US: thanks for destroying our world!

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
Sorry Charlie, no joke. Please stay within the bounds of reality.

So, that's it?

You say something is the case, and we bow to your supposed overwhelming knowledge. Right...

[edit on 14-12-2007 by melatonin]

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan


What should I be grateful for?

Funding of terrorist groups like the IRA (which killed a family member of mine)? setting up secret prisions? exploiting the economic aftermath of the second world war to make America richer? Kidnapping our citizens and subjecting them to torture in a prison camp in Cuba?

And as for arrogance, I was unaware that Europe likes to think it's above international law when it comes to their soliders killing other countries troops and refusing to take part in a inquest

We all have our faults, but come on!! " Evil America "
What about the rest of the world
Are we the only evil ones? Man you guys got alot to learn and need to quit believing everything you read. I think it's just jealousy again, can't handle the fact that we went through HELL to get where we are today! We all make mistakes, nobody is perfect, but America is not the only evil country on this planet.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Starting a Troll Thread drives people apart so this actually makes the problem worse. But then activists never have done anything but whine.

I think the thread is pretty vacuous myself in many ways.

Troll thread? It's the concern trolls that bother me, they come over with faux reasonability, but they are quite transparent. Prefer the obvious trolls myself. Less misleading.

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
Sorry Charlie, no joke. Please stay within the bounds of reality.

So, that's it?

You say something is the case, and we bow to your supposed overwhelming knowledge. Right...

How old are you? Have you been living under a rock?
If you have not heard about the scientists who predicted 30 years ago that we should be in a ice age now then you must read more. Just do a quick google search if that is not to much work for you.

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan

Thats fine but why did you not do the same for the 'knuckle dragger' I was quoting.

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
How old are you? Have you been living under a rock?
If you have not heard about the scientists who predicted 30 years ago that we should be in a ice age now then you must read more. Just do a quick google search if that is not to much work for you.

Possibly older than you, not sure.

Yes, I know a few did suggest such a thing. But it was never a widely held view in any way.

Most of these so called scientists who believe humans are causing GW are the same ones who thought we would be in a ice age about right now

So, back it up. Most of them?

Troof by google. Excellent.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


Carl Sagan held it, and he's generally not considered to be some no name in this arena. It was the prevailing concern at the time, along with the fear of a nuclear winter, cooling the Earth after an exchange.

realistically, if the USA were to make these cuts, it would lead to a dramatic change of industry in the US. Additionally, in order to implement these changes it would cost billions of dollars to wheen us off of the CO2 dependancy. Meaning, new solar generators, wind mill farms, to replace the coal plants. Nuclear power to be built up to which takes 10-15 years.

Additionally, once we made these changes, our industries, (mostly service) would be so drastically altered, it would cause mass layoffs, and lead us into a recession, or depression. This being said, we would only be replaced by either china, or india economically, militarily, and eventually commercially. While they do lack behind the U.S. in CO2 emission, they have the ability to not reinvent the wheel, and thus can rely on what Europe, and the U.S. have learned to make themselves more viable.

What your basically doing though, is asking the Westren World to give up its power, and allow a reallignment of power to occur in 3rd world nations.
Do you really want people that can't get along, blow themselves up, starve there people, and otherwise can't act reasonably to lead the world in "Peaceful" co-existances?

Get real, its not going to happen. We are currently the super-power of the world. Although we are, we won't be forever, and eventually we will be replaced by someone else. We as a people and a government will continue to ride this powerful horse all the way up till it dies, and you know what, when people start dying, it's not going to be us, its going to be the 3rd world nations that have pissed there opportunites away for the last 300 years.

Here's a clue in life, you either take advantage, or get taken advantage of. If the US and Europe wasn't doing it, somebody else would. This isn't paradise, and until the last intelligent consciousness dies, it probably won't be.

Anyway, I'm going to go back into my nice warm house, eat my big fat meal, watch t.v., surf the internet, and continue what I was doing, and what I'll probably keep doing till the earth collapses. As far as the rest of the world, do us Europeans and Americans, and Japanese, Chinese, and Indian a favor, and go die. That way we can colonize your areas with people that aren't such idiots, whining about how you don't have anything, and we have everything.

Cheers,

Camain

P.S. - Marry Christmas, Hanakah, or whatever other religion you believe in.

Originally posted by TexasT
To my fellow countrymen, our European and Asian friends are correct, in that we may not be the largest polluter, but we consistently refuse, as a government and as a people, to do anything about the problem. It's really too late for denials and "wait and see" attitudes.

The U.S. is not the largest polluter. The U.S. has some of the most strict environmental laws on the books and they keep getting more strict which of course has a negative effect on our economy. This is the purpose BTW why China wants the U.S. to sign the Kyoto, so the U.S. will be hurt economically.

Forget for a moment about climate change. Let talk pollution, itself. Let's talk about not being able to let your children swim in the water at the beach, lake or river because they will become ill. Let's talk about entire communities being wiped out by strip mining for coal in the Appalachians. Let's talk about people no longer being able to eat the seafood from Chesapeake Bay.

Your info must be 30 years old. Please provide some proof.
I have been eating Chesapeake crabs for years. Yummy!

I'm sorry to politicize this

I don't think you are sorry. IMO, this was your intention from the beginning.

but my international friends must realize that absolutely nothing will be done about this until January 20, 2009. And that's only if a Democrat becomes president.

"CONSERVATIONISM" used to be a bipartisan concern, but no more. Why do you think they changed the name?

Look, do you think conservatives want to drink dirty water and breath dirty air? Do you think somehow conservatives can seperate the two and only breath the clean air while dems breath the dirty air?
Your entire post was very biased and IMO, very misleading.

Originally posted by camain
As far as the rest of the world, do us Europeans and Americans, and Japanese, Chinese, and Indian a favor, and go die. That way we can colonize your areas with people that aren't such idiots, whining about how you don't have anything, and we have everything.

Good Lord!!



I'm glad you're not at the UN Climate Conference. Abit extreme, don't you think?

I think you mean US as in 'us' - the collective you and me et al.

I say this because I believe that one country is not capable of killing a planet.

Worldwide corporations, business and public ignorance/apathy could. It's a team effort!

The U.S. has it's problems like any other country and focusing on this one country actually detracts from the main, worldwide issue: our main, global and current energy sources are dirty, dated and polluting the environment.

If there is to be any finger pointing then maybe it should be at the developed countries governments, world business corporations and alliances that ensure that world-changing research and development is surpressed to ensure financial control over the populace.

If we all had the 'magic box' in our houses that ensured life-long, safe and clean energy, we would remove another tentacle the powers-that-be have over our lives.

We need to get together, stick together and fight for total transparency on global technological research and development.

This includes an overhaul of the world patent system that surpresses life-saving technology and future technologies that could, eventually, be the holy grail that saves our planet Earth.

[edit on 14/12/2007 by skibtz] - sorry, typo-boy in the house!!

[edit on 14/12/2007 by skibtz]

Originally posted by melatonin
Yes, I know a few did suggest such a thing. But it was never a widely held view in any way.

Yes, it was. It was the same hoopla we are now having over GW. If you are truely older than me then you should realize this fact unless you are intentionally being misleading. Or it could have been because you were a lot younger then and just did not pay attention.

Originally posted by infinite
What should I be grateful for?

I have an idea, let's play a game. We'll start comparing our histories, and then we can see who's hands aren't dirty at the end.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Carl Sagan held it, and he's generally not considered to be some no name in this arena. It was the prevailing concern at the time, along with the fear of a nuclear winter, cooling the Earth after an exchange.

No name in climatology. He was a cosmologist

I can show there was no certainity at all, there was no possibility of reliable predictions beyond - 'we are in an interglacial, eventually it will end'. Some at that time were suggesting such an event in centuries to millenia (e.g., Emiliani). Thus, a few were concerned. But that is not most. The general consensus was purely one of total uncertainty:

Climatic change has been a subject of intellectual interest for many years. However, there are now more compelling reasons for its study: the growing awareness that our economic and social stability is profoundly influenced by climate and that man's activities themselves may be capable of influencing the climate in possibly undesirable ways. The climates of the earth have always been changing, and they will doubtless continue to do so in the future. How large these future changes will be, and where and how rapidly they will occur, we do not know.

NAS/NRC (1975) Understanding climate change

All things being equal, the ice-age cycle will eventually happen, could be 100, 1000, 5000 etc. Although our activity might well alter such events.

Just another obscurantist talking point regurgitated ad nauseum.

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
Yes, it was. It was the same hoopla we are now having over GW. If you are truely older than me then you should realize this fact unless you are intentionally being misleading.

well, where am I misleading? You're making the claim.

Support it. I've just showed that there was widespread uncertainty. The national research council and the national academy of science were saying, 'we don't really know'. The NAS now is entirely supportive of the findings of current climatology (i.e. human-induced warming).

I've been following climatology for almost twenty years, since I left school. I know enough about this stuff.

ABE; or are we doing science by 'The Clash' now?

The ice age is coming, the sun’s zooming in
Engines stop running and the wheat is growing thin
A nuclear error, but I have no fear
’Cause London is drowning, and I live by the river.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by melatonin]

THis whole entire thing is extreme. Lets be realistic. What they are asking us to do is give up dominance. If this were to occur, we would first have choas, followed by a power. I for one don't want the power changed from the U.S., Europe, and Russia, and there allies to someone else. How would it benefit me? It wouldn't, it would only impact my lifestyle, for the worse. I don't want to live like an Ethiopian. I don't want to live like a North Korea. I want to live like a American, and that includes pissing on the rest of these 3rd world nations, taking advantage of them, pillaging there resources, and leaving them to survive on there own after I've done all this. This being said, it doesn't matter the America, NWO, or whatever you want to call it, is doing this right now. If they weren't it would happen at a different time, by a different power. The strong have always preyed on the weak. It's true now, like it was 1000 years ago when The mongols were ravaging Asia, and before then with the power of Rome, Greece, Babylon, and any super-power before. Just like it will happen after the U.S. crumbles, and China, or India, or heck maybe South Africa replaces us. I'm going to eat my cake till its gone, let the rest of the world have there crumbs. They'll have there cake soon enough.

Cheers,

Camain

Originally posted by Mdv2
They are deeply in love with their SUVs and don't see why a smaller less fuel consuming car should be an option to consider when buying a new car.

Bro, I will gladly give up my gas hog SUV if I had a choice.
Don't blame us Americans, blame the government and their
greedy corporations for not giving me a choice as to what
kind of fuel based vehicle I can drive. I don't have a choice.
As 2 creators of free energy vehicles (HHO Gas) have been
murdered for their actions in recent years. And I'm not
intelligent enough to custom design my own water based fuel
vehicle so I have to buy a vehicle that is available. And gas
is the only thing affordable. The electric cars are almost $100,000
while my SUV is less than $30K. And hybrids increase efficiency
but still do not meet emission standards and still use high price
gas. I'm fighting a system that doesn't know how to lose.
So what are my options ??? Walking or riding a bicycle to work
40 miles a day ??? Maybe I could get Fred Flintstone to make
me one of them pedal mobiles like in the cartoon where everybody
runs in place in their seat to create the momentum. But as of right now
I couldn't pedal it uphill in these big mountains I live in. So what
are my choices again other than leaving my own country ??

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan

Originally posted by TexasT

The U.S. is not the largest polluter. The U.S. has some of the most strict environmental laws on the books and they keep getting more strict which of course has a negative effect on our economy. This is the purpose BTW why China wants the U.S. to sign the Kyoto, so the U.S. will be hurt economically.

I said that the US wasn't the worst polluter.

Your info must be 30 years old. Please provide some proof.
I have been eating Chesapeake crabs for years. Yummy!

Health Worries Over Bay Pollution
www.washingtonpost.com...

Big Sam Is in Big Trouble (I can't tell what year this was posted, though.) www.sr-guide.com...

Rhode Island beach closures this summer: www.ribeaches.org...

detnews.com...

www.huntingtonnews.net...

I attempted to find local or unbiased sources. I apologize if any of them are.

There are thousands more on the web, if you care to search.

I don't think you are sorry. IMO, this was your intention from the beginning.

When I was growing up, keeping the environment clean was not a democratic or republican issue. We all wanted fresh drinking water and clean air to breathe.

I attempted to demonstrate that the change of attitude of current republican voters was manipulated by marketing. I am a marketer, and I know how it works.

I used the term "CONSERVATION" and "ENVIRONMENTALISM" to demonstrate how some were purposefully manipulated into thinking that taking care of the environment was anti-conservative, when the two terms are actually closely related and they share the same goals.

So. I was not bashing conservatives.

But, yes I was bashing Republicans (most). Please prove me wrong and I'll happily issue a mea culpa.