FLIGHT 93 - The Biggest 911 Smoking Gun!

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

Your question doesnt make any sense. The investigation was done, based on the data recorders, the airfone calls, the statements of the gate agents who handled flight 93, and the ground witnesses, they established that flight 93 was hijacked by Arab terrorists and intentionally flown into the ground during an attempt by the passengers to access the cockpit. Im sure if you got a copy of any of the death certificates for the crew/passengers it states "severe bodily trauma due to aircraft accident" What more do you want?

I am basing it on your own words:

"To my knowledge other than certain avionics that were onboard the jet, no one has published a detailed report of the parts that were recovered. That is something that would be done as part of a crash investigation in which they were trying to decide what caused the plane to crash. That really wasnt needed on 9/11/01. Now, the reports on the data recorders that were recovered have been published and available for some time. "

How does one do an investigation when there is no evidence to investigate? No identifiable plane parts, no bodies, no luggage. Nothing to identify a specific plane crashed as alleged.

Airphone? What was all the reporting being done about all those cell phones? Did the US bureaucrats finally learn cell phone calls cannot be made from airplanes high in the air? Unless, the planes are equipped for people to use cell phones at high altitudes. The plot for the "official" report just keeps getting thicker and spookier.

To this day, small parts of flight 93 continue to be found at the crash site and in each case, these parts are required to be turned over to law enforcement...and will continue to be until the case is officially closed (when we either capture Osama Bin Laden or verify his death).

Well, parts of some plane(s) may be found. However, there is no positive ID that any specific plane crashed in PA. That would have to come from the plane itself. There was no parts of the plane, with ID numbers, located. Even one part with a letter or number is going to be much larger than a telephone book.

The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder that were serially tracked as being on that airframe were recovered from the smoking hole in the ground in Pennsylvania. Face it, you are another poster on this board that will never accept what happened that day because no one came and escorted you to the crash site so you could see it for yourself.

That box survived but a positively identified plane attached to that box is nowhere to be found. That is unheard of in all documented history of aviation.

@Zaphod58: Good point.

I've always found the way the jet just disappeared into the ground to be very odd. There is 80 tons of metal down there!! Where is it all (even if it is unidentifiable?)

[edit on 23-12-2007 by mirageofdeceit]

This seems to be in conflict with the theory that all the fuel was atomized and that there was no secondary burn,

You mean as in the theories postulated by people who were NOT AT the crash site? Key word...THEORY.

...This would also suggest that human remains would have been more than the size of teeth.

And there were remains larger than the size of teeth (part of a spine with three vertabrae attached, jawbone etc)

I seek the truth. If I cannot see the pictures, then another independent investigator should be able to view them to confirm the facts.

Why an "independant" investigator? Because near as I can tell, the definition of "independant" on this board means someone who believe the government conspired to pull off 9/11.

I have never seen any forensic reports regarding this crash posted anywhere.

And why would they be posted on the internet? You, as a private citizen, do not have the right to view autopsy reports for people you are not related to.

I find it very odd (disrespectful, considering who he is), that he would say "...after 20 minutes I stopped being coroner because there were no bodies..." regardless of context. "...It became like a giant funeral service..." is a strange phrase for a coroner to say, considering they are not men/women "of the cloth" as it were.

Why is it disrespectful? What is the job of a coroner? To determine cause of death, and when he walked around seeing the pitifully small pieces of bone and tissue that used to be human beings, it was rather obvious what the cause of death was going to be. I dont find that odd in the slightest.

First, he found no bodies. Then he identified bodies he did not find when first arriving at the scene. He does not say where they were when he found them. Obviously, not at any crash scene, because he says they were not there. Where did they suddenly arrive from and when?

No, he identified REMAINS (small pieces of bodies), not bodies.

I would be curious how he took DNA samples

Depends on what type of body fragment was found. Tissue or bone..not hard to do a google search to find some information about the identification efforts.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

And there were remains larger than the size of teeth (part of a spine with three vertabrae attached, jawbone etc)

They only found skeletal parts? How did they manage to ID those, particularly with DNA or dental records? Jawbones do not always have the teeth in them. Why only skeletal parts? What happened to any soft tissue that should have been on the jawbone and vertebrae? When and where did they find only skeletal parts?

Why an "independant" investigator? Because near as I can tell, the definition of "independant" on this board means someone who believe the government conspired to pull off 9/11.

That is your interpretation, but is not necessarily correct. Independent meaning reputable scientist interested only in extracting the truth no matter what the proved results say.

That is how science testing is conducted. No reputable scientiest takes the word of any other scientist at face value. Mortician Miller does not appear to be like an expert in positive identification, because he does not appear to be versed in forensic or genetic science. It takes a geneticist to run DNA testing, and take samples when there is no soft tissue. Then it depends on whether the DNA is done by blood draw, swab testing, blood splatters, saliva on stamps, etc.

What samples did he take and who did he ship them to? If it was a bureaucratic facility, independent testing absolutely needs to be done, particularly in a case labeled Flight 93.

Why is it disrespectful? What is the job of a coroner? To determine cause of death, and when he walked around seeing the pitifully small pieces of bone and tissue that used to be human beings, it was rather obvious what the cause of death was going to be. I dont find that odd in the slightest.

Coroners are normally physicians highly studied in forensic science. They do not do it as a sideline to their mortician practice. Or is being a mortician a sideline to be the coroner?

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

Depends on what type of body fragment was found. Tissue or bone..not hard to do a google search to find some information about the identification efforts.

Since you brought it up, I would have thought you would have researched exactly what was done and credentials of the person stated to have done all that ID work. Plus, provided valid evidence the work was done as stated. That is what you would expect someone else to do to prove their points, isn't it?

[edit on 23-12-2007 by OrionStars]

reply to post by mirageofdeceit

I find it very odd (disrespectful, considering who he is), that he would say "...after 20 minutes I stopped being coroner because there were no bodies..." regardless of context. "...It became like a giant funeral service..." is a strange phrase for a coroner to say, considering they are not men/women "of the cloth" as it were.

I concur. A crime scene is not a funeral service, and should never be confused as such. Clearly his investigative objectivity is lost. As a coroner, it his job is to gather the bodies, however fragmented they may be, and to investigate rigorously. Seems to me he was already thinking ahead to profits for his private business, not to his duties as a public official.

If there was anything still burning after the initial explosion we should see signs of secondary burns in the photos, as well as fuel. If there was indeed anything left burning at all, we should have seen the more traditional dark and greasy smoke plume expected at crash-sites. If clothing was still burning, as claimed, this would suggest at least limb-sized fragments contained within the burning clothing.

I would like to clear up something else in regard to a coroners duties as well. Just because the victims were obviously in a plane crash, does not mean that this is how they died. If they were poisoned before-hand for example, it would be his duty to determine that. This is elementary. If a corpse is found in a burning house, it does not mean the fire is the cause or manner of death.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
If there was anything still burning after the initial explosion we should see signs of secondary burns in the photos, as well as fuel. If there was indeed anything left burning at all, we should have seen the more traditional dark and greasy smoke plume expected at crash-sites. If clothing was still burning, as claimed, this would suggest at least limb-sized fragments contained within the burning clothing.

One fact about DNA. Burned soft tissue makes it impossible to test DNA. Same with bone marrow when that is compromised by higher heat (true temperature reading at the source). That is why cremated bodies cannot be tested for DNA. Yet, it does not take nearly the BTUS of cremation to completely compromise the testable properties of DNA throughout a body.

This picture was taken in the 'wing scars'. as u can see there is no scar, no wing, nothing, no fire either. Its conclusive no plane crashed in Shanksville.

No Plane, No bodies.

There is an abvious cover up, and that cover up will extend into websites like this one.
Yes I am saying it. There are people here that are paid to instigate, irritate, argue, and muddy the waters.

We know who you are.

So in conclusion after interviewed witnesses then the pictures. No plane crashed in ShanksVille.

Want to tell people that 911 was not what it seemed?tell them about FLIGHT 93. They cant be convinced a plane crashed there.

[edit on 23-12-2007 by IvanZana]

They only found skeletal parts? How did they manage to ID those, particularly with DNA or dental records? Jawbones do not always have the teeth in them. Why only skeletal parts? What happened to any soft tissue that should have been on the jawbone and vertebrae? When and where did they find only skeletal parts?

Did I say they only found skeletal parts? NO, I gave examples of parts they did find. If you had bothered to read the rest of the thread I also posted part of a statement from one of the first people on the scene who found "human tissue"

That is how science testing is conducted. No reputable scientiest takes the word of any other scientist at face value. Mortician Miller does not appear to be like an expert in positive identification, because he does not appear to be versed in forensic or genetic science. It takes a geneticist to run DNA testing, and take samples when there is no soft tissue. Then it depends on whether the DNA is done by blood draw, swab testing, blood splatters, saliva on stamps, etc

Im guessing that Zaphod, myself and a few others are the only ones that do any research other than from conspiracy sites.

The coroner's assessment came yesterday as he confirmed that the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory has used DNA samples to match recovered remains with the last of 40 crew members and passengers aboard the hijacked jetliner 14 weeks ago when it slammed into a recovered strip mine at around 500 mph

www.post-gazette.com...



Protocols established for the handling and identification of Flight 93 remains...
www.dmort.org...

More on who helped ID the remains

history.amedd.army.mil...

More information on the process

www.semp.us...

www.cstl.nist.gov...

If it was a bureaucratic facility, independent testing absolutely needs to be done, particularly in a case labeled Flight 93.

If you are a citizen of the United States and you absolutely hate our government and those of us who work for it....why do you still live here? If you are not a citizen of the United States, then with all due respect why should we care about your opinion?

Since you brought it up, I would have thought you would have researched exactly what was done and credentials of the person stated to have done all that ID work. Plus, provided valid evidence the work was done as stated.

The Armed Forces Insitute of Pathology is without equal when it comes to the job of identifying human remains. And again, you are looking for reports that, as a private citizen, you have absolutely NO right to see. Its called the law and its also called respect for the families of the victims.

A crime scene is not a funeral service, and should never be confused as such. Clearly his investigative objectivity is lost. As a coroner, it his job is to gather the bodies, however fragmented they may be, and to investigate rigorously. Seems to me he was already thinking ahead to profits for his private business, not to his duties as a public official.

Im not surprised that you completely misunderstood what he was saying. He did coordinate the recovery of the remains and the processing for their shipment to the AFIP for identification. He made no profits from his job. Indeed, he went far above and beyond the call of duty when it came to the families of Flight 93.

If there was anything still burning after the initial explosion we should see signs of secondary burns in the photos, as well as fuel. If there was indeed anything left burning at all, we should have seen the more traditional dark and greasy smoke plume expected at crash-sites. If clothing was still burning, as claimed, this would suggest at least limb-sized fragments contained within the burning clothing

Well since the photos show a large chunk of the woods were burned and we have statements of first responders about "pools of jet fuel" what is your point with that statement? And as for the reports about the clothing...that should be the first hint and a half that there was LUGGAGE that came apart too.

Just because the victims were obviously in a plane crash, does not mean that this is how they died. If they were poisoned before-hand for example, it would be his duty to determine that. This is elementary. If a corpse is found in a burning house, it does not mean the fire is the cause or manner of death

If the state of the remains will allow for the determination, the remains from Flight 93 werent.

One fact about DNA. Burned soft tissue makes it impossible to test DNA. Same with bone marrow when that is compromised by higher heat (true temperature reading at the source). That is why cremated bodies cannot be tested for DNA. Yet, it does not take nearly the BTUS of cremation to completely compromise the testable properties of DNA throughout a body.

Hence the use of dental records and other methods....

Originally posted by IvanZana

They didnt pull any bones out of this hole. Coz no plane crashed in Shanksville

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999


Did I say they only found skeletal parts? NO, I gave examples of parts they did find. If you had bothered to read the rest of the thread I also posted part of a statement from one of the first people on the scene who found "human tissue"

Since you now say they were only examples - fine. However, exactly what condition did they find the "human tissue" and exactly which "human tissue" did they find? DNA helix is not found in all "human tissue", and compromised it becomes worthless.

[Im guessing that Zaphod, myself and a few others are the only ones that do any research other than from conspiracy sites.

I can only speak for myself. You would be guessing wrong concerning me.

The coroner's assessment came yesterday as he confirmed that the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory has used DNA samples to match recovered remains with the last of 40 crew members and passengers aboard the hijacked jetliner 14 weeks ago when it slammed into a recovered strip mine at around 500 mph


www.post-gazette.com...

Using a government facility and no other testing is enough validation for you? It is not for me. But then I am studied in the sciences - particularly genetics.

If you are a citizen of the United States and you absolutely hate our government and those of us who work for it....why do you still live here? If you are not a citizen of the United States, then with all due respect why should we care about your opinion?

That is is a certainly an obvious strawman argument when running out of options to validate points and counterpoints.

Science validation requires independent testing by well more than one source. That is because too many people, calling themselves scientists, have personal agendas, such as having their names placed on results, without desiring any validation or dismissal of results from anyone else independently testing those results.

Since the Bush administration is highly suspect, having a US federal bureaucrat agency do the testing, is considered a conflict of interest in a criminal case. That is like sending in the fox to guard the hen house.

Amen. The people who really hate this nation are those who swallow the lies and insane nonsense that the Bush cabal spews out all day long. NO government source can be trusted: Look at the entire US government since 9-11: Not ONE person or agency has had the nerve to tell the truth. It is all a rehash of the big LIE. The Bush cabal said that certain things happened, and then the bureaucrats fell all over themselves to make sure that the reports all said what he wants them to.

The official story is so ludicrous it is insulting to the intelligence to be asked to believe it. NO scientist of repute will debate private peers on the subject: The cabal refuses to even answer basic questions. The 9-11 Commission Report is and was a total cover up and criminally negligent enterprise meant to insure that the truth was never known: Lead by Zelikow, the Neocon PNAC member and dual Israeli citizen made sure that only the basics were covered and massive amounts of proof covered up. Able Danger. Need I say more?

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

If you are a citizen of the United States and you absolutely hate our government and those of us who work for it....why do you still live here? If you are not a citizen of the United States, then with all due respect why should we care about your opinion?

I object to this statement, which has nothing directly to do with determining the facts. Have you lost your own objectivity, that if presented with evidence you would not change your own opinion? There are plenty of red-blooded Americans who want questions answered, to restore a tarnished faith.

Furthermore, it is no longer of domestic concern. Hundreds of thousands of people have now died as a result of the events on 9/11.

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

He did coordinate the recovery of the remains and the processing for their shipment to the AFIP for identification. He made no profits from his job.

This remains to be seen. I am not saying you are wrong, but I have seen no evidence to support your opinion.

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

Well since the photos show a large chunk of the woods were burned and we have statements of first responders about "pools of jet fuel" what is your point with that statement? And as for the reports about the clothing...that should be the first hint and a half that there was LUGGAGE that came apart too.

There is a discrepency in the evidence brought forth for the burning in the woods. Initial photos showed no such burning.

Why did "pools of jet fuel" not ignite? Where is a single photo showing such residue? Why was there only one puff of smoke, instead of the continuous black greasy smoke plume common in airline disasters?

This comes from your source.

Investigators who recovered remains from the Shanksville-area crash site brought possible stab wounds and lacerations to the attention of FBI pathologists, Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller said yesterday. But the FBI has responded that "the catastrophic nature of the crash and fragmentation" left them unable to draw conclusions, Miller said.

Although it may have been impossible to determine if stab wounds were indeed cause of death, there were fragments large enough to display the wounds. Why are no such fragments apparent in the photos? This quote would lend support to my statement that if there were indeed body fragments present at the scene, they were larger than what has generally been decribed.

I can only speak for myself. You would be guessing wrong concerning me.

After reading some of your posts, I dont think so.

Using a government facility and no other testing is enough validation for you? It is not for me. But then I am studied in the sciences - particularly genetics.

Since when are multiple facilities needed to determine identification of human remains? Oh, only when it is the GOVERNMENT (thanks for once again validating statements I have posted). The AFIP remains as the premier facility for identifying human remains. As for being studied in the sciences, I again look back to some of your posts and suggest you should ask for your money back. Unless you are self-taught....thats something else entirely.

That is is a certainly an obvious strawman argument when running out of options to validate points and counterpoints.

Except its not an argument. It is a statement from a career member of the United States military who is tired of being accused of all sorts of heinous actions by people like you. You are unwilling to believe the emergency response teams, the coroner, the law enforcement personnel, the volunteers, the eyewitnesses, the physical evidence and finally the local, state and federal government when it comes to flight 93. So the question remains, if you do not like it here...why are you still here?

Science validation requires independent testing by well more than one source. That is because too many people, calling themselves scientists, have personal agendas, such as having their names placed on results, without desiring any validation or dismissal of results from anyone else independently testing those results.

Except this isnt "science validation", its the identification of human remains, no other time is "testing by well more than one source" required for this.

Since the Bush administration is highly suspect, having a US federal bureaucrat agency do the testing, is considered a conflict of interest in a criminal case.

And again, you lump ALL of us government employees into the "Bush administration". The only reason why the "Bush Administration" is "highly suspect" is because too many people are so willing to believe everything they read on the internet.

NO government source can be trusted: Look at the entire US government since 9-11: Not ONE person or agency has had the nerve to tell the truth. It is all a rehash of the big LIE

Shall we take up a collection for you to emigrate as well?

The air pirates have been identified as Ziad Jarrah, Ahmed Al Haznawi, Saeed Al Ghamdi and Ahmed Al Nami -- but not so positively identified that officials will list the names in official records.

Quote found here at the Post-Gazette.

If they could not be positively identified, then how do we know they were al-Qaeda?

I object to this statement, which has nothing directly to do with determining the facts. Have you lost your own objectivity, that if presented with evidence you would not change your own opinion? There are plenty of red-blooded Americans who want questions answered, to restore a tarnished faith.

Object all you want to. I have not lost ANY of my objectivity. I have seen enough evidence and talked to enough of my friends who were THERE that day.

You want to discuss evidence, there is a hell of a lot more evidence that muslim extremists hijacked flight 93 and crashed it when the passengers attempted to retake the plane than there is that its some American born conspiracy.

I question your need to believe that the US Government is evil.....not very objective is it?