BETTY ONG / FLIGHT 11 Was A Mock Hijacking Exercise.

reply to post by scrapple


scrapple,

Only way for a pilot, even back then, to get jumpseat access is if one passed oneself off as with another airline (with fake ID perhaps?)...

Ever see the movie with Leo DiCaprio? "Catch Me if You Can"...based on true story.

However, with so many empty seats I would have been, if not suspicious, at least mystified if someone asked me for the jumpseat, then declined to sit in back (especially if First is available). I have jumpseated on several carriers, including AA, since 9/11. And, just to put your mind at ease, NO a fake ID will not work anymore. Won't say why, just know it won't.

Another thought regarding riding up front: They bought tickets. Requesting a jumpseat (commonly offered as a 'free' perk to fellow pilots) would have made no sense. The gate agent would have seen their name in the reservation, the 'final' list of First Class passengers would have their name on it too.

reply to post by IvanZana


IvanZana,

Hmmmm...maybe we should analyze this 'mock' hijacking scenario in more detail. I hope someone else can come forward with personal knowledge of such a thing having been carried out before, or since 9/11.

What I mean is, from my 22 years at the airline, if we were going to drill for a hijacking it would be in the simulator, or in the case of the F/As, in a classroom or cabin mockup. Mostly we were shown videos...scripted and acted as a demonstration of what the Feds had determined to be the best course of action in hijackings...the 'common strategy'. Every year, required 'recurrent training'. Videos of how to recognize and (yipes) even move a suspected 'bomb' to the 'least-risk' location and how to prepare the area...thankfully, that was for the FAs...bless 'em!!!

Never have I heard of a 'mock drill' on a live ATC frequency. Those guys get busy enough just pushing the tin, let alone having to pretend to drill.

[adding text...]

IvanZana, since you are the OP of this thread I wanted to respond with a little more of my opinions.

Listening to the link at top is chilling, to me...and perfectly real sounding.

The post on YouTube had some missing transcript info, some called 'unintelligible' where I could hear the words, since they were in airline context...lingo, if you will.

A few observations...Ms. Ong did not call the AA Ops Center, but the Raleigh Reservations Center. This is obvious since the man keeps asking what seat she is in, assuming her to be a passenger. Finally, she identifies as a flight attendant...she mentions she's on her J/S 'at 3R'. That refers to the door location, aircraft right, aft. (My airline referred to it as '4R', but that is not pertinent). She also says she is #3...(refers to her working position for that flight, prob aft galley). She is ovbiously very stressed, indicated by initially calling it Flight 12. I will guess that she flew this two-day trip often, and likely the next day's flight LAX-BOS was 12. Flustered, and confused at first, all very expected. Realize, also, that sitting on her J/S the interphone is right there as well...so she was using one of those old cordless 'AirPhones'...terrible reception whenever I used one...so she may have been listening to it, hoping someone up front would call. Or else, she knew they were already down and was just peeking out of the galley to see what was happening.

As to Mace, or Pepper Spray in Business Class...the cabin air circulates from the ceiling, down mostly to the sidewall ducting, and eventually aft to the outflow valve in the tail. It would, however, take several minutes to clear.

As to the CP door not being able to open, she never actually tried it herself...remember, she is telling people on the ground, and relaying what she had been told.

The people in the recording on the ground, starts with the Res agent in Raleigh, the man...then the woman (a Supervisor, no doubt) in Res, Natya Gonzalez. She gets hold of AA Operations, most likely Dallas Ft. Worth. HE is the one who can talk to Dispatch, to ATC, etc. He was professional, and organized...most likely had a checklist to follow...you can hear it in his questions.

The audio is exactly what I would expect to hear...confusion, brief misunderstanding, at first. Disbelief is a common reaction when confronted with a real-life scenario. A 'drill' would have had a lot less confusion, IMO.

Speaking of the 'disbelief' reaction, it's something that has been demonstrated in cockpit simulators over and over. If I may, there is a critical point in the take-off, a speed called 'V1'. Sometimes referred to as 'decision' speed. It is calculated for every take-off...theoretically it is the speed that, if above, you should continue the take-off in the event of an engine failure. Below it, and there is sufficient remaining runway to abort and stop. It also allows for an approx two-second delay to account for reaction time by the pilots...the human tendency to assess, analyze and then respond with the appropriate action. Ex: At 140 knots it's about 236 feet/sec...so that's computed in.

Anyway, this is an interesting discussion and I'd like to learn more. There are a lot of aspects to the events, and study should always continue...







[edit on 15-1-2008 by weedwhacker]

[edit on 15-1-2008 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by scrapple


That was a refreshing new version. Thank you.

reply to post by weedwhacker


You will excuse me if I call Boeing tomorrow about the "urniversal key" issue, won't you? I would like to get it settled once and for all.

reply to post by weedwhacker


That has always been an issue prior to 9/11/2001. I still remember old commercial jetliners, now long out of service, that had curtains for cockpit "doors". They started putting in doors when kids and adults alike would not stay out of the cockpit. "Want daddy to take you up to see if the man will let you fly the plane?"

reply to post by OrionStars


Orion, you can ask John Lear. You will get a response I'm sure you can trust. BTW, I doubt Boeing will give you a straight answer, but if they do I will be surprised.

Good luck...perhaps you have some pull we don't know about?

reply to post by weedwhacker


With all due respect, if the keys are one-key-fits-all why do you have three keys?

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by OrionStars

 

Why do 'inconsistencies' seem to crop up? Is all the info being disseminated, by both sides of the argument? Seems to get so heated, that civil discourse can be lost. I do have a question, not sure if I missed it here on another page: Did the Center tapes (Cleveland Center?) have a transmission by a heavily accented male voice saying that he was the Captain and they were returning to the airport? The implication being that a hijacker thought he was on PA when he was still on Comm 1. Happens often, even to very experienced pilots. Humorous, annoying...you usually owe the other guy a beer at the hotel. (All tongue in cheek, since we don't drink...ever...).

I have no idea. I was not at the center at the time. About that time someone should have been getting those inceptors off the ground and did not.

Was that supposed to be in Cleveland, NY or Pentagon?

reply to post by OrionStars


Why have three keys? Well, in 22 years there were occasions when I got to work and forgot my key. (Kept mine in the suitcase, sometimes you change bags and forget it). So, got a new one from MX...flew trip, kept it. They weren't considered a security threat, not then. I know, sounds unbelievable, but the thinking at the time was...any hijacker wouldn't be sophisticated enough to KNOW there was a key...

reply to post by OrionStars


OrionStars...I was referring to Cleveland Center, since that's the logical ARTCC to be handed off to after leaving NY Center airspace. You should look around for links to the tapes...especially if there are transcripts with time info, even better. Do you know if they're Public Domain? If they are not, then that is cause for cover-up claims...or else we will need an FOIA?

And, to add [editing here]...back then intercepts weren't called on a whim. It was/is an everyday occurence for a transponder to fail...or sometimes the controller loses the data block for a while, then it comes back. If it doesn't come back after his comfort level expires, then he calls the airplane and tells us. Usually the request is 'recycle'. Since the 767 has two, we just switch to the other one, assuming the first one failed, then write it up in the logbook at the destination.

BUT...the controller isn't looking at just one airplane...and he can be busy on the landline, handing off or accepting flights in and out of his sector of responsibility. Coming back, seing no data...he calls (this is a scenario for how it could happen) and gets no response. Well, that happens, we all miss a cal sometimes. Call again...wait...again...now he starts to think they (the crew) switched frequencies, so asks his buddy next to him, 'Got AA11?' See, it's the confusion factor...no hurry, it's the high altitude sectors, lots of separation (under normal circumstances). He knows the flight plan, he assumes the airplane is 'NORDO' (no radio) but expects it will continue as planned. Realization sinks in as word comes from AA Operations that a flight attendant reported a hijacking...well, that's one way it could go down, IMO. Many minutes can elapse during this.

[edit on 15-1-2008 by weedwhacker]

[edit on 15-1-2008 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker


Oberlin was the one to which I was referring for Cleveland as well. I have been in that one more than a few times. I was not there at the time.

reply to post by OrionStars


Orion, I think I remember...you have a friend who works at the ARTCC? Seems you told me once. I'm sure your friend worked up from Local (tower and ground control) to a TRACON then to Center? Not sure the progression in the FAA, but that has been my impression. You can tell me, honest!!

reply to post by weedwhacker


Close relative. I grew up in what started out as the CAA and ended up and ended up the FAA at retirement for my close relative.

reply to post by OrionStars


He worked at the Oberlin Center as an electronic engineer.

8:47:33 — AAL77: ten right American 77.

8:50:48 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 cleared direct um Falmouth.

8:50:51 — AAL77: uh direct Falmouth American 77 thank you.

8:56:32 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77
Here is a link to the entire transcript. Flt. 77 disappears from radio contact in five minutes. NOTHING is heard, not one radio bleep, not one shout as the ' highjackers ' stormed the cockpit ( the front stew had no idea) and like all the other 3 planes, not one second of radio alerts...as if the cockpits were all taken INSTANTLY. AND without anyone seeing them do so!


Indy

paulboutin.weblogger.com...$80

From link:


8:56:46 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 Indy.

8:56:53 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 American Indy radio check how do you read.

8:57:12 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American 77 American Indy radio check how do you read.

8:57:28 — Indianapolis Control, Henderson Sector Radar: American alt 77 American radio check how do you read.

END of section.

Next:

www.ratical.org...

Next lets see what the front stew, Amy Sweeny said and did: She said that the ground had all the info...names and addresses and such..20 minutes before the crash!! She also says that the highjackers showed her a bomb and it had wires!! Nice of the guy to show her, huh? I mean, they had already slashed one guy to death, maybe several, and taken the plane, right? Then they are kind enough to take the time to show a ' bomb ' ( no doubt smuggled past the extra security that most of the ' highjackers ' went thru before boarding!!).

It is SO obvious that Sweeny is just playing another part in the Games. She was supposedly in the LAST ROW of coach(!!) and yet Betty was there with her(?) yet Betty was relaying info from the same cabin?? It all stinks to high heaven, it makes no sense, and it is phony as a 3 dollar bill. Just read the article and see all the glaring discrepancies.

www.ratical.org...

Here is an interesting find!! I was not aware that the government claimed to have recordings of the pilot Ogonowski supposedly flying the plane with a highjacker at his side!!! He allegedly keyed the mike many times so the ground could hear....what?? This pilot is allowed to fly the plane most of the way, while others are ' killed ' or sent packing to the rear of the plane?? This is too weird: From the link:

"The captain of Americans Flight 11 stayed at the controls much of the diverted way from
Boston to New York, sending surreptitious radio transmissions to authorities on the ground.
Captain John Ogonowski was a strong and burly man with the instincts of a fighter pilot who
had survived Vietnam. He gave extraordinary access to the drama inside his cockpit by
triggering a "push-to-talk button" on the aircrafts yoke (or wheel). "The button was being
pushed intermittently most of the way to New York," an F.A.A. air-traffic controller told The
Christian Science Monitor the day after the catastrophe. "He wanted us to know something
was wrong. When he pushed the button and the terrorist spoke, we knew there was this voice
that was threatening the pilot, and it was clearly threatening."
According to a timeline later adjusted by the F.A.A., Flight 11’s transponder was turned off
at 8:20 a.m., only 21 minutes after takeoff. (Even before that, by probably a minute or so,
Amy Sweeney began her report to American’s operations center at Logan.) The plane turned
south toward New York, and more than one F.A.A. controller heard a transmission with an
ominous statement by a terrorist in the background, saying, "We have more planes. We have
other planes." During these transmissions, the pilot’s voice and the heavily accented voice of
a hijacker were clearly audible, according to two controllers. All of it was recorded by a
F.A.A. traffic-control center in Nashua, N.H. According to the reporter, Mark Clayton, the
federal law-enforcement officers arrived at the F.A.A. facility shortly after the World Trade
Center attack and took the tape."

The tape was never allowed to be heard and it was NOT presented to the 9-11 Commission. It has disappeared in to the FBI's black hole where all evidence of 9-11 goes.

reply to post by deltaboy


Have you ever sprayed mace in a contained area?

I have. I used to work security in college and I had to carry it with me. Of course I'd never actually used mace before so I tested a small amount of spray in the bathroom.

I have to leave the house.

I can't imagine spraying a LARGE amount in a contained area like the cabin of a plane or even in coach. I also recall someone using mace in a store (accidentally?) and people ended up having to leave.

Outside I am sure it's different and yes if the police spray a perpetrator (especially down wind) they will not be affected and if they are it will be minimal. Outside you do stand the chance of being affected to some extent though but not as much as the person sprayed.

- Lee

reply to post by weedwhacker

Did the Center tapes (Cleveland Center?) have a transmission by a heavily accented male voice saying that he was the Captain and they were returning to the airport? The implication being that a hijacker thought he was on PA when he was still on Comm 1.

Yes they did.

You can hear and view them, with transcripts, on this video: youtube.com.
The recording of the pilot transmission at the time of the takeover is not on this recording. As far as I know, it has not been heard in public with the exception of the Zacharias Moussaoui trial.

Here is the link to the cockpit voice recorder transcripts: PDF

Here is the link to the ATC recording transcripts with timeline: PDF

reply to post by Boone 870


Thanks Boone, yeah I found this too on YT. Of course, it's UA93, not AA11. And, it's been edited somewhat, the audio has at any rate. Point is, during the intrusion the pilots keyed the mic (or both mics) and ATC recorded their voices shouting. That seems to be edited out. Perhaps in deference to the deceased pilots.
Is in the transcript, though at 9:28:16 and 9:28:48

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by IvanZana

 

Im calling you out.

Ive met alot of people like you weed who claim authority but all that you have offered as "proof", any kid can obtain from Google.

The FAA requires live fly mock Hicjacking and disaster drill every three years.

GOOGLE "MOCK HIJACKING" "Mock HIjack" "Plane crash exerscise" "disaster drill"


If you didnt know these drills were happeneing you would believe them to be real.

LEAD: Indian security forces staged a mock hijacking of a commercial plane by supposed Sikh extremists today in an operation so realistic that for hours several officials said they believed a real hijacking was under way.

Indian security forces staged a mock hijacking of a commercial plane by supposed Sikh extremists today in an operation so realistic that for hours several officials said they believed a real hijacking was under way.

The mock hijackers were reported to have seized the plane after takeoff from New Delhi, flown it to Aurangabad, 400 miles away, and demanded a million dollars and the release of prisoners held in the city of Bhopal.

At one point, the authorities told a leading Indian news agency that the four gunmen had thrown the body of a slain passenger onto the tarmac.

As it turned out, officials said, there were no regular passengers aboard the plane, only Government personnel taking part in the mock exercise.

It was not clear which of the people reporting the hijacking were deliberately spreading a false version of the events and which believed that a hijacking was under way. Alarm and Confusion

query.nytimes.com...