100% Flawless Proof of God

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by N.B.A.Y.S.O.H
If "Aliens" are Proved to exsist.....does that make god obsolete?

Why would that be the case? I have heard people insinuate that if aliens existed, God could be ruled out... How so?

It would make me believe in God even more, lol.

i'd be like OH MY GOD!! LOOK AT THAT!

and then id be praying yo :X

Runetang, you and me both, bud...You and me both.

The Bible is anything but cohesive. It's a muddle of thou's and thy's of confused people who lack compassion and stone others for their slights. Cutesy bowling thunder metaphors don't prove anything about the existence of God except a lack of depth. It never matters what you believe only what you discover through actual experience. There are spiritual dimensions of light beings that have been actually experienced by saints, yogis , even some alien encounters have ET's that are beings of light. But one supreme being that has to rest on Sunday? Heck your human and you don't even need to rest on Sunday. How supreme can the guy be if he could only work for 6 days then have to take a day off. I can't believe that so many people just are so limited by their conditioning and become puppets repeating programming to keep them from being dynamic creative, compassionate and enlightened themselves.

Originally posted by AshleyD
trying to figure out the age of the earth is kind of unrelated to prophecy and has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. The age of the earth is not going to take away from the specificity of a prophecy.

I would disagree. Since the prophecies are all within the bible, then the bible is the only thing to put the dates and events into context. If that context is undefinable, then so are the prophecies. Again, this would be the Nostradamus effect.

Originally posted by AshleyD
It really makes sense if you think about how Christianity really was the EXACT OPPOSITE of all the things a religion should have been in the ancient world and how it faced both external and internal persecution from its onset until today.

Just because it was the underdog for a while, does not add any more credibility for me. They will be saying this about Islam 500-1000 years from now as well, as that takes over.

Originally posted by AshleyD
it talks about how not only will the moral decay be prominent, it will also be accepted as normal.

So witch hunts, inquisition and crucifixitions weren't considered normal? It just scares me to think there are millions and millions of people walking around, thinking that the entire world is spiraling downward towards moral decay, and we are in the last days. Some people call me cynical, but that's beyond even me. So far I am unsatisfied with any type of evidence that moral decay is any worse now, than 10 years ago, 50, 100, 200, 400, etc. Are we talking on a global scale? National? Cultural? How do you take a morality census in the first place?

So far it all seems extremely subjective and opinionated, seen through one person's eyes only. In addition, I find such a view of waiting for the last days as incompatible to Christ's message. Perhaps someone could explain how Christ's message and looking at the world as a living hell go together.

Originally posted by AshleyD
You have to remember Daniel made this prophecy roughly 2,500 years ago when men were still rubbing sticks together to make fire, so to speak.

I'm not familiar with the book of daniel as much, so I tried wiki, and this is what it says:

en.wikipedia.org...

The dating and authorship of Daniel has been a matter of great debate among Jews and Christians. The traditional view holds that the work was written by a prophet named Daniel who lived during the sixth century BC, whereas most modern Biblical scholars maintain that the book was written or redacted in the mid-second century BC and that most of the predictions of the book refer to events that had already occurred. A third viewpoint places the final editorial work in the fourth century BC.

Clearly, this is not something universally accepted, and seems to reflect exactly what I was saying before, that it's much easier to write about something after it happened and claim it was a prophecy.

Aside from that already being debated by others more informed than myself, I still have no idea as to how that's relevant. If you predict that in 10, 50, 1000, 2500, etc. years that people will have travelled more places and gained more knowledge... how is that prophecy? Either A) it happens, or B) everyone dies before the prophecy comes true (since there is no expiration date, so to speak).

I'm not trying to turn into some type of over-analytical skeptic. I am not an atheist, and i wouldn't even consider myself agnostic... but I still struggle seeing from a perspective such as yours. I was raised catholic, first communion, alter boy, the whole 9 yards. After I read my first Joseph Campbell book, and got into ancient mythology, I was convinced that the bible was plagiarism at best, population control at worst.

Originally posted by joben

are you sure?

Yes I am sure. The word "prophet" actually originates with the Greeks meaning "someone who speaks on behalf of someone else". The poets in those days wrote poems in the third person.

cool, thanks for the info.

It's obvious that the original poster wasn't trying to be serious, this topic exploded into something, he was being sarcastic, problem solved. If you want to argue the authenticity of the bible, start a new post, title it the authenticity of the bible, and give proof, or dis-proof, let this post go.

yessir.

Since the best way to keep an engaging conversation going, is to close the current topic and hope a brand new thread gains momentum?

Prophets this, prophets that. Just replace the word prophet with poet and all will become clear.

Arguing over proof of god is pointless both sides have their individual beliefs and will not be swayed by the arguments of another. The majority of the time the only winner is the one that has the better debating skills. For those of you out there that do not believe in God I only ask that you open your mind to the possibility of god with as much enthusiasm as you do in debating his non existence. For in order to be truely wise you must be able to grasp both sides of an argument. I also propose that if you do indeed take my advice and seek what you are trying to disprove you may actually find him. I'm not asking you to convert from your views but merely study the possibility that there is a God. There have been many other people with intelligence as we have on this forum that have done precisely that and have found their God. There have also been many intelligent people that have gone out to prove God does not exist but in the end found out that he does. Open your hearts and your minds a bit he is all around us. The proof is there but it is not in the arguments of this thread you can not simply discount that there is no God based on the knowledge of man, Biblical contradictions, Dinosaurs, Carbon Dating, Threats of going to hell, or thoughts of why would God allow this to happen.

I also read part of a thread that mentioned God Telling Israel to kill all women and children. You can not understand this until you understand the promises God made to the nation of israel and the conext in which God made that statment. If you follow the story you will see that Israel directly disobeyed God and did not kill all the women and children. As a result God made a promise that because of their disobediance those people would be a thorn unto the side of Israel until the end times. And that promise has been one that God has kept and continues to be evident unto this day.

I'm personally getting tired of the misleading titles on some threads. I mean, the OP promises "100% flawless proof of God". They back this up with not even a single shred of evidence, then drop out of the thread entirely. I spend my time reading through the next 6 pages of replies searching for some scrap of fulfillment of the OP's promise only to come to the realization that no revelation is forthcoming. The OP has wasted my time with a bunk thread...again. Can the mods not do something about this? Puh-leeeeeeze? It is this kind of conduct that waters down the meaty stew that is ATS.

reply to post by scientist


The age of the earth in relation to prophecy

Let's put it this way:

The Bible says Israel will again become a nation in one day during the end times and the temple will be rebuilt. How does the age of the earth affect this prophecy? I don't understand what direct cause and effect relationship the age of the earth would have on something occurring or not.

On the other hand, let's say the Bible specifically says 6000 years after the earth's creation the above prophecy will happen. Well, if that time comes and goes and I try to finagle the Scriptures around and say, "Well according to the genealogies, we messed up and the age of the earth is different than we thought it was," then it there would be reason to gripe.

With the exception of Job, the books of the Bible were written between roughly 1,400 B.C. and 100 A.D. So, this is when the prophecies were written. If we know when the prophecies were written and see their fulfillment and the signs of their coming fulfillment, explain it to me like I'm a two year old why the timing of creation changes this.

The survival of Christianity

I can see your point and if this was the only prophecy the Bible mentions, I'd admit I'd have my hands tied. But, reading the above provided article makes me see just how amazing the spread of Christianity truly was. And then taking it into consideration with the other prophecies, their context, and timing, I have to say it is impressive to me.

The detestable acts of the Inquisition, Witch Trials, etc.

Review some of the things you mentioned and the time periods where they occurred. People did speak out against such things- quite vocally I might add- but what happened? They were in turned crucified, beheaded, burnt at the stake, etc. People were outraged and lived in fear and there were revolts in mass- which almost undoubtedly resulted in the protesters sharing in the very fate they were resisting.

Things like the Salem witch trial was not approved of world wide. If you look into the history of it, Salem was a backwoods town at the time. Once larger cities got wind of the atrocities, the bigger government stepped in and put a halt to it.

There were massive revolts due to each of the things you mentioned but today we are mostly holding back. Why? We don't hold back out of fear. We hold back out of laziness and complacency. If it doesn't affect us directly, why bother? We're comfortable.

But again, no one can deny that the world has spiraled into decay since the onset of WWI. While some truly rotten things have happened throughout history, it is now in our own backyard, coming into our homes via the media, etc. And this isn't even considering what is going on in other countries that consider America prudish.

The Dating of Daniel

Like you said, the dating of Daniel has been a subject of IMMENSE debate. Let me send you to a link to some pretty convincing evidence for an early date of Daniel. (HERE).

Also, even with a 2nd century date of authorship (which I don't accept due to the mound of evidence to the contrary), he still got several prophecies right that occurred after the fact. With the exception of the Torah, no other book's dating is as hotly disputed as Daniel because the only way to rationalize his prophetic accuracy is to claim it was written after the fact (even though early ancient manuscripts attest to Daniel already being in existence way before then!).

I'm not trying to turn into some type of over-analytical skeptic.

Hey! You should be! I'm the exact same way. I'll analyze something to death before making a final decision. No one respects someone who shifts their belief with the wind and never asks questions. So kudos to you!

Originally posted by subliminaut
Can the mods not do something about this? Puh-leeeeeeze? It is this kind of conduct that waters down the meaty stew that is ATS.

I wouldn't mind if this thread was split into a new one. Can you do this, Mods? Not sure how this board works. Scientist and I kind of hijacked this thread and took over but we're having fun and keeping it civil!

It's obvious that the original poster wasn't trying to be serious

I think the OP was being serious (might not have provided a good argument, but was serious nonetheless). They just apparently didn't understand the rule that this forum is for conspiracies only like a previous poster pointed out.

[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by scientist

 

The detestable acts of the Inquisition, Witch Trials, etc.
...
Things like the Salem witch trial was not approved of world wide. If you look into the history of it, Salem was a backwoods town at the time. Once larger cities got wind of the atrocities, the bigger government stepped in and put a halt to it.

instead of picking everything apart like i mentioned before, I'll just continue with this. Right away, I'd like to clarify, and say that witchhunt is not limited to the salem witch trials. I am well aware how that story has been blown out of proportion and etc.

The first thing I would like to bring up, is the works assembled by King James himself, Demonology. This is the same person who is attributed to "writing" the most widely accepted bible to date. His other, lesser known book, Demonology, was about something that's not so commonly accepted today, but it was during it's time (a time with greater morals, as you argue?):

www.amazon.com...=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197606537&sr=8-1

He was responsible for the widely accepted King James Bible, based in part on the beliefs set forth in this book. Written directly by his own hand, it is shown that he believed himself to be an instrument of God. He believed in Satan and that his mission was to seek out and kill "witches" (the Devil's ministers). He was convinced that they had tried to cast spells and kill him on numerous occasions. This book provides the reader with an interesting psychological profile of this man -- revealing his mindset and the tactics used to hold sway over his people.

From the Publisher
This text, from 1597, appears in the original old English so that its complete accuracy is preserved. An important historical book that reveals the effects of superstition (toward "witches") on an entire religion

I hope this is a better clarification to my question about morality over the ages. Also, what is the litmus test?

Originally posted by AshleyD
no one can deny that the world has spiraled into decay since the onset of WWI.

How so? You are stating an opinion, and quite a naive one at that. Not in a condescending way, but in the dictionary term way - in that you are making assumptions about the moral atmosphere of over 2500 years that you were never part of. Again I ask, what is the litmus test?

Originally posted by AshleyD
While some truly rotten things have happened throughout history, it is now in our own backyard, coming into our homes via the media, etc. And this isn't even considering what is going on in other countries that consider America prudish.

I am getting the feeling your litmus test has something to do with seeing this in "your own backyard." If you are still speaking about biblical context, i don't think america had anything to do with it. actually, if you look at the area concerning most of the bible, that moral decay is is on somewhat of an unmeasurable scale. There is no litmus.

it seems your entire reasoning for this mindset, is directly related to the fact that you are currently perceiving the world as turning evil - so it spirals into a self fulfilling prophecy of your own. You seek, and you find. I'll restate another question - how is this world view compatible with christ's message? perhaps I have misunderstood, or not taken note of a few passages.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by subliminaut
Can the mods not do something about this? Puh-leeeeeeze? It is this kind of conduct that waters down the meaty stew that is ATS.

Scientist and I kind of hijacked this thread and took over

I beg to differ! The topic of this post is proof of god. If someone can prove that that a biblical prophecy (or many, according to AD) has occurred and been documented to satisfaction - i would consider that the closest you will get to evidence of a god, or at the very least, time travel

Who cares if the OP was being sarcastic. If that's the case, we both deserve stars for taking a watered down thread and turning it into a stew (thanks for the horrible, uncreative analogy sub )

I think the TC is merely trolling.

The ''Whos bowling when it thunders'' gives it away because thats just a stupid statement.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by N.B.A.Y.S.O.H
If "Aliens" are Proved to exsist.....does that make god obsolete?

Why would that be the case? I have heard people insinuate that if aliens existed, God could be ruled out... How so?

Because i dont think the Pope belives in ET or Evoultion. So its my thinking that if ET does exist the Pope and his god become none and void?

IF ET came to earth and said "Your all evolved from apes" doesnt that outlaw "god" ? or is someone going to be clever and say "Ah but god created apes" so therefore created us ....hmm

reply to post by reject


quote:scientist think we are hardwired to seek for G-D.yes they/you are right.a correct translation of ecclesiastes 3:11 confirms what you say:He has made everything beautiful in its time.also,He has set eternity in their heart,without which man cannot find out the work that G-D makes from the beginning and to the end.--------this is from the interlinear bible/jay p.green,sr general editor and translator.the bible as inspired by G-D (in its origional language is correct) but not all the translators have done a very good job of accurately making sense of giving us the meaning intended by the hebrew language -many words of which can give a false idea if taken out of the context of the rest of the words in the verse they are connected with---------------we have an inspired origional text but mostly an uninspired hebrew to english translation.

If God did exist, it would be silly to follow him, as he's a genocidal petty maniac who seems to love tormenting good people and rewarding assholes.

The Bible contradicts itself again and again, and has been repeatedly edited throughout the course of its existence. If it's the word of God, why does it need editing? Is God getting forgetful?

The whole thing is a terrible joke, which, as Richard Dawkins says, makes good people do bad things. The sooner we get rid of religion in general, the better.

reply to post by AshleyD


Trouble with all those, is that some - like the spread of a religion - are "freaking duh" things, while others, such as the return of Israel, are hand-crafted by people who wanted to prove the bible right.

Decline in morality? 50 years ago? Well the people 50 years ago were "immoral" to their grandparents. Imagine how their grandparents must have looked to the people two hundred years prior. And really, how do you think the European monarchs would have looked to the ancient Hebrews? And the Hebrews themselves were no doubt vile, repugnant freaks by the standards of the anatolian hunter-gatherers.

Does G-D Exist?--rocket scientist dr. wernher von braun/physicist stephen hawking/albert einstein/physicist .paul davis/and old nobody me believe G-D Exists. A. laws that are always there and never change-laws of :heat/light/energy/motion/rotation of astral bodies/gravity/isostasy/magnetism. B.biogenisis life comes only from pre-existing life (you could stack up a million dead bodies in the morgue yet no human can bring them back to life again)--------and it should be alot easier to do that than start off with (gases and soups of chemicals that came from where?) that have to somehow think themselves into evolving after they are hit by a bolt of lightning(that came from where?) C.the disintegration of matter-uranium u238 gradually disintegrates through many intermeadiate stages into lead pb206-------what this proves is that this earth is gradually running down therefore there was a definite beginning somewhere in the past------- D. design-life as we know it is entirely interdependent upon other forms of life----nothing lives or dies to itself----(the bees disappearing?------without them we die eventually).the cleavage properties of minerals/the wings of a bird/or a fly/the facets of a quartz crystal/intricate design requires a Master Designer E.bible prophecy --1/3 of the bible is prophecy,much of which is waiting to be fulfilled in our time nowaniel was given revelation of 4 great empires which did occur down through history---babylon/persia/greece/ and rome.bible prophecy predicts one final resurrection of the roman empire in our day.germany will figure very promintly in this united states of europe--------------fulfilled prophecy is a major proof that G-D Exists F.answered prayer/miraculous healing /and angelic protection-the testimony of some people being saved from an inevitable accident they can see coming but can do nothing about themselves.romans 1:20 says-since the creation of the world G-Ds invisible qualities-His Etrnal power and Divine nature have been clearly seen,being understood from What Has Been Made,so that men are without excuse.