The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

also, and a little off topic..
Americans killed like 16 million Indians when we colonized the nation and expanded from coast to coast.
so its not surprising that more than 6 million jews were killed.

human history is sad, and repeats itself.

This is disgusting. The original poster of this thread is typical of those who have an agenda which cannot be followed unless the holocaust is denied. Time works in their favour and denial can be applied to everything.

To equate tattooed(!) witnesses testimony to alien abductees is appalling. It beggars belief that anyone would lower themselves to argue the point. With all the proof that exists that this occurred and to then deny that it did means one thing and one thing only: anybody can deny anything, proof is meaningless if you are obsessed enough.

reply to post by Leyla


History books are very seldom without mistakes. Things, of no interest to the authors, are left out, or for the sake of space are left out. Not through any evil agenda, or malice, things might not make the final edit. Though I'm sure malice plays a part to occaisionally.

That's why its up to us as readers and seekers of knowledge, to have and read multiple sources, and use our reason to read between the lines. What is unsaid can sometimes be as important as what's said.

Originally posted by Telos
Honestly I'm sick and tired with this holocaust story and with this victimizing attitude of jewish people. C'mon guys, enough is enough. Almost 65 years are gone by and this thing is history.

There are far more threads on ATS promoting theories that the Holocaust did not happen. They generate far more posts than any thread discussing the actual conspiracies that occured in the World War 2 era. If you want points then attacking the validity of recorded history in regards to the persecution of the Jews is the way to go. Should those of us with a genuine interest in historical revisionism ignore such ill conceived arguments or actually share our knowledge to aid to raising of general awareness?

I see nowhere on this thread or elsewhere on ATS the promotion of a 'victimizing attitude of the jewish people'. I am hard pressed to find it in the mass media - if you only ever pick up books about the Jewish experience then that is all you will know about - there is a vast body of information out there from every angle. The 'jewish people' can only be blamed so far and are not responsible for the limitation of your sources.

Originally posted by Telos
As it is for 20 million russians who died in the concentration camps of Stalin, or armenian people during Armenian Genocide, or for Kurdish people during Kurdish Genocide by turks ect. Why all this attention about Holocaust? And why nobody talks about what I've mentioned (Armenian, Kurdish, Russians)?

Start a thread on those genocides then. Do a search and you will find some have already been mentioned. Check the post count.

Originally posted by Telos
Don't forget that Germany is still paying for that Holocaust. Don't forget that the word holocaust has taken very deep roots in our consciousness and social life. Did anybody ever asked WHY? Why jewish people and why not the other nationalities that even nowdays are going through a horrible genocide? Isn't enough that in the name of that Holocaust we today have e state and country called Izrael, in a land that belonged to Palestina? But is anyone talking about palestinian and all the injustices done to them?

Germany is still profiting from the Holocaust, many corporations throughout the world are still fat on profits they made using the yoke of Nazism.

If you think that you have a thread to discuss on any of the above I would gladly contribute - but we are talking about those things in other threads. It has no relevance here and that is not why it is being discussed here.

Originally posted by Telos
Honestly I 'hate' when people jumps in your throat the very first moment one stars expressing his doubt about Holocaust. It's like a mighty power doesn't wan't anybody to mention the opposite of what they proclaimed all this long years. People are being charged and brought to trial for saying that the numbers are to exaggerated or that maybe the whole holocaust story per say might have been an attempt to help jewish people to finally have a country.

I do not agree with prosecuting people for holocaust denial, I agree in prosecuting them for slander and inciting violence though if that is applicable. Otherwise they are simply given more credence than they deserve, their work is testament to itself and easily destroyed by even the slightest investigation.

Originally posted by Telos
At this point I don't know which one is the truth and how deep the rabbit whole goes for that matter. All what I can think off in this moment is the trial of Ernst Zundel and the irony of the system I've felt in my veins. One can ignore and is allowed not to give a **it about all other nations in the world ( in terms of genocide) but watch your mouth when is about jewish. So what? What makes them so special and why are we being educated with this double standard?

We are not, well I certainly wasn't. During the '80s there was a 'fashion' for holocaust depictions and the emphasis overwhelmingly was on the Jewish experience - but luckily for me I don't rely on the mass media for my education.

Originally posted by Telos
65 years are almost gone and we're still dealing with the holocaust. How many more years will come to pass till this story is over and 'forgoten' ? Are we just being taught a lesson about a page of recent human history or is a plot to implement a jewish agenda?

It should never be over and forgotten. It should be fully examined to prevent us from falling victim to the same thing again. It is you that is being fooled, while you believe that this is all about the Jews you fail to see that it was about anyone who could not defend themselves against the might of totalitarianism. It was the Jews that provided the money of course, not as bankers, but as business and home owners, holders of bank accounts and stock portfolios - all this was taken away from them to fund the expansion of the SS Miltary Industiral complex. When we forget they can do it again, not long to go by my estimation.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

Labor camps, concentration camps, internment camps - these are all normal things during war, and peacetime.

But the first Concentration Camp in Germany opened in 1933 - do we have all the dates wrong for World War 2 as well?

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by scientist
Arnold Offner:

US went beyond the legal requirements of neutrality legislation ... Had aid been forthcoming from the US, England and France (Allies) - the Spanish Republicans could well have triumphed. Instead, Germany gained every advantage from the Spanish civil war.

Franco was open to offers by the Second World War Britain had firmly bought Spain's neutrality and made regular payments to Franco's funds for this purpose throughout the war. Strategically spain's neutrality was considered essential for maintaining Gibraltar, diplomatically Spain was essential for covert peace negotiations and financially it served as a cover for holdings in Nazi Germany. As did Switzerland and Sweden, however neither of those could be bought by one side or the other.

Originally posted by scientist
The point being, we did not intervene in the war because of some moral stance. My own opinion is that we didn't intervene on purpose, until it was extremely advantageous to do so.

The US government and business establishment were firmly divided over the issue of war. Roosevelt would have entered much sooner, he was a confirmed Germanaphobe as were many of his closet allies. A considerable proportion of Roosevelts government leant towards socialism and were prepared to offer favour to the Communists (some were Soviet Agents). The industrialist who had invested considerable money and resources into Germany since 1925 were reticient to engage in war against Germany and favoured cutting trade relations with Britain and backing Germany.

Through Roosevelts trust of Churchill the Anglo-US alliance won out over the German-US affiliates, it took Pearl Harbour of course. Though the Industrialists had not wanted war they were quick to realise that they could now turn profit in the home market. The work to protect their overseas investments was commenced with immediate effect, holding companies had been set up in Sweden, Switzerland and Spain for the purpose of cloaking those investments. The banks concerned had already done the same for those in the UK who held similar investments so the infrastructure was already in place. In many cases US and UK investors received dividend payments from Germany throughout the war.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
I am terrified for humanity,
This is what frightens me about the internet propaganda.

You and me both.

Excellent post - great links, starred

I am pretty much ready to say goodbye to ATS.

The Moderators have really started to piss me off.
It's not even the baiters anymore...

The OP basically posts a bull# opinion piece laden with off kilter conjecture firing up almost everyone, baiting the baitable, daring them to speak up, speak louder than they should and the moment the OP gets his wish a moderator swoops in on his dirty white horse to say "We don't do that here"

Oh REALLY?

Seems to me that ATS now lets posters insult generations, desecrate the dead, step all over memories and doesn't even say "boo".
I guess "We don't do that here" is fairly selective.

I bet the OP is laughing at every post.


Says a lot about you ATS.

reply to post by gormly


Again, not agreeing with the OP, but just because something is controversial doesn't mean it's not true. There were millions offended when it was suggested that Earth was not the center of the universe.

It should also be noted that being insulted has nothing to do with other people. Words are subjective and impacts people differently. When words are the same, yet reactions are different, I think it's pretty easy to point out that maybe the insulted are to blame for their reactions than the insulters. i.e. insults and offenses are not inherently offensive; individuals allow them to be offensive.

Just my two cents.

Originally posted by Odessy
also, and a little off topic..
Americans killed like 16 million Indians when we colonized the nation and expanded from coast to coast.
so its not surprising that more than 6 million jews were killed.

human history is sad, and repeats itself.

I would need to argue that number in there was about 10 to 12 million total in North America with about 90 million in all Americas. If you are counting disease brought over as part of that killing then you are misleading the point. Also, are you saying that after 1776 ”Americans” killed 16 million?

Of the 10 to 12 million in the first 200 years of Europe coming to America 80% were killed by disease. This is one of the reasons the Europeans were able to get a good foot hold in America. If throughout Europe’s colonization period there was still 12 million Indians things would be much different today for the Indians would have been able to put up a huge resistance front to stop it.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

Labor camps, concentration camps, internment camps - these are all normal things during war, and peacetime.

But the first Concentration Camp in Germany opened in 1933 - do we have all the dates wrong for World War 2 as well?

en.wikipedia.org...

Sure, that's a link to the first concentration camp that opened in
Germany, but it is not the first concentration camp in the world.

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On a final note, I am retiring from this thread. It is not serving it's original purpose and is only drawing the ignorant hive-minds out of the wood work. I would like to thank those individuals that took it upon themselves to open their mind and enter into this mental exercise with me. Thank you.

To everyone else, I can only offer you this:

I have never claimed that the Nazi's caused the deaths.
I have never claimed that the Nazi's did not cause the deaths.

I left it open.

The whole point of the OP was to examine the scenerio and not automatically assume the Nazi's killed every last Jew in Europe.

It's similar to what one would do if they were to examine the world while not automatically assuming that God created it.

That is all...

Originally posted by benign.psychosis
I have never claimed that the Nazi's caused the deaths.
I have never claimed that the Nazi's did not cause the deaths.

I left it open.

The whole point of the OP was to examine the scenerio and not automatically assume the Nazi's killed every last Jew in Europe.

It's similar to what one would do if they were to examine the world while not automatically assuming that God created it.

That is all...

I'm not sure who said you claimed they tried to kill evey Jewish person in Europe, I missed that part.

What's to leave open??? You have some idea in your head that the allies were responsible.

I gaurantee you don't know any Jewish people if you do I bet you're not friends with any. Your thinking is typical of a paranoid person who thinks that everything that their goverment does is for the worst and against them.

Have a nice day.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


How exactly was this thread supposed to be an open discussion about the possible scenario of allied bombing raids being responsible for some or all of the jewish deaths in the camps during WWII?

You stated in the OP that you KNOW it to be true, that it was INDISPUTABLE but when questions arose about specifics of your claims, you ignored them and focused on the more emotional responses. Afterwards you rambled on in a nonsensical fashion untill the people with real questions got sick of reading.

You didnt want discussion, you wanted one sided agreements.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Odessy
also, and a little off topic..
Americans killed like 16 million Indians when we colonized the nation and expanded from coast to coast.
so its not surprising that more than 6 million jews were killed.

human history is sad, and repeats itself.

I would need to argue that number in there was about 10 to 12 million total in North America with about 90 million in all Americas. If you are counting disease brought over as part of that killing then you are misleading the point.

since when does bio-warfare not count? That's ridiculous.

Its a fact that the jews have been persecuted in every country they have lived in and one must ask the question why. Many here ar getting to emotional about an event that has been greatly manipulated for the benefit of certain groups all puishing their own agenda.

Irrespective what happened to the Jews or any other group in Hitlers Germany the fact is that the allies knwe what was going on and did nothing to stop it when they could of ask yourself why not.

It is also a fact that the massive bombing raids over Germany and the occupide territories was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people irrespective of the race or nationality.

None of these actions detract from what the Nazis did but to say all the blame lies with them is wrong. Genocide is committed on a regular basis be it in Africa or Europe but on the whole we sit back and do nothing so in my book we are as guilty as those who do the killing.

You are wrong. The US did do something. It wasn't the US's fault that Germany decided to act cowardly and start torturing people, we only reacted.

It also sounds like in the beginning of your post you're implying that jewish people brought this upon themselves. I certainly hope that isn't what you meant.

[edit on 27-12-2007 by efbeenie]

It's a fact ... Hitler caused the Holocaust ... HITLER! Not the german people! To say this is to say that every American is responsible for the acts of Bush & Cheney and all of the deaths caused by the current War ...

And while I am a proud American ... lets not forget that the War effort being increased by the Allied side probably did make things a lot harder than they already were for those in the camps ... thus probably making the death-tolls, living conditions, and (I think the OPs only attempt at proof) photo/video images captured by the Allies that much worse (at least those of the emaciated and still living) ... but lets not forget we (the World as a whole) were fighting against Hitler's army to save those that could be saved.

Then again there's the theory that more could have been done ealier ... but by that precident we would now have to be in Darfur instead of the oil-rich Middle East ... or that the USA alone committed a 2nd WWII Holocaust by dropping two Nuclear Bombs on Japan ...

While I disagree with the OP I do think that in a place like ATS that we should try to have a little more open mind. Isn't this the place where we come to voice our opinion and debate it WITHOUT being attacked. I think this person's view is very fu ..er ... messed up ... but then again maybe it's a learned thing. A family thing. Look at the original post when it says he needs to protect his source. Later he says a family member once worked on top-level miltary projects. Maybe this is all he's ever known.

Just keep in mind ... an open mind ... maybe his family was taught this from an earlier generation ... maybe this man met someone that convinced him with a few shoddy facts ... maybe he's the descendant of a high-level military figure that knows much, much more than any of us ever will and decided he wanted at least for his family to know the truth as he has seen it ...

Holocausts (PLURAL!) happened during the 30s and 40s and great men and women from around the globe helped to end it. But great men also had a hand in it. I believe that Hitler systematicly tried to eliminate an entire race of people. I believe the United States dropped the most devastating weapon ever known on Japan, not once but twice ... I believe that we are Hypocrites for not intervening in Darfur ... but those are my opinions ... the OP has the right to his no matter how crappy we might find them. But lets debate it ... not attack it

that's a very sick and twisted claim.

i think you should reveal your source, or AT LEAST TALK TO PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THOSE CAMPS!!!!!!! as i am sure they would NOT belive a word of your STORY!!!!!!!!!

you are a fool and a hoaxer (not a very good one i might add)

and yes i do know survivors, tatooed and all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go back to that dirty dark hole you emerged from!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Odessy

...the numbers are not accurate. only 6 million jews were recorded as being killed in the camps...

The numbers are certainly higher. I doubt they're "much higher" in relative terms of six million deaths. But with the Einsatzgruppen operating with the Osteer, there is little doubt that 100,000s of enemies of the Nazi regime were "inefficiently" murdered via hanging, gunshots, and and mass burial prior to the commencement of the Holocaust in earnest in 1942 (the decision prompted by Germany's declaration of War on the US)...

[edit on 27/12/07 by Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by scientist
...

since when does bio-warfare not count? That's ridiculous.

Or what does this have to do with the Holocaust? Was it that the Germans were right in killing the Jews because the French/English/Colonials/Americans killed natives of North America?

Secondly, most of it wasn't "bio-warfare" since there was little knowledge of communicable diseases, and in the most pertinent part of the "Indian Wars" in the last part of the 19th century, few natives were dying of plagues...

And while no one would argue that absolute horrors were inflicted on Native Americans, there were also many tribes that engaged in brutal warfare against whites and each other...


[edit on 27/12/07 by Nickdfresh]