over 10 times the cost of the new updated version, they refused to take the updated version from Phelps (and that was the situation up until last week, the Updated version is Vatican Assassins III, over 1800 pages, the old version is somewhere 500 pages).

How strange. I just checked (again) on Amazon, and they are selling Vatican Assassins version 3 (published in 2007, with an ISBN of 0979373409) for $40.00.

So ... the 'updated version' that isn't sold on Amazon is currently for sale on Amazon.

Poof! Your argument goes right out the window!

[quote[The major bookstores banned the book from their shelves, they told Phelps they would only offer it if someone specifically requested but they wouldn't stock it on any of the shelves, while at the same time Ickes books and other "conspiracy" books were being sold off the shelves.
Bookstores don't stock MANY books. That doesn't mean they're banned, it just means that they either don't sell, or don't sell quickly. It's pretty clear that you have no idea how retail works. How the publishing industry works, or have any idea at all about bookstores. So, again...

Poof! Your argument goes right out the window!

And - just for your information, Icke's books sell.

1. No mainstream bookseller would carry VA; they would order it if a customer so desired. This is an indirect form of banning a book.

Nope. Its a form of retail sales, where items that sell are stocked and items that don't aren't. Pretty simple, really.

VA could not be openly shipped into England, as we had to write like a child in addressing the parcels or they would be returned.

Unbelievable. Utterly unbelievable.

Amazon only sold used copies.

The 2007 versions of the diatribe written by Phelps are listed as "NEW." REFERENCE

I trust this is helpful.

Very. It shows that the poster as well as the author are woefully uninformed about how books are published, marketed and sold. As a vanity publisher, you'd think that at least the author would know where his new books were being sold...

As I've previously noted:

Originally posted by mmmeat
You're barking up the wrong tree, dude; the guy self-publishes, that means that no one wants to publish it, he doesn't have an agent, and no one wants to market it but the writer.

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by mmmeat
How strange. I just checked (again) on Amazon, and they are selling Vatican Assassins version 3 (published in 2007, with an ISBN of 0979373409) for $40.00.

Up until last week when I contacted amazon myself, they weren't offering the new version of VA III, I contacted Phelps himself, and he said amazon refused to take VAIII, I again checked amazon now, and I still don't see it offered, but if the situation has changed it is very recent, you obviously are not aware of the previous situation, even on a thread last week another poster took the same sceptical approach as you, and then after checking themselves, they returned and posted that they couldn't buy VAIII from amazon. So if amazon have decided to sell it, it is a new development, BUT, I have just checked amazon.com again and I typed Vatican Assassins III (and eric phelps) in their search engine and they still only offer a second hand version of the old book, so I don't know where you are getting this from. Anyone here can check amazon.com, they will see that they don't offer VAIII. If you have doubts why not contact either amazon or eric phelps himself. The bookstores can take books from any sources they choose. If the situation with amazon has changed then it is very recent, but searching for the book in amazons search engine didn't yield any result

[edit on 18-1-2008 by iezuit]

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
Do some research and you will find that you are wrong...and that every "conspiracy site" is not a research source, I find that laughable that you think they are, I say credible source I mean "PEER REVIEWED ACADEMIC JOURNAL" which if you had any insight into proper research would know has nothing to do with "mainstream" approval.

I will assume you have failed to look at the links or research any of the info I alluded to. And if you are a freemason yourself you will have your own agenda and considering you are bound by secret oaths then you will hardly share alot of information about Freemasonry with others.

For others who do want to learn more of Vatican connections to Freemasonry, I already posted a link that is of significance, and I assumed on a "conspiracy" site, that most users would be aware of much of this already. For others who have yet to understand the position of the Vatican at the head of the NWO and their connection ot Freemasonry, well, you should find that info if you make an effort to search for it. If you have yet to search for it, then why not do a search on 33 Degree Freemason SAPIENTIA, in any search engine, or ask a reliable source etc. The do a search on SAPIENTIA on its own, the links between 33 degree Freemasonry and the Vatican will become obvious.

Lightindarkness, I would tell you do some real research and you will find it is you who is wrong (or if you are a freemason you likely know this already, but simply don't want to say it here)

Originally posted by iezuit

Originally posted by mmmeat
How strange. I just checked (again) on Amazon, and they are selling Vatican Assassins version 3 (published in 2007, with an ISBN of 0979373409) for $40.00.

Up until last week when I contacted amazon myself, they weren't offering the new version of VA III, I contacted Phelps himself, and he said amazon refused to take VAIII, I again checked amazon now, and I still don't see it offered, but if the situation has changed it is very recent, you obviously are not aware of the previous situation, even on a thread last week another poster took the same sceptical approach as you, and then after checking themselves, they returned and posted that they couldn't buy VAIII from amazon. So if amazon have decided to sell it, it is a new development, BUT, I have just checked amazon.com again and I typed Vatican Assassins III (and eric phelps) in their search engine and they still only offer a second hand version of the old book, so I don't know where you are getting this from. Anyone here can check amazon.com, they will see that they don't offer VAIII. If you have doubts why not contact either amazon or eric phelps himself. The bookstores can take books from any sources they choose. If the situation with amazon has changed then it is very recent, but searching for the book in amazons search engine didn't yield any result

I don't believe you contacted Amazon yourself.

I don't believe that you contacted Phelps.

I don't believe your claim that someone agreed with you and couldn't find the "book."

I don't believe that you "just checked amazon.com" at all.

I don't believe you know anything about retail or how bookstores work.

Here's the main problem with anything you've said - especially anything that says you've done any type of research on anything, ever:

I posted a link in my prior post to the page where Amazon is selling the Phelps book.

And, by doing so, I obviously did Phelps a tremendous favor, because there were 6 books for sale when I checked, and now - only a short time later in the day - they're all sold out. I think he owes me a copy of his book, autographed, and a hearty 'thanks, meat!'

Because you wrote what you did, after I provided a link (that - as you said in your post - 'anyone here can check') it has become painfully obvious that you haven't got a clue AND you don't know how to research. If you can't follow a simple link, how can anything you post every be trusted as being truthful or legitimate?

Your pal,
Meat.

P.S. While amazon doesn't currently have any more of the Phelps nonsense available, the page is still available (showing that they do sell the book, and that it's currently ranked (at the time of this post at #3,446,451 in Books) for anyone that's willing to follow the link in my prior post.

[edit on 18-1-2008 by mmmeat]

Originally posted by iezuit

Originally posted by mmmeat
How strange. I just checked (again) on Amazon, and they are selling Vatican Assassins version 3 (published in 2007, with an ISBN of 0979373409) for $40.00.

Up until last week when I contacted amazon myself,

Hee hee hee!

I totally missed it, but I had to come back and post again.

Dude, when you quoted me, you included the part where I'd written the ISBN number of Phelp's diatribe.

Now, that - by itself - isn't anything special ... until anyone who reads this realizes that YOU CAN LOOK UP BOOKS AT AMAZON BY ISBN.

So, Major Research, I'm now laughing at you.

All of your posing is exposed; you don't research at all. You obviously don't even know how! EVERYONE knows you can look up books with title, author or ISBN number!

AND ... if you DID find the older version of Phelps collection of words over at amazon, all you have to do is CLICK ON THE AUTHOR'S NAME to find all of the books Amazon sells from that author. Hell, that's how I found the book in the first place. Duh.

Hee hee hee!

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by mmmeat
you don't research at all. You obviously don't even know how! EVERYONE knows you can look up books with title, author or ISBN number!

You appear to be one mixed up dude why do you type like that, can't you make your point without acting the twit. I have researched a great many things, the workings of amazon.com taking the least of priorities. Most people wishing to access amazon.com from the net lookup www.amazon.com and if you search for Phelps book or vatican assassins III there you wpon't find it, other posters have said the same thing, you are making a ridiculous arguement, you appear to imagine you are being clever, don't you realise nobody else has found phelps VA III on amazon either, otherwise they would have simply included the link here. A search of eric phelps name on www.amazon.com will find you his older version for $500, or second -hand copies. His updated VA III isn't offered there. Anyone who wants to look up amazon will go to amazon.com and search there. And try to display at least a small bit of maturity with your posts, your approach resembles a troll. If amazon have started to offer VA III it is only a recent thing, but a search of the searchbar on their webpage www.amazon.com doesn't yield results. wwww.amazon.com does not offer VA III

www.amazon.com...=nb_ss_gw/105-4437481-1594844?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=eric+phelps

Here as a reply from Phelps to the point you raise

VAIII was never sold via Amazon my friend. Amazon never sold VAII either, they would only allow it through their auctions via third party sellers who sold it at high rates rarely.

You also appear to be taking alot more interest in amazon than the contents of his book, or the connections between the Vatican and Freemasonry, you have no meaningful contribution to that, I take it you have made no effort to research that.

[edit on 19-1-2008 by iezuit]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by iezuit

 

I have replied to your previous post on this thread and explained that the thread does not require the reader to have read Phelps, I am not directly interested in Phelps, more on the opinion of Freemasons on what Phelps says.

Phelps cannot get published

However, Phelps power over his audience, lies in the fact that he bases his theories on truth

So to summarise, you are saying you haven't read Phelps book, you are asking for opinions of his book from other individuals who have not read his book, not only that but they are freemasons bound by SECRET oaths, meaning they don't want you to know the truth anyhow

A very enlightened approach!!!

And no, I don't market Phelps book, but I have read it, and I think if most other so-called "conspiracy-therorists" read his book, they would understand the NWO structure alot better. But Phelps is only one such autor who has given the Vatican centre-stage in the NWO scheme of things, but his book is probably the largest and most recent.

No, I am not a most devoted devotee, but I read his book, alot of it made sense straight away for obvious reasons, alot of it I had to question, so I did, and I feel he was accurate on alot of things, not all by any means, but alot of it. I don't see any problem in defending him on a thread that is designed to attack him by people who have never read his book, you have set this thread up to attack him, if you have geniune questions about some of his "wilder" claims you should first question him about it, and take it from there, that would be the most sensible post, rather than asking people who have never read his book, and are bound by secret oaths and obviously have a certain interest in hiding the truth (hence the secrecy).

Phelps website has only limited information, which is why I contacted him for him to clarify many of the claims he made, just as you or anyone else could do. Considering the title of the thread, if you were serious about learning more, asking him for further information would be a much more logical starting point.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
I would be extremely suspicious of anyone who proposes such theories.

I think that may be you misunderstood my position. Eric Phelps is IMHO a hate mongerer - end of story. I know that those he states as freemasons are in fact not. However, Phelps power over his audience, lies in the fact that he bases his theories on truth and I am therefore wishing to discuss what masonry percieves the influence of the Jesuits has been.

Many thanks though for replying and I hope that the above helps to clarify my motives in broaching the subject.

And claiming that Bolshevik revolution was done by Jesuits is .

Originally posted by LightinDarkness
reply to post by KilgoreTrout

 

I see your point, but I would still maintain that he has nothing which is based in fact. He is literally claiming everyone is a Jesuit and a Freemason and then using that as a launching pad to accuse the two organizations of..well...everything. The only thing that has any basis in truth that I have seen in that quote is that Freemasons exist and Jesuits exist. The rest of it is just wrong.

He is indeed trying to rile up hatred, but I would argue it is not effective because it has any basis in facts. Indeed, the best type of hate mongering is most effective when it is completely made up, because it allows the people who make it up to literally draw theories that have entire organizations being "innately evil." It is much harder to do this with facts, as very few people and especially very few entire organizations are 100% evil and up to no good. Reality is not so black and white, so in order to inspire hatred people must start making up their own reality.

There is no institutional connection with masonry and the jesuits. This is because the Roman Catholic Church has since masonry's inception been extremely hostile and discouraging of any interaction between the church and the fraternity, and especially dislikes its members becoming masons. Why would it then cooperate with the fraternity?

Aplauz.