The Holocaust was carried out by the Allies, not the Nazis! (Hypothesis)

I have to protect the source of this information. This is not speculation, or opinion. What you are about to read is the truth. I have attempted to explain a method for arriving at this truth, and although the truth is so deviosly simple, it has been ignored. It is hidden in plain sight. This is their method.

The disinformation was seeded into the public mind, creating a divide. This divide, as with all others is used to distract us from the truth. Red herrings abound, and the directors of public perception have once again fooled many into whimsical fantasies of research and debate. A cult has been created that denies the holocaust entirely. This ensures that the event becomes polarized, which does nothing but obscure reality. The cult was created to cover up the truth of the holocaust - even as it's followers falsely belief that they are working to reveal the truth. It is the driving force behind world condemnation of questioning the true happenings of the holocaust. It is the very idea of holocaust denial that is the catalyst to a complete outlawing of holocaust denial, and public acceptance of such laws via the UN.

"Something" did happen. There is much evidence to prove it - we've all seen the emaciated individuals and the piles of dead bodies. On the other side, there is much evidence to prove that is was a gross exageration - claims of 6 million and a super efficient death machine created of cold-hearted monsters. We will not let that divide-and-conquer red herring distract us here. We will not be walking down a single path, as they want us to. For our purposes we will accept that something did happen, and what is public knowledge of it is a gross exageration. The scope of the exageration has little bearing. Now that we have reconciled the polarity, we have no need to follow a red herring. We have the ability to back up, to look at the whole picture.

We're not going to concentrate on traces of gas in a gas chamber - it only proves gas was there, no proof of how it was used. Testimoney is not proof. Papers are not proof. Reality is the only proof we are concerned
with. We won't concentrate on piles of dead bodies - it only proves piles of dead bodies, not how they died. We won't concentrate on mass graves, they only prove that graves were dug to place dead bodies.

What can we see for sure? What is happening? We must look without judgement, without emotion, without condemnation towards the event.

It is clear what has happened.

Concentration. Starvation. Death. Disease. Burning. Mass Graves

What events could have led up to this situation? The testimony, the papers, the books - they say it was Hitler and the Nazi regime. We can't be bothered with that though, we don't waste our time on interpretative reality. We don't want to look at someone elses perception of an event, we want to look at the event itself.

First, we'll look at a hypothetical situation based on a real world one:

A large population of people are held in a concentrated area. In this particular camp, there are 80,000 individuals. WWII is underway. You are a member of this camp. You, and all citizens of Japanese decent were
brought here by the US government after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. The government is protecting you for your own safety because of the anti-Japanese racial fervor and war hysteria going on in the union.

The axis forces have been slaying away at the allied. Germany's Navy has been built up to an unprecedented level. It controls virtually the entire maritime domain. You've been working in this camp, and are performing forced labor, as applicable by federal law. You're own protection, and support of the war efforts are the main reasons you are here. You eat 3 times a day and get adequet sleep. You are allowed to drink alcohol on the weekends, and you've even heard about a swimming pool, but have never been to it yourself.



Edit of thread title to replace "indisputable" with "hypothesis" to better reflect the data being presented.


[edit on 26-12-2007 by SkepticOverlord]

s you work, you recall a time when you fell over drunk your second weekend, and the guards had a good laugh at you before picking you up and escorting you to the sleeping area.

Fast forward.

The US has been invaded. Supply lines have been severed. No shipments have come in your your camp for weeks. Medical supplies are non-existant and food is sparse. Sickness begins to spread, disease ensues. The emaciated are given what hospice care can be had - which is mostly nothing at all. They can not be fed, the military personel are given priority for food and supplies. Offers are made to starve to death or be executed by request - nothing can be done - Germany has halted all shipments of supplies by performing regular bombing raids. Many take advantage of the situation and try to steal what little supplies are left from the military personel. They are executed at gun point - it is the only justice here. Photographs are taken as evidence.

Disease begins to spread faster. The infected must be killed, and their bodies burned in order to save the healthy body of internees. Those that die of starvation are put in mass graves and covered. Photographic
evidence is taken. Some are sent to "forbidden" zones so that they do not infect the rest. They die. The war finially ends, and the survivors return to the real world. You are one of them. You've seen guards execute people, you've seen bodies burned, you've seen mass graves, you've seen piles of emaciated bodies. You've almost starved to death yourself. The whole experience is devoid of reason. You where barely cogent during the incident due to the starvation and fear.

After the war is over, you hear news about these camps. You here news that the axis forces have discovered information revealing that the camps were created to exterminate every Japanese person in America. You thught they were merely labor camps at first, but you vouch for it! You've seen it all! You were almost exterminated! You've witnessed the killings! You've seen the graves! You tell everyone! These camps must have been created under the false pretense of labor camps, only to achieve the goal of extermination of the Japanese - The enemies of America - those that bombed Pearl Harbor.

Typical axis propaganda:

"US Military Police torenting Japanese"

Wait, no. That can't be right! That is a photo of you when you fell down drunk when you first arrived!"

"Nazi soldiers threatening the life of a Japanese man"

wait, no! He's shaving his beard, very careful not to cut the man!

A Japanese woman from Okinawa, victim of starvation experiment in the Dachau "hospital"


You recognize the area! It's the area where the starving women were held for hospice under nurse care. They provided the women with blankets and pillows and kept them from being raped by the others.

"force labor at a nazi death camp"


You did this type of work when you first arrived. The same labor that prisonors do in prison, and the same type of labor that *anyone* would be doing if they wound up in an internment camp during an invasion or war. Anyone would do it, and they'd like it under US federal law. You remember that is was like this before the supplies stopped coming in... you think for a second. You ask yourself why the supplies stopped coming in. You can't recall ever hearing why. You just remember the devastation and outbreak of disease and starvation. You remember the executions. The bodies. The Graves.

You pause for a second. You question your treatment there. You begin to question what you saw. You begin to realize the truth. Where they really trying to exterminate us?

Why didn't they just shoot everyone? Why didn't they kill everyone? Why were there survivors? Survivors of what? you ask.

Sorry if not everyone got a casket.

Sorry if we had to dig mass graves and throw the bodies in there.

Sorry if we have to execute some people who had highly communicable disease, or send others into the "forbidden zone" to protect the healthy body of inmates.

Sorry we don't have any supplies, the axis forces have been bombing our supply line.

Sorry we couldn't feed you.

We had to be efficient and systematic to protect the healthy internees. They survived well.


"Thanks Germany! It was the thought that counted. Sorry history took a dump on you!"

----

It's kind of like coming home to find a dead person in your house, only to have the cops show up right after and pin the crime on you - except that in this case the real murderer wasn't a person. It was the reality that concentrated population, war, disrupted logistics, and disease brings.

The fact that it is illegal to question, or re-investigate in 13 countries, that it is a hate crime to deny it in many others, and is being pushed by the UN to be a total world-wide crime should make any thinking person realize that there is a coverup, a concealment of data, and probably a conspiracy.

It doesn't even take much to start the causal chain of events that ends up being known as the Holocaust.

It comes down to one simple action: halt the supply shipments to the camps. Who is responsible for doing that?
The allied forces, no one else. The holocaust was causal epidemic created by the allied forces. The allies didn't want the dirt on their hands, so they let lose the propaganda machine. The graves, the bodies, the gas - it was all there. They propaganda machine only had to apply a context.

Germany was betting that the allied forces wouldn't bomb supply trains going to civilian internment camps, just as we bet that our medical men and chaplains won't be gunned down on the battle field. These camps where set up to protect the Jewish population from the rabid anti-semetic attitude that swept through out Europe in the 30's and 40's.

The allied forces continually bombed supply lines, complete with food, medical equipment, drinkable water, clothing, etc.. headed for the internment camps - this is an indisputable fact and the direct cause of the holocaust. Other such supply trains were captured by allied forces and used as their own. The allied forces sacrificed those lives so that they had a sure shot at winning the war.

A smear campaign against Germany was created to protect the simple fact that the death of those interned was do to the actions of the pro-zionist allied forces. We all know what happened next.



[edit on 25-12-2007 by benign.psychosis]

reply to post by benign.psychosis


benign.psychosis, I have read your post, and I understand most of what you are imply, I watch the horrible pictures, and for the first time on ATS I am not be able to respond.
I am complete silenced.

you're joking, right? Since the allies bombed the supply lines, they caused the holocaust? Are you trying to lead people to believe that the camps were merely labor camps? What about places like Sobibór where the only aim of the camp was to kill people? Where less than one percent of all the people who arrived there died?

C'mon man. You can't expect us to believe the allies KNEW where the supplies were headed. That's just ridiculous. It's WAR. Those same supplies that would feed starving Jews (like the ones at Treblinka I, a labor camp), would feed Nazis as well.

The Allies didn't cause the Holocaust. And saying that is almost offensive.

im not buying it either. so i guess that all of Dr. Joseph Mangla "experiments" were not real either? as you said we have to throw out all other evidece for your theroy to work. but you can believe what ever you want.

Originally posted by DaleGribble
im not buying it either. so i guess that all of Dr. Joseph Mangla "experiments" were not real either? as you said we have to throw out all other evidece for your theroy to work. but you can believe what ever you want.

when you consider Operation Paperclip along with all of this, it provides more insight as to a possible motivation for a fraudulent holocaust. The USA changed drastically due to us acquiring Nazi scientists and etc. Most of our torture methods and research into Mind Control revolved around "enemy" tactics.

I'm not really leaning either way on the Holocaust issue, however it seems more than obvious that the tragedy of the holocaust has been exploited for many reasons, it would not shock me at all to find that the number have been artificially inflated for political reasons.

reply to post by scientist


well anythig is possible. many medical advances were because of Joseph Mangla's "experiments". i understan that alot of our methoids come from the Nazi's which to me would further prove that these things really happened. they had all the human test subjects they could ever want or need.

Originally posted by benign.psychosis

We're not going to concentrate on traces of gas in a gas chamber - it only proves gas was there, no proof of how it was used. Testimoney is not proof. Papers are not proof. Reality is the only proof we are concerned
with. We won't concentrate on piles of dead bodies - it only proves piles of dead bodies, not how they died. We won't concentrate on mass graves, they only prove that graves were dug to place dead bodies.

Maybe spending some time with a survivor of one of the camps who has a Nazi placed tattoo on his arm in a form of a number and who witnessed countless times friends and family being led into such chambers, hearing the screams and then smelling the burning bodies after watching them being dragged out of such chambers and dumped in a pile can shed light on "proof of how it was used" for ya.

..... The testimony, the papers, the books - they say it was Hitler and the Nazi regime. We can't be bothered with that though, we don't waste our time on interpretative reality. We don't want to look at someone elses perception of an event, we want to look at the event itself.

Can you be "bothered" by the thousands of hours of Nazi made video that 'they made' to document the "event" which the Nazi's made partly because they believed the footage would be their historical proof of how they conquered the world and made it a better place for 'their superior race'? In the video's it sure looks "indisputable" that it was Hitler and the Nazi regime to me.

All said IMO though.
Bzzzzzzz

Ah.

The Allied forces were responsible for the Nazi's policies of systematically singling people out, then implementing walled off ghettos and transit camps before putting them into forced labour camps?

Was it the allies who rounded people up and machine gunned them into mass graves?

I suppose they also built the gas chambers too?

Did we also write Rudolf Hess, Goebbels and Hitlers speeches?

I suggest that the OP goes and learns proper history.

reply to post by mig12

C'mon man. You can't expect us to believe the allies KNEW where the supplies were headed.

So, this is where the line is drawn? Whether they KNEW or not? Anyway, they had top notch intelligence and sat recon pictures of concentration camps. They knew where the trains were and where they were heading. It shouldn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out the possible routes of trains.

So what if they didn't know? If they did know, you'd just hear the excuse that every scmuck gives, "Oh, uh, I didn't know!" Would they want to world to know that they accidently helped cause the deaths of all those people by cutting of food and medical supplies to millions? or would they smear it?

It's simply a matter of logistics. The major bulk transportation of supplies were bombed or taken by the allied forces. What little supplies did get into the camps were OF COURSE given to the German Military.

What about places like Sobibór?

What about places like that? There is no irrefutable proof that Jews were killed there. It was destroyed in early 1940, and for good reason.

Originally posted by DaleGribble
reply to post by scientist

 

well anythig is possible. many medical advances were because of Joseph Mangla's "experiments". i understan that alot of our methoids come from the Nazi's which to me would further prove that these things really happened. they had all the human test subjects they could ever want or need.

right, I look at it like this: If US scientists were in any way involved or even proved to condone such experiments, there would have been global outrage. Why not allow the Nazi scientists to do all the tests, then just give them a private escort to the safety of the USA to compile the results?

If you look into the financing of the Nazis, there are a plethora of links between US politicians / businessmen and the Nazi party. It's entirely possible (any my own opinion) that the US knew very well what was going on, and probably even making suggestions / requests for certain experiments.

Again feeding into the concept of the Holocaust being used to point agiant finger at Germany, to distract any attention towards the "allies."

Originally posted by BuzzingOn
Maybe spending some time with a survivor of one of the camps who has a Nazi placed tattoo on his arm in a form of a number and who witnessed countless times friends and family being led into such chambers, hearing the screams and then smelling the burning bodies after watching them being dragged out of such chambers and dumped in a pile can shed light on "proof of how it was used" for ya.

let me just reiterate that I am not a holocaust denier or anything of the sort, however I am highly skeptical. This type of "fact" is not acceptable, just as the prisoners from Plato's Allegory of the Cave would not be valid sources of information. Same exact reason too, it's a relative experience filled with emotional and personal filtering, not an objective observation.

This type of emotional response is not proving anything at all.

Originally posted by BuzzingOn

Maybe spending some time with a survivor of one of the camps who has a Nazi placed tattoo on his arm in a form of a number and who witnessed countless times friends and family being led into such chambers, hearing the screams and then smelling the burning bodies after watching them being dragged out of such chambers and dumped in a pile can shed light on "proof of how it was used" for ya.

When you assume, you make an ass - well you know how it goes.

Well, if you want to use that as proof, then I offer you proof of alien abduction due to the many survivors of said abductions. I also offer proof of bigfoot due to the many big foot witnessed sightings. I also offer proof of God due to the testimony of Christians. I offer you proof that there were explosives planted in the World Trade Center due to the many witnesses, and offer you proof that their weren't by the same! I offer proof that prisoners are constantly abused by prison personel based on prisoner testimony and I offer you proof of Ghosts, Orbs, and whatever else you might want because of countless witnessed statements. I offer you proof that the virgin mary appeared on a stain class window on more than one occasion because of testimony. I offer proof that Bush was elected by the people, for the people because of poll results. Hell, I offer you proof of the NWO because over 1000 people on ATS believe it!

You get the point. A consensus does not a reality make.

Can you be "bothered" by the thousands of hours of Nazi made video that 'they made' to document the "event" which the Nazi's made partly because they believed the footage would be their historical proof of how they conquered the world and made it a better place for 'their superior race'? In the video's it sure looks "indisputable" that it was Hitler and the Nazi regime to me.

I was watching "transformers" the other night, and I swear it looked like those robots were transforming into cars and trucks. Many people swear there is a face on mars. I was watching a video called "Lion attacks man for no reason" and believed it. I later found the frst 5 seconds of the video where the man tried to shoot the lion. It was once thought that it was obvious that the earth was flat and the sun orbited the earth. I offer you proof that the alcoholic was being obnoxious from the cop, and offer you proof that the cop over stepped his boundries from the alcoholic. I was watching a video of a plastic surgery and swore that the guy was cutting someones face open, he was! Sailers swore they saw Mermaids, and people in the desert see mirages. Dehydrated and sleepy people can experience strong hallucinations, and emanciated, tired, starving people can imagine all kinds of wild stuff, can't they?

You get the point. Individual perspective does not a reality make.

One must look elsewhere.

reply to post by benign.psychosis


so we are just suppose to support you because you think its right. these are you conclusions based on the way you precive things. that goes aginst every thing you said in the above post. but that is just my preception. wow my whole reality is a farce using that logic...

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by BuzzingOn
Maybe spending some time with a survivor of one of the camps who has a Nazi placed tattoo on his arm in a form of a number and who witnessed countless times friends and family being led into such chambers, hearing the screams and then smelling the burning bodies after watching them being dragged out of such chambers and dumped in a pile can shed light on "proof of how it was used" for ya.

let me just reiterate that I am not a holocaust denier or anything of the sort, however I am highly skeptical. This type of "fact" is not acceptable, just as the prisoners from Plato's Allegory of the Cave would not be valid sources of information. Same exact reason too, it's a relative experience filled with emotional and personal filtering, not an objective observation.

This type of emotional response is not proving anything at all.

It's nice to see one other person who can recognize the application of information. I'm in the same boat as scientist. I'm highly skeptical as well, and I'm merely introducing a portrayal of the holocaust specifically aligned with cause and effect - not emotion or an fairy-tale of evil nazi scientists who make soap and lampshades from humans.

Such emotional responses do not belong in this thread. I hope it was clear in my previous post as to why such examples are not reliable and do not prove anything.

If I can be more specific: The aim is to analyze the trajectory of the ball, find out where it came from, how fast it was going, and where it ended up.

We do not want to know what the crowed thought about the ball, what the pitcher was thinking as he threw the ball, or how big the fan base of the team is. We don't much care for if the pitcher hated the batter, or the umpire slept with the pitchers wife.

These are not important and only skew the reality of the ball. The thing that must be concentrated on is the ball.

Keep your eye on the ball

May be offtopic, but at least your not claiming "The Holocaust was carried out by the Aliens, not the Nazis! Indisputable!" because thats how I first read it, lol I was thinking what kind of crazy people are coming to ATS lately. Sorry about this, just thought it was funny.

Originally posted by neformore
Ah.

The Allied forces were responsible for the Nazi's policies of systematically singling people out, then implementing walled off ghettos and transit camps before putting them into forced labour camps?

Was it the allies who rounded people up and machine gunned them into mass graves?

I suppose they also built the gas chambers too?

Did we also write Rudolf Hess, Goebbels and Hitlers speeches?

I suggest that the OP goes and learns proper history.

By "proper history", do you mean the "official story"?

I think we ALL know better than that.

Beyond that, if you are going to continue to insinuate that I've said certain things by using strawmen, I kindly ask for you to cease posting in this thread. Fallacy does not suit you.

In the end, you've manged to promote nothing but ignorance.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
May be offtopic, but at least your not claiming "The Holocaust was carried out by the Aliens, not the Nazis! Indisputable!" because thats how I first read it, lol I was thinking what kind of crazy people are coming to ATS lately. Sorry about this, just thought it was funny.

LOL. No problem. The funny thing is that after I posted it, I also thought I mistakenly typed "Aliens". I considered changing it to the Allieds, but figured, "Hmm.. maybe more people will look at it now."

Since word recognition most relies on patterns of letters, and not the individual letters themselves, I might expect that others also read it as "Aliens" on first glance.

The OP is a typical denier. I would say they are probably a NAZI skinhead as well. They expect they can obfuscate the facts with long winded passages of basically nothing but personal conjecture. No facts, no proof, only opinion and what if's. The OP has ignored history, they have failed to peruse the NAZI's own records and footage which clearly tell the history of the death camps. I do not understand why this thread is allowed and the OP is not banned. The NAZIS tried to defend themselves in trials at Nuremburg. I am including a link so the OP may familiarize themselves with history as it is PROVEN to have taken place.

Nuremburg Nazi Trials