BETTY ONG / FLIGHT 11 Was A Mock Hijacking Exercise.

Here are two scenarios I have read about-- Sorry I do not have the sources in front of me I *might* be able to dig them up.

1.) The reason that only Boeings were hijacked is because they utilize a Universal cockpit key. The notion that the hijackers at some point had previously obtained a copy of that universal Boeing cockpit key. Made copies for each team, and then access would be assured. This has been reported and speculated upon, I believe by the Boston Globe.

2.) Since there was one hijacker with a commercial pilots licence on each flight, it is not uncommon for the "aspiring pilot" to ask permission to "observe" the flight from the cockpit. They would still have a seat assignment in the cabin, but no one knows if any were actually IN the cockpit whan all hell breaks loose..remember this was PRE-9/11.

just my $ .02 -- there is no way for any of this to be proven.

Originally posted by Boone 870
reply to post by scrapple

 

They were in first class. The 9/11 Commission talks about the pre-9/11 flights.

Then it must be true.

And I might add all this happend in five minutes. I still dont buy it sorry.

8:14 Last routine radio communication; likely takeover
8:19 Flight attendant notifies AA of hijacking

www.9-11commission.gov...




[edit on 14-1-2008 by scrapple]

[edit on 14-1-2008 by scrapple]

reply to post by scrapple


This is from a post I made three months ago:
Notice how close the seat is to the center console and the forward panel.
Now notice how far away the seat is from the center console and the front panel.

See the difference? It is apparent from the photos that the seats can be moved back as well as split to the outside of the aircraft for easier access.


The seats can be slid back and to the outside of the flight deck. The pictures are of a 757 cockpit, the smaller of the two airliners hijacked.

reply to post by Boone 870



Me - I take seriously little to nothing the 9/11 commission reported, considering how much valuable testimony they refused to allow at the hearing. That testimony would have refuted all the "official" report spokespersons. Which is why it was not allowed.

reply to post by Boone 870



They can move seats out to get in and move forward. Rather than stepping all over the control panel. That makes reasonable sense. They still are not going to maneuver with 7 or 8 people in there to get that accomplished. Particularly, if mace is lingering in the air on the outside of the cockpit.

reply to post by Taxi-Driver

1.) The reason that only Boeings were hijacked is because they utilize a Universal cockpit key.

You are correct about the Universal Boeing Key.

2. Airline doors were flimsy and could be opened with the same key and before 9/11
pilots warned this was dangerous. They should listen to them. This was not reasonable, when
in the months preceding September 11, 2001, there were 16 cases of people breaking into the
cockpit, most in the U.S., and U.S. aviation had suffered several terrorist attacks on jets by breaking
into the cockpit and killing or injuring the pilots. Link

From Mary Schiavo's 9/11 Commission testimony. No, she's not a shill for the government.

reply to post by Boone 870


From whom did this get any "universal key"? I have asked this question before to no avail as yet. Please keep in mind, no one seemed to know what was happening in the alleged cockpit or anywhere else on the alleged plane. At least, that is what alleged Betty Ong stated several times when she had to break away, and only muffled, unruffled sounds could be heard in the background.

reply to post by OrionStars


"From whom did this....." should be "from whom did they....."

reply to post by Boone 870


From where and whom did that external source come. It looks very familiar.

reply to post by OrionStars


The link said govinfo. It's a transcript from the commission testimony. I believe PBS has transcripts also.

Mary Schiavo worked for both the Bush Sr. and Clinton administrations. She wrote a book detailing the dangers of airline security and now she owns a law firm that sues negligent airlines. She also represents several 9/11 families that are suing the airlines.

reply to post by Boone 870


Thank you. No wonder it looked so familiar and so "official" report fantasy.

I see many various people writing the same words, while implying they are their own words, which you did not.

Originally posted by scrapple

Originally posted by weedwhacker
The B767 door opens forward, into the cockpit. There is an 8 inch, or so, step down. The B757 door opens aft, there is an 8 inch, or so, step up. Really, you can look this stuff up at Boeing, it's not top secret.

WW,

This is not intended to question your integ. just looking for clarification. This site mentions that you step UP with a door opening into the 767 CP. This is reverse of your statement. I do not doubt that the 767 door opens into the CP, but simply a heads up on the discrep.

One difference is that one steps up to enter the 767's flightdeck and steps down to enter the 757's flightdeck...

I keep tripping on those damn steps! It's really embarrassing when I visit the cockpit and try to act all professional and then take a header into the cockpit. I also manage to hit my head on the overhead panel, which also adds to my embarassment.

-Neil, Boeing designed the cockpit door so you wouldn't embarrass yourself. Pull the door open = gives you time to see the step down. Push the door and your foot hits the step up before you trip.


- Neil Harrison

www.airliners.net...

[edit on 14-1-2008 by scrapple]

[edit on 14-1-2008 by scrapple]

You're right, I wrote it backwards...was sitting having dinner thinking about it when I went to look it up. The DC-10, another wide body, is a step down. FYI, reason for the step? The 757 and 767 were marketed and have a common type rating...since the fuselages are of different sizes, the layout of the windows and floor had to be the same to provide the same 'sight picture' in order to be considered 'one' common type...just with minor mechanical differences that are covered in something called..well, 'differences' training. Just as a B737 type rating will cover them all, the different models require (under airline operations) this differences training.

Sorry for the screw up.

[edit to say sorry for the long quoting...]

[edit on 14-1-2008 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by OrionStars


OrionStars, re: the door 'key'...

I was given one in 1984...everyone was. It fit the Boeing, the McDonnell Douglas and the Airbus locks. It was stamped 'Do Not Duplicate' but if you lost one you could, back then, just go down to Maintenance as ask for another one. Even our F/As were required to carry it as part of their 'uniform', just as a flashlight and Operations Manual were required.

As to 'Do Not Duplicate'...easy enough to scrup down the letters on the head of the key and take it in somewhere. It was a very average key, about one inch long or so on the shank.

BTW, Boone's post from Airliners dot Net was great. Only minor diff in cockpit layout between the 757 (pictured) and the 767. As noted, the seats are on J-shaped tracks so they move outward to give more room between teh seat and the center console.

Also, FYI, the seats in the 767 are electric, fore/aft and up/down.

reply to post by weedwhacker


That is a heck of a lot of one-size-fits-all keys floating around all over the world. Why bother locking doors when one key fits all?

What is the name of the manufacturer of pre-2001 cockpit door locks and keys for Boeing or any other plane manufacturer? Was it Universal or something else? Airlines do not have to accept universal keys and locks during manufacturing or keep them, should that happen. That is up to them and the pilots' unions to work that out for safety reasons, including pre-2001 already manufactured planes.

That factor makes an excellent bargaining chip in contract negotiations. Something management always loathes and dreads - safety issues. The one issue no management can ignore on contract negotiations with any union. One size-fits-all-keys would definitely be a safety hazard for pilots, other crew members, and passengers alike. I cite one D. B. Cooper - hijacker pre-2001.

So from whom or where did any alleged hijackers get any one-size-fits-all cockpit door key to unlock any alleged cockpit doors? In the video, there is no indication anyone gave anyone else any key. They would not need it from any pilot, if alleged hijackers were already in cockpit with a locked door behind them. How did they get any key? Certified documentation needed for same.

A question to chew on,

(I admit that I am vainly playing the proof game here on a flase flag situation which I believe to be entirely fabricated.)

"...Now, according to the 9/11 commission report, Sweeney (the other attendant) ID'ed the seat numbers of thehijackers at 8:38 or so:

"At 8:38, Ong told Gonzalez that the plane was flying erratically again. Around this time Sweeney told Woodward that the hijackers were Middle East- er ners, naming three of their seat numbers."

Again, the LA Times article:
"But even as she was relating details about the hijackers, the men were storming the front of the plane and "had just gained access to the cockpit.""

Clearly the hijackers gained access to the cockpit AFTER 8:38am, according to Sweeney.

So why did the plane change course and its transponder go off much earlier?

In fact, the 9/11 commission report says the hijacking started around 8:14am. How the hijacking occurred without the hijackers in the cockpit is not clear, and they do not give any clues.

team8plus.org...

That's a 20 minute gap from course change to 'just gained access.'

THEY - should have written a tighter script IMO.

reply to post by weedwhacker


So no one would have a bit of problem forcing a pilot and co-pilot out of their cockpit seats on a 767 or 757? Particularly, if there are 7 or 8 people in those cockpits at the same time. Is that correct?

There is a photography trick to make spaces look much bigger than they are. I chose a photo which played no such photographic trickery.

reply to post by OrionStars


OR,

Better yet the offical story will have to put one 'terrorist' in the cockpit around the time of last tower contact and course change. 8:14 (Maybe Atta asked to ride jump seat ) Or he used his magic key, sneaking past the two first class attendants.

Bottom line the offical story STINKS STINKS STINKS always has - always will.




[edit on 14-1-2008 by scrapple]

reply to post by OrionStars


Yup! There were a lot of keys...I still have three. Useless and obsolete now, naturally; since doors are redesigned. The entire bulkhead as well, so you can rest easy...at least, on US carriers.

Not all foreign carriers are abiding by the new rules the same way. I personally was in Business Class on a European carrier two years ago, intra-Europe flight...door stayed open for many minutes at a time.

While I will refrain from using the term 'alleged' as often as you, I will respect your opinion on this volatile subject. I merely wished to add some clarification, where I could, from a pilot's perspective. Many hours have been spent, sitting there and trying to picture what it would have been like to be ambushed from behind...

Why do 'inconsistencies' seem to crop up? Is all the info being disseminated, by both sides of the argument? Seems to get so heated, that civil discourse can be lost. I do have a question, not sure if I missed it here on another page: Did the Center tapes (Cleveland Center?) have a transmission by a heavily accented male voice saying that he was the Captain and they were returning to the airport? The implication being that a hijacker thought he was on PA when he was still on Comm 1. Happens often, even to very experienced pilots. Humorous, annoying...you usually owe the other guy a beer at the hotel. (All tongue in cheek, since we don't drink...ever...).

And I have a bridge in London for sale...

Can it be proved that the recordings from flight 11 and 91 weren't part of the Mock hijacking drills?

[edit on 14-1-2008 by IvanZana]