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Who has the best Special Forces ?
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Most people seem too think that the americans got the best SF's. Now don't get me wrong, some of them guys are top notch. British SAS among the
Elite too.
But theirs some special forces that not many people know about. And its from a country you would not expect.
Canada has probely one of the best special forces teams in the world believe it or not. Their joint task force 2 is top notch, but rumors are that theirs at least 1 team that works for CSIS (the canadian intel agency).
Its members are supposed too be not quite normal, if ya get my drift, Elite chosen members get put into the team, and supposivly geneticaly altered.
Now it seems a bit far fetched, but then i heard that Canada in joint with the US have the top Genetic labs in the world, 1 is supposed too exist 100 some miles north of winnipeg manitoba. And also some other facility thats in the rocky mountians somewhere in alberta.
It would be hard too confrim that, but it does prove an interesting subject. Innocent old Canada being the top in genetic reaserch, makeing so called super soldiers.
Thats only rumor but i've heard it from a few places, if anybody could find it on the net please post the link
But theirs some special forces that not many people know about. And its from a country you would not expect.
Canada has probely one of the best special forces teams in the world believe it or not. Their joint task force 2 is top notch, but rumors are that theirs at least 1 team that works for CSIS (the canadian intel agency).
Its members are supposed too be not quite normal, if ya get my drift, Elite chosen members get put into the team, and supposivly geneticaly altered.
Now it seems a bit far fetched, but then i heard that Canada in joint with the US have the top Genetic labs in the world, 1 is supposed too exist 100 some miles north of winnipeg manitoba. And also some other facility thats in the rocky mountians somewhere in alberta.
It would be hard too confrim that, but it does prove an interesting subject. Innocent old Canada being the top in genetic reaserch, makeing so called super soldiers.
Thats only rumor but i've heard it from a few places, if anybody could find it on the net please post the link
Originally posted by Disposible Hero
Canada has probely one of the best special forces teams in the world believe it or not. Their joint task force 2 is top notch, but rumors are that theirs at least 1 team that works for CSIS (the canadian intel agency).
Its members are supposed too be not quite normal, if ya get my drift, Elite chosen members get put into the team, and supposivly geneticaly altered.
Isn't that what happened to wolverine, do they infuse JTF2 soldiers with atomantium ?
Originally posted by Corinthas
Cute!
The title here really shows the inner musings of armchair worriors.
My dad could kick your dad ass kind of stuff. Come on people where are we going with this?
The one line replies here like its the so and so really show the limited scope for debate. Its A.. no it's B... no reasoning for it, no data nothing just pure conjecture and speculation.
Obviously a subject you don't know anything about. If you'd bother to read the thread( which obviously you haven't ) you would see many links to information. Please don't post if you have nothing to ad and wish to denegrate the other posters. Goodbye.
Originally posted by mad scientist
I doubt it was a shot aimed at the individual, more likely a missed shot at the engine block of the vehicle.
From here
The two-man Canadian team, outfitted with British desert fatigues and an array of equipment from all over the world, killed an al-Qaeda fighter from 2,430 metres on the second shot.
The first blew a bag from the hand of their target, who was walking on a road.
"He didn't even flinch," said Bill, who spoke on condition that his real name not be used. "We made a correction and the next round hit exactly where we wanted it to. Well, a bit to the right."
So it seems the guy wasn't driving at the time. Sounds kinda comical, bag blowing out of his hand.
Originally posted by cargo
So it seems the guy wasn't driving at the time. Sounds kinda comical, bag blowing out of his hand.
Ja, the poor bastard wouldn't have even heard the shot. Maybe he thought the bag eing ripped from his hand was a divine sign from Allah
I think this question is one that doesn't have a definite answer.
So many of the SF groups out there, should be considered SPF's (Special Purpose Forces). The reason I say this is because many of the groups specialize in one or two types of operations. Can they do others that vary from their more primary roles? Of course they can but, there are other forces that are so much better at it.
I'd would give a more robust answer to this conversation, but I haven't the time right now and for one, I know from experience that the fog of war can change anything at any moment and to say one can do one thing better than another, is just a plain guess.
So many of the SF groups out there, should be considered SPF's (Special Purpose Forces). The reason I say this is because many of the groups specialize in one or two types of operations. Can they do others that vary from their more primary roles? Of course they can but, there are other forces that are so much better at it.
I'd would give a more robust answer to this conversation, but I haven't the time right now and for one, I know from experience that the fog of war can change anything at any moment and to say one can do one thing better than another, is just a plain guess.
If we ignore specialised training and go down the pure hard pyscho route, the French Foreign Legion deserve a mention:
The training there is brutal you learn to survive everything short of a nuclear holocaust, on forced marches in the jungle they are used to having a couple of members incapacitated to severe injuries every trip. Do they stop and airlift them, no they have the remaining men stretcher them for the rest of the route! (Plus they have to build the stretcher from natural materials in the jungle! )
I remember seeing a documentry on their training down in French Guana, They have an assault course in the jungle for which the record for a squad of Legionaires is about 2hrs, the green berets had a go and it took them well over 24hrs to complete!!
Although as the narrator pointed out the whole point of the course was to work as a team to complete it (As it was virtually impossible to do otherwise) the Green Beret's gung-ho tactics of trying to out-do each other may have hindered them!
In reality this debate could go on ad infinitum as everyone has their personal favourite - I'm British so i'd plump for the SAS and SBS it's a known fact they train most of the world's SF.
But hey horses for courses, the only true way to settle this would be to put a squad of each in the most diverse enviroment on earth and see who eventually walks outs...which would all be a rather pointless waste of life to settle a forum posting!
On a more humanitarian viewpoint:
Every soldier has a part to play in a war, however heroic, the infantry in WWI that survived the horrendous conditions in the trenches for months on end are special forces if you think about it realistically they are just not the high profile glamour boys, remember the hardest part about being a solider is having to kill a complete stranger when all he has done is be on the other side of a religious/political/insert reason decided by a few people in command to stop the opponent doing it to your own people and living with the knowledge of what you have done. It doesn't matter how many ways you know to kill them. And in that way i suppose any special forces are a good thing if employed right, to achieve a result whilst minimising the impact to other people of both sides.
Would a better thread be 'The Special operatives with the worst/most horrific record of action'? (At least the patriotism towards your own country's forces would subside.)
[edit on 7-10-2004 by tobermory]
[edit on 7-10-2004 by tobermory]
The training there is brutal you learn to survive everything short of a nuclear holocaust, on forced marches in the jungle they are used to having a couple of members incapacitated to severe injuries every trip. Do they stop and airlift them, no they have the remaining men stretcher them for the rest of the route! (Plus they have to build the stretcher from natural materials in the jungle! )
I remember seeing a documentry on their training down in French Guana, They have an assault course in the jungle for which the record for a squad of Legionaires is about 2hrs, the green berets had a go and it took them well over 24hrs to complete!!
Although as the narrator pointed out the whole point of the course was to work as a team to complete it (As it was virtually impossible to do otherwise) the Green Beret's gung-ho tactics of trying to out-do each other may have hindered them!
In reality this debate could go on ad infinitum as everyone has their personal favourite - I'm British so i'd plump for the SAS and SBS it's a known fact they train most of the world's SF.
But hey horses for courses, the only true way to settle this would be to put a squad of each in the most diverse enviroment on earth and see who eventually walks outs...which would all be a rather pointless waste of life to settle a forum posting!
On a more humanitarian viewpoint:
Every soldier has a part to play in a war, however heroic, the infantry in WWI that survived the horrendous conditions in the trenches for months on end are special forces if you think about it realistically they are just not the high profile glamour boys, remember the hardest part about being a solider is having to kill a complete stranger when all he has done is be on the other side of a religious/political/insert reason decided by a few people in command to stop the opponent doing it to your own people and living with the knowledge of what you have done. It doesn't matter how many ways you know to kill them. And in that way i suppose any special forces are a good thing if employed right, to achieve a result whilst minimising the impact to other people of both sides.
Would a better thread be 'The Special operatives with the worst/most horrific record of action'? (At least the patriotism towards your own country's forces would subside.)
[edit on 7-10-2004 by tobermory]
[edit on 7-10-2004 by tobermory]
Originally posted by mad scientist
The Spetsnaz seem to be thought of very highly by many people, however to date they haven't carried out one successful hostage rescue. Also in Afghanistan they lost a whole battalion in a day to the Mujahideen, I'll try and find a link.
Actually thats not true. They have had many un advertised successful hostage rescues. Spetsnaz play the same as SAS in Britain meaning they are police units as well.
One time a deranged man took a hostage at a hospital. A spetsnaz dressed up like a woman and went up the service stairs where the lunatic was. When the guy saw the man in a dress the spetsnaz acted like an idiot saying don't shoot me and screaming like a girl. Then he snap shot the guy in the head with a revolver I might add.
On the mujaheddin part. The afghans were only afraid of spetsnaz and said so openly. Spetsnaz would climb up the mountains at night mutilate a guerilla and when everyone would wake up they wuld find the guy dead among them with a 'signature' style killing. The good ol demoralizing mutilation tactic. If you check out any russian campaign I'm sure you'll come across plenty of mutilation killings by spetsnaz.
[edit on 7-10-2004 by vincere7]
Originally posted by tobermory
In reality this debate could go on ad infinitum as everyone has their personal favourite - I'm British so i'd plump for the SAS and SBS it's a known fact they train most of the world's SF.
They don't train any wetern SF, they train with them. These known facts are more media hype than gospel.
Originally posted by vincere7
Actually thats not true. They have had many un advertised successful hostage rescues. Spetsnaz play the same as SAS in Britain meaning they are police units as well.
One time a deranged man took a hostage at a hospital. A spetsnaz dressed up like a woman and went up the service stairs where the lunatic was. When the guy saw the man in a dress the spetsnaz acted like an idiot saying don't shoot me and screaming like a girl. Then he snap shot the guy in the head with a revolver I might add.
To clarify, I meant hostage rescue involving terrorists, not some glorified SWAT role.
On the mujaheddin part. The afghans were only afraid of spetsnaz and said so openly. Spetsnaz would climb up the mountains at night mutilate a guerilla and when everyone would wake up they wuld find the guy dead among them with a 'signature' style killing. The good ol demoralizing mutilation tactic. If you check out any russian campaign I'm sure you'll come across plenty of mutilation killings by spetsnaz.
I think you've got that back the front the Spetsnaz would be mutilated if they were captured. There were areas in Afghanistan where the Spetsnaz feared to tread.
[edit on 7-10-2004 by mad scientist]
"the french C.R.A.P ( do not laugh, it doesn't mean crap )" -- sorry just collapsed in hysterics at that one!
I think that when you are trying to judge these things you have to take all training away and look at the basic nature of the combatants, to get an idea of who would be better.
The Gurkhas came out of their conflicts with a super human reputation. They could do more with a single knife than a batallion of arnold's with every gadget and modern weapon available. They have a formidable reputation.
For second place you look at either the English or Australians. Well the English are basically nastier, meaner, and harder more vicious people - so that would have to give them an edge, eveything else being equal. No one relishes a fight more than the indigenous englishman.
The americans would have to come second because there is so much of the spartan in the american soul. They aren't mean and nasty like the English, but underneath they are very spare and hard.
Basically the Australians are too decent and have too much soul to be the very best fighters.imho
I think that when you are trying to judge these things you have to take all training away and look at the basic nature of the combatants, to get an idea of who would be better.
The Gurkhas came out of their conflicts with a super human reputation. They could do more with a single knife than a batallion of arnold's with every gadget and modern weapon available. They have a formidable reputation.
For second place you look at either the English or Australians. Well the English are basically nastier, meaner, and harder more vicious people - so that would have to give them an edge, eveything else being equal. No one relishes a fight more than the indigenous englishman.
The americans would have to come second because there is so much of the spartan in the american soul. They aren't mean and nasty like the English, but underneath they are very spare and hard.
Basically the Australians are too decent and have too much soul to be the very best fighters.imho
Originally posted by quiver
Basically the Australians are too decent and have too much soul to be the very best fighters.imho
You have obviously never stumbled out of a pub at Friday night closing time in downtown Sydney. I appreciate the kind words though.
There was one Australian SAS operative allowed to talk (without identity concealment) to 60 Minutes Australia about their operations in Afghanistan. I watched that interview and can tell you that the guy spoke with what seemed like no emotion (even while recounting a time when he thought he was going to die), never hesitated in his speech, never made an error, stumbled or overplayed the events.
One quote from him regarding Al Qaeda I won't forget --
SIGNALMAN MARTIN WALLACE: "These guys were definitely committed and they were there to fight to the death - and we accommodated them."
And this is what Lt. Gen. Frank Hagenbeck (US Military), Coalition Commander in Afghanistan, had to say about the Australian SAS during "Operation Anaconda" --
LT GEN FRANK HAGENBECK: You had to have someone there on the ground that could see and hear and smell and pick up the sense of the battlefield of what was going on and we were very much dependent upon the Aussies, certainly in that part of the battlefield.
LT GEN FRANK HAGENBECK: I tell you, I would not have wanted to do that operation without the Australian SAS's folks on that ridge line. I mean, they made it happen that day.
And finally:
LT GEN FRANK HAGENBECK, COALITION COMMANDER, AFGHANISTAN: The Australian SAS displayed those kinds of things that make them the elite, in my view, of small unit infantry men throughout the world. And that's autonomy, independence, tenacity that they will never ever be defeated.
The Elite, in his view, of small unit infantry men throughout the world.
You can read a transcript of the whole story here
Originally posted by quiver
For second place you look at either the English or Australians. Well the English are basically nastier, meaner, and harder more vicious people - so that would have to give them an edge, eveything else being equal. No one relishes a fight more than the indigenous englishman.
Basically the Australians are too decent and have too much soul to be the very best fighters.imho
Didn' t the Brits send their nastiest and meanest to Australia back in the convict days
Sorry for posting more (you can thank me for the points anytime Scientist ) but this is my favourite bit.
I think that speaks for itself.
SIGNALMAN MARTIN WALLACE: It's not very good odds. It's about the same odds as the Australians faced in Long Tan. Basically, they got on to the western ridge, which meant that they were behind us, so the guys who were shooting at the Al Qaeda on the eastern ridge were now taking rounds in the back.
LT COL ROWAN TINK: I was left under no misapprehension at all that there was a possibility that these guys were not going to get out.
ROSS COULTHART: The SAS Commander, Colonel Rowan Tink, was listening to radio reports from the Australians as Al Qaeda fighters closed in.
LT COL ROWAN TINK: There is no doubt that they thought they could win. They had proven that against the Russians on at least two occasions and given the Russians a bloody nose when they tried to take the valley.
SIGNALMAN MARTIN WALLACE: I was just thinking about how I'm going to get out of here. I'm not going to bloody die in this valley.
ROSS COULTHART: Did you have your doubts?
SIGNALMAN MARTIN WALLACE: Yeah, certainly. I thought we were done for on many occasions during the day, yeah.
ROSS COULTHART: A mortar bomb landed two metres from the Australians. Wouldn't a mortar going off two metres away normally kill you?
SIGNALMAN MARTIN WALLACE: Well, at this stage we managed to dig a little bit of a shell scrape, so we were slightly below the ground.
ROSS COULTHART: So you were just digging into the ground as close as you could get?
SIGNALMAN MARTIN WALLACE: Yeah, basically, with a knife or our hands, or whatever we could get.
ROSS COULTHART: The attackers then targeted the only mortar weapon the Americans had.
SIGNALMAN MARTIN WALLACE: I was just lying there, watching them out of the corner of my eye and about five or six of them disappeared in a puff of grey smoke. It was basically a direct hit on the American mortar from the Al Qaeda mortar.
ROSS COULTHART: How badly injured were those men?
SIGNALMAN MARTIN WALLACE: Um, we had guys with chest injuries, there was open fractures, basically fragmentation wounds, some over their entire bodies.
ROSS COULTHART: Signalman Wallace won a bravery award for what he did next.
LT COL ROWAN TINK: He saw there was a need there to go out and pull some of those guys to safety and dress their wounds and he put himself in harm's way, under fire moved out, collected some of these wounded and dragged them back in to safety into the ditch they were in.
I think that speaks for itself.
Hey cargo know this one:
REST YE, OH WARRIOR,
YOU'LL BATTLE NO MORE,
NO LONGER TO LIVE
THE HORRORS OF WAR.
YOUR DUTY WAS DONE,
WITH HONOUR AND PRIDE'
FAREWELL! OH BROTHER,
UNTIL WE MARCH BY YOUR SIDE.
REST YE, OH WARRIOR,
YOU'LL BATTLE NO MORE,
NO LONGER TO LIVE
THE HORRORS OF WAR.
YOUR DUTY WAS DONE,
WITH HONOUR AND PRIDE'
FAREWELL! OH BROTHER,
UNTIL WE MARCH BY YOUR SIDE.
The British SAS or elusive SBS are the best. They are much better than Delta Force (as proven each year in a contest called Deltex - i think that is
the name). The barrier test for the Australian SAS is a peice of piss. I could do it everyday when I was in the military. As for Commandos (aus) - no
good, you can get in directly from a civvie.
Does anyone know if the French Forign Legion count? I don't know if they are any good, but I hear they have a mean barrier test.
Does anyone know if the French Forign Legion count? I don't know if they are any good, but I hear they have a mean barrier test.
cargo please feel free to post as much information as you feel is necessary. That transcript you posted, was it from 60 minutes a while ago
?
Some heavy sh!t also happened in E Timor where bravery medals were awarded ut the citations kept secret.
Some heavy sh!t also happened in E Timor where bravery medals were awarded ut the citations kept secret.
Originally posted by Ezekial
The barrier test for the Australian SAS is a peice of piss. I could do it everyday when I was in the military. As for Commandos (aus) - no good, you can get in directly from a civvie.
What are you talking about, did you try and qualify for the SAS did you ? What Army unit did you serve in ? I have heard that the ASAS qualification is harder than the Brecan Beacons.
Originally posted by vincere7
Hey cargo know this one:
REST YE, OH WARRIOR,
YOU'LL BATTLE NO MORE,
NO LONGER TO LIVE
THE HORRORS OF WAR.
YOUR DUTY WAS DONE,
WITH HONOUR AND PRIDE'
FAREWELL! OH BROTHER,
UNTIL WE MARCH BY YOUR SIDE.
RAR Regimental Ode.
Nice one Vince.
I'm surprised you know that. Have you served with Aussies before?
Oh and Ezekial, I'm not in the military. But even I know that's BS.
Edit: Yeah Scientist it was probably 6 months ago? I dunno exactly. The transcript doesnt give a date. There is plenty that has happened SAS wise since Afghanistan. I remember hearing about an Aust SAS operative who took on a heap of Iraqi infantry alone and got awards. I'll try and find an article.
[edit on 8-10-2004 by cargo]
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