US: thanks for destroying our world!

reply to post by Solarskye


A few years ago I moved to Los Angeles, CA, I no longer live there, but on the very first day when I arrived by car on the 110 freeway, my eyes literally started watering up, they were stinging like mad. I immediately knew it was the smog because there was this brownish-yellowish haze hugging the freeway and interfering with the outline of the mountains and skyline of downtown LA. I even coughed a few times because the back of my throat or tonsils started to feel irritated. This all followed my driving through beautiful Colorado, Utah, and a small part of Nevada. Anyway, those pictures reminded me of that experience.

Originally posted by Bluess


But i thought you just said "The theory that the emission of carbon dioxide by humans significantly warms the planet is far from certain." And yet you claim that it will have a far smaller effect then neaded?


.

I think the point that was being made is that-

A- there isn't scientific consensus that Global Warming is caused by man
B- that even if we adopt these policies, there isn't evidence that it can stop the warming trend(as these happen in nature, without us having a role).

reply to post by kozmo



Gee, it's a pity that blind, selfish, narrow minded opinions like yours weren't inflatable. If they were, then when the time comes you could use them as a buoyancy aid to save yourself and your family from drowning.

The jury isn't still out on whether GW is happening or not.
I'm sure when slavery was still practised in the US there were people who bemoaned it's banishment, and seriously refused to see a reason as to why it should be removed. The jury was still out on that too, some people still are. Does that mean slavery is/was a good thing. Please grow up and take some responsibility for human behaviour. We all own this problem even you.

I understood that electricity comes mainly from Methane Gas generators (US).. I am a mechanical engineer myself but I am honest to say that the alternatives on the market are not "sources" of energy but carriers of energy. For example

Wind turbines - you need fossil fuels to produce the metal they are made with, you need to use refineries to produce the copper used in the generator, you need electronics made with petrol. I am not sure how much petrol is used to produce a wind turbine , but in general you have to count on 10 years of optimal working in order to produce the energy it was used during the manufacturing of the wind -turbine

Solar Panels - at the tech. level of 2000, a solar panel will recover the energy used to be produced if the panel would optimally work for 10 years. However, the life-time of a solar panel is 10 years (optimal power output)

Bio-fuel -produced by farmer using petrol-driven tractors, fossil-fuel based fertilisations etc. A recent study said that if you would replace this bio-fuel with normal petrol you would produce 50% less CO2!

Hydrogen - the mighty Hydrogen is just a carrier of energy. The known meted to produce Hydrogen is electrolysis (conventional method) - it means that you put electricity in the water, they you split H2O into H2 and O2. The bad news about this is that in order to produce one litter of Hydrogen you need 3x times more energy than what you can store in that 1 litter. Then, put that Hydrogen on your car and you loose another 50%..

Electrical Cars - The batteries used to produce an electrical car would have limited life-time. Please note the process involved to produce car-batteries - sometimes it would involve mineral extraction in Canada, shipped to China where it can be transformed into useful metal with no environmental rules then shipped to Europe to manufacture the battery , that is shipped back to US. A study reveals that Toyota Pius for example is producing more pollution (while manufactured) than a HUMMER in 10 years of exploitation..

what else is left to save the planet? Tesla can help, but no one wants us off the grid! I guess that all we will really see is tax and blame ..

Atomic energy - see Cernobal . We only know a part about the invisible radiation , the fact that we do not know about a certain danger is not making this method "safer" than fosil fuels .Also a major natural disaster could bring human race extinct if this would hit the wrong areas
[edit on 14-12-2007 by sty]

[edit on 14-12-2007 by sty]

Oh golly gee, what a blatant US bash and slam.
I'm reading this and all I can think of is are you nuts?

All the lead paint recalls we are seeing right now is only a very small indication of what China is up to, give it a few years and the evidence will be overwhelming.
Do you really think people in China are more environmentally aware and friendly as folks in the US?

Given the number of people in that Country-nent it is only obvious that they will no doubt negatively alter the face and pollute the entire planet like it's never been polluted before. And we haven't even covered the list of endangered species which you can bet will continue to grow as more and more Chinese begin to experience the good life, indulging in such delicacies as shark fin soup. You know, this is where they capture shark, cut the fins off and ditch the finless shark carcass overboard where it then sinks to the bottom of the ocean. This alone is already altering the eco-system.

You probably think all US corporations are extremely greedy, well all I can say is just wait because the Chinese will be even greedier. Don't beleive me? Just ask yourself who the expert counterfeiters are.

From a humanitarian effort standpoint, once China becomes a superpower do you honestly think they will be there providing assistance whenever there is a world catastrophe? Ah-Hail-No

Remember this is the same country that gave us SARS.

From a humanitarian effort standpoint, once China becomes a superpower do you honestly think they will be there providing assistance whenever there is a world catastrophe? Ah-Hail-No

Erm...America doesn't, well, you didn't when it came to your own citizens in New Orleans.

Originally posted by infinite
[Erm...America doesn't, well, you didn't when it came to your own citizens in New Orleans.

New Orleans was a goat-rope, that's for sure. Lots of errors made by a lot of different offices and people.

But the US does come to just about everyone's aid. We flew in supplies to IRAN a few years ago when they had that earthquake.

i think your barking up the wrong tree by accusing the USA of 'destroying our world'.... the USA has a great influence but is not the major culprit.


Chernobel was a Soviet mess that will stain the local environment for many generations

all of the former Soviet eastern europe was & remains several decades
away from retrofitting their polluting factories, polluting electrical generation plants... almost all their infrastructure is in shambles
water pipes & sewage is causing unseen environmental scars.


the industries of Red China are throwing 10s of millions of tons of
soot, particulates, sulphurs into the prevailing winds...
winds which dump their pollution in he manner of 'fallout' on the west coast of the Americas.


the OPEC group continues to pump out oil, to make their profits----
regardless of the immmorality of selling a pollution causing energy resource to the world...
i.e. If the quantity of polluting oil was not available... Everyone would be forced to develop alternative, Green, energy sources,
so in the final analysis OPEC is destroying the world !

reply to post by sty


Firstly, care to back any of that up? It's not the first time you've spouted facts `n` figures without proof.

Secondly, anything, be it a Coal power station, or Nuclear or a wind turbine takes energy to produce.

What is your point?

If it is that it will take x amount of time to "recuperate" the input, well, Nuclear power plants take years to build, tens of thousands of people making millions of parts. How long does it take for a nuclear plant to generate the energy required to make it? Same with a Coal plant

Hydrogen can be extracted without any carbon footprint. There are several methods.

Your not up to speed on Solar technology, obviously.

Bio-fuel, using microbes, can be cheaply and efficiently produced.

Just because some things require a bit of effort, we should not bother?

Bottom line is, you've made a lot of ill-informed assumptions and spouted half-truths and, in some cases, lies.

Definately developed countries like US and Russia poluted the planet like no other... they have thousands of active nuclear weapons... and have tested thousands in the environment.

and when we want to stop pollution they should take lead and which is not happenning... sad

i have bought a farm in a area that has been in drought for twelve years now .. I keep getting the stupid fundamental same old bull# ,, oh it'll break.. truly when it doesnt they say that its just a bad year .. i mean ffs a bad year is five years in a row.. when it hits ten and dumb arsed farmers are hoping that maybe next year might be better.. well Im sorry stupidity is rife within the farming community...and they dont say we wont take goverment subsidy's but if your unemployed they run you down and say your a bum.. well heres a idea for australian farmers .. stop your fat arsed bitching about your neighbours and actually work for a living..

Ehhrmm, pardon me but, why it seems that of all the things that the US had done for the world, good ones & bad ones, (nobody's perfect) the good ones are hardly remembered. The bad ones? people would definitely remember and would love to talk about it.

I could have started a thread something like; US: Thanks for helping to save the World during World War 2! (Including Europe)


Just in fairness, try to ravel to some more countries, you'll see which one has more pollution.
IMHO.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by searching_for_truth]

reply to post by scientist


Europe europe europe is just as guilty as anybody if not more, I am sick of the would be arrogance of europe. The IPA in London is one of those Oil pushers you talk about and second leading marketer of Oil in the world, also distributing to China by which the enviroextremists dont say anything, because guess what they are not America. Stop finger pointing and solve the problems that exist in your own governments.

Originally posted by Astyanax
If anything bids fair to drive the rest of us to hate Americans (which I, for one, do not...yet), it is this issue and the selfish, I'm-all-right-jack attitude so many Americans take to it. It is simply nauseating.

there is medication for that.

Please do not make the rest of world more disgusted with America than they already are. All the nukes in the world won't save you if the rest of the us really get mad.

oh please...get a grip man.

I get quite sick of all the "unintelligent" American bashing that goes on in this global warming debate.

first point.
America does not want to sign an agreement because yes....it will effect our economy the most. selfish you say? no, it is self preservation. why in the world would we want to shoot our selves in the foot. its just bad sense. we are willing to do our part outside of a non-binding agreement. we do everyday. there are lots of solutions being discussed in our universities, and our corporations. why? because we realize we need to change. the reason we choose this route, is so we set our our course for change. there is nothing wrong with looking out for and promoting ones own interest over the whole. how selfish you say again? again, it is just self preservation. our elected leaders have a duty to uphold the rights and interest of the people of the United State of America. not the world. this is how it has worked from the beginning of the US. its not new.

second point.
American people do choose, on their own, to be better stewarts of the enviroment. foreign manufactures of cars sales have passed up the domestic gas giant car manufactures a long time ago. homes, which had a large boom in the past 6 years, are being built much more energy efficient than older homes. there are many incentives in place to buy more energy efficient vehicles. and I work in the petrol-chemical industries, and I can tell you, emissions are taken very seriously with respect to new plants being built.
but, I will admit, it is the old stuff that is the problem. and while we are among the richest of the developed countries, our poor and middle class can only afford the older homes and vehicles on the market. and to legislate a tax, or mandatory update upon them will destroy the consuming economy, which is what our economy is built on. and if our economy is destroyed, how do expect people to make the more expensive choices for change?

third point.
Kyoto is a joke. it is a "cap and trade" system. what do you think will happen when one of the richest nations will be forced into this system. we will buy credits. which doesn't reduce c02 at all. its kind of like buying penance form the church, it doesn't work. then everybody will still cry America is not doing their part. that they are cheating the system and what not.

fourth point.
you say you cant point fingers. its everbodies responsibility to contribute. yet, the finger is being squarely pointed at the US. doesn't make sense.
so we are alone on the stage of global warming. that's ok. I see nothing wrong with lobbying to create a system that works well for everybody, not just the majority.

now I know all of you more intelligent people will tell me how wrong I am. fine by me. I can accept that I may be totally and completely wrong on all of the above. but you, will still be mired in your hatred for America. have fun with your nausea.

reply to post by darkbluesky


Good on you because that is exactly how I am feeling about it. I def know I can be one, but there is something about a lot of the current topics that are just driving me to be upset. People are not discussing topics in a way to solve problems or talk about how stupid our politicians can be, we are just all blaming each other and that is what is sad.

How far do you think heavy toxis - like - from cars? fly away in the wind?

no idea..

200 kilometers?

2000 kilometers?

10 kilometers?

-?-
(i dunno)

reply to post by JSR


Hey, I think this was an extremely intelligent faire. The only thing you did not really mention here is the fact that everytime there is a discussion on something, these would be threateners always bring up nuclear weapons, for some reason I do not think anyone has an idea about what the theory and practice of deterrence is.

Originally posted by Ram
How far do you think heavy toxis - like - from cars? fly away in the wind?

Quite far actually. Just to add a little balance to the discussion:

Foreign ozone emissions lower U.S. air quality

Now, don't take this news as vindication or something to pin the blame on others. True, some of the pollution experienced in the US comes from foreign sources. However the whole point of me posting this is to illustrate how pollution from a country across the ocean can affect your locality.

Reverse the roles in the news snippet above and you'll be closer to understanding why this is a global issue and why people from other country might get upset over the US' reluctance to reduce it's emissions and other pollutants.

Lets see if i can condense the past 5 pages for those who might not want to submit their brain and eyes to such a painful experience.

1 - Nobody has conclusive, solid and unshakable proof of either the existence or the non-existence of human influenced global warming, however both sides claim they are absolutely correct and that debate is in fact over on the subject.

2 - There is also no consensus on who puts out more pollution, China, India and the US are all top polluters no doubt but nobody actually seems to know what order they fall in.

3 - Every American seems to be responsible for global warming and are completely aware of it, all the science behind it (or lack thereof) and simply takes great joy in making the rest of the world miserable. The rest of the world however cannot act without the US on board for some reason, they are waiting around for the US to get on with the program instead of pushing on anyway.

If the discussion in this thread has shown me anything its that we are still miles away from any kind of sanity when it comes to climate change ( or even discussion, the slings here should have had warnings but for whatever reason the staff seem to have ignored it ) People assume that citizens of a country are a good representative of what the rest of the country is like; judging by this thread the entire farking world is made up of children who argue all day and never get anything done. So lets stop our arguing and jump forward with half-cocked ideas and incomplete theories, sounds like a wonderful plan!