100% Flawless Proof of God

reply to post by scientist

but weren't the gospels (everything about jesus) written after his supposed death? (which still hasn't been proven either)?

Of course they were. Why? Did you expect them to be written before His death? That would have left out the best part of the story.

I mean, this is the same book that says the earth is only 10,000 years old, right?

There are so many theories on this and I will admit I'm not the one qualified to answer because geology is not my area of expertise. There is so much debate on whether or not the genealogies in Genesis are opened or closed (being that the Hebrew word for begat could refer to either an immediate or long term descendant), whether or not there was a time gap between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, whether or not the days of creation were 24 hour literal periods, and a few others. I'm sure someone will know better than me. I personally don't believe the earth is only 6,000 years old (the most conservative estimate) or billions of years old (almost impossible for me to believe according to physics and the law of thermodynamics).

since there are so many ("too numerous to name") why not list just a few, like 3 of the best examples you can find.

Sure, no problem- this is my favorite topic to talk about. I will answer this in my next reply right after I submit this one.

ok, but that's the torah, not the bible. so what? That seems to take away from your point... if there was one?

This is a very good point that this specific ELS is only contained in the Torah and something I have thought of. There are other codes that believers in the Bible codes swear by but I'm saying this specific code series is the only one I find interesting and defies probability while I think the other ones can be explained by probability due to the leeway of the Hebrew language. Will other equally convincing codes be found in the future? I don't know. But for right now my skepticism prevents me from believing in the Bible Codes and Theomatics completely. There's simply too much wiggle room in my opinion.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by scientist

 

but weren't the gospels (everything about jesus) written after his supposed death? (which still hasn't been proven either)?

Of course they were. Why? Did you expect them to be written before His death? That would have left out the best part of the story.

my point being, anything written after an event takes place cannot be considered prophecy. Just like it's not a prophecy to warn people about 9/11 a year after it happened.

p.s. interesting points thus far. I'm interested to see your examples.

By the way, at the time the books of the bible were written, the word "prophet" meant a poet and a musician. This explains how some of the books are like poetry as that is what they are. The meaning of the word was changed to suit the motives of the religious leaders of the time.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by joben]

Originally posted by joben
By the way, at the time the books of the bible were written, the word "prophet" meant a poet and a musician. This explains how some of the books are like poetry as that is what they are. The meaning of the word was changed to suit the motives of the religious leaders of the time.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by joben]

are you sure?

www.etymonline.com...

prophet Look up prophet at Dictionary.com
c.1175, from O.Fr. prophete (11c.), from L. propheta, from Gk. prophetes (Doric prophatas) "an interpreter, spokesman," especially of the gods, from pro- "before" + root of phanai "to speak," from PIE *bha- "speak"

reply to post by scientist

since there are so many ("too numerous to name") why not list just a few, like 3 of the best examples you can find.

Here are some of my favorites. Remember, the one third of the Bible pertains to prophecy so I'm only going to mention a few of those that have been fulfilled in our time that we can testify to. Again, books upon books have been written on this subject so this is just a sample:

The Return of Israel
Several prophets give specifics as to the rebirth of Israel in the end times but Ezekiel and Isaiah are the ones who mention this rebirth with the most precision and depth.
1) Israel would become a nation in one day (This happened May 14th 1948).
2) Israel would be gathered a little at a time from all nations (The regathering started in 1897 and is still going on today).
3) Israel would immediately be surrounding by hostile enemies (The surrounding Arab countries immediately started rising up against the new nation of Israel and is something we can still see daily on the nightly news)
4) Many believe Ezekiel was even able to provide information that gives the rebirth of Israel to the year in 1948 by the use of Biblical years (given in the link in my previous comment).

The Existence and Spread of Christianity
Superficially this is not very significant until we place ourselves in the first century Near East. Dozens of new cults and religions popped up every year and ended with the death of their leader. However Jesus spoke with authority when he said:
1) Christianity would never fizzle out (2,000 years later we're still here even after centuries of immense persecution beginning with the first century).
2) Christ's teaching would still be around (We still have the Bible and His sermons)
3) The Gospel would be preached world wide. Pretty interesting considering half the world hadn't even been discovered in Jesus' time. Regardless, Christianity is being taught everywhere- even in countries where it is illegal.

Massive Moral Breakdown
Peter predicted a severe moral breakdown in the last days. I'm hoping this one needs to explanation. Watching 30 minutes of network television compared to what was allowed 50 years ago is shocking. Sadly, its only going to get worse but it is undeniable we have declined morally at an exponential rate since WWI (a specific war Jesus alludes to in his Olivet Discourse).

Knowledge and Travel

Daniel foresaw an increase in travel and a knowledge explosion. Indeed with the internet, anything we want to learn about is just a few clicks away. But that isn't the whole of it. We are living in what many have called "The information age." And traveling needs no explanation. With trains, planes, automobiles, and space programs people are traveling more than ever.

The Formation of A One World Government Comprised of Unions

This contains many different prophecies:
1) The revived roman empire (The European union)
2) The rebirth of Babylon (efforts to rebuild the city and its ruins was started by Saddam and will be continued in the future)
3) Confederations. We have the European Union, South American Union, African Union, and there are talks of a North American Union, revamps of the Arab Union and Eastern Union. I don't know how this will all pan out but eventually these entities will merge to be unions of a united government.
4) Economics. This is something still yet future so I'm not going to place emphasis on this but all the signs are pointing to a united currency

[continued]

reply to post by StandFirm

you've always believed in G-D ? i dont know why you came to this idea whether by your own thought processes or by being taught by your parents or by a Divine call and inspiration?-------------my own personal experience has been that i was the son of 2 parents whose god was money and getting ahead-----------neither of them had time for G-D or me----------both worked and i stayed home alone------------wondering why i was alive------------all i knew was that i hated this society and set about at age 6/7 to vandalize and destroy everything i took a notion to----------------thanks to being beaten first day of school 5/6 years old---------age 14 got caught after destroying a building because a "friend" got caught doing something else by himself and stabbed me in the back------------anyway when i saw how much it devastated my parents i quit destroying and tried to control myself----------at age 20 someone-----dont remember who ----gave me a bible and i started to read it--------then i realized that some of the experiences in my life where i was saved miraculously from being crushed/murdered or burnt up in my criminal activities were because G-D had to be looking out for me------------so i changed completly and started an ernest search for Someone that cared that much about me---------i still try to do whats right even if imperfectly at times-----and i thank G-D everyday for Their mercy.

reply to post by scientist

my point being, anything written after an event takes place cannot be considered prophecy. Just like it's not a prophecy to warn people about 9/11 a year after it happened.

You left this while I was leaving my last reply so I will answer this before I continue with prophecy we can see. I wholeheartedly agree with you that those who write of prophecy after the fact can't be considered prophets. Like the example you gave, those that claimed to foresee 9/11 but didn't make their claims public until after the fact.

The main things fulfilled within Jesus' time or shortly thereafter were His death and resurrection (and of course the Gospels were only written after such events) and the destruction of the Jewish temple and the dispersion of the Jews. While some critics claim the Gospels were written after the invasion of 70 A.D., I have to say internal evidence points to at least Mark being written prior to that date (and most critics as well as Christians believe Mark was written first). However, we know undoubtedly the Jews did not abandon Judea for good until the 2nd century, when most (critics and Christians) believe the NT was completed.

However, many of the prophecies in the NT are not supposed to be fulfilled until the end of this age.

Now back to the continuation.

Massive Shifts in Relgioius Beliefs

I'm getting lazy so I'll just copy and paste this part from sections of my website:

The Bible says there will be a great spiritual falling away in the end times. Religion has always been one of the centers of every society. I personally cannot think of a single civilization in history that did not have some sort of belief in a deity or deities. Past civilizations not only
had a religion but they revolved their every day life around their religious beliefs.

With the "God is dead" movement, the increase in secularism, the age of reason, and the skeptic wave, mankind is experiencing a paradigm shift concerning religion. Jesus also warns there will be a great falling away (apostasy) in the Christian church as well. This is evident with the modern church's compromise with the world in the name of tolerance and the distortion of Biblical truth in order to appease those which "itching ears" (basically, hearing sermons that appease to them or for popularity's sake instead of the original lessons that aren't always what we want to hear).

Racial Tension and Hatred

Although racial tension has always reared its ugly head, the rebirth of Israel took place in one of the most racially volatile periods of history and the conflict is only getting worse.

Ok, I'm going to stop there because I am exhausted but those alone would not even fill the introduction of the book I recommend in one of my previous comments. They get a lot more specific than I get.

There will be other things that will become clearer in the future (The rise of a one-world leader, one world religion, one world banking system, the rebuilt Jewish temple- that already has most of the required pieces ready to go as soon as a building location becomes available, and so many other things.

I'm sorry to be so brief but someone asking me to explain why I believe what I do would be like someone asking me to summarize a set of encyclopedias in a few paragraphs. Christian apologists have literally written enough books to fill a small library.

I wish I could be one of those people who could just take it on faith but I couldn't help being a skeptic who had to know why.

Originally posted by AshleyD
You know, I never understood the accusation that the Bible is only a means to enslave man by the fear of Hell.

Why not? To tell a person that they are goinbg to burn for ETERNITY if they don't do as you tell them to can be quite manipulative... The church used to base alll of the sermons on the threat of "hell-fire." It is only recently that they have not emphasized the threat of "hell-fire" so much...



[edit on 13-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Jesus comes back every morning.. Jesus is the sun, and his return comes every morning.. If I give faith to anything it would be the sun moon and the stars. These are things I can see with my own eyes..
These are things that are really there!

I give my faith to the trees, and the ground where life grows.. I dont put my faith in some dude that was suppose to have lived many years ago..

I am a druid, and I belive that God, is part of everything.. NOt just some beardy man in the clouds asking mortals to kill in its name..

SpeakerofTruth is right about manipulation being the key point here.. And many mortal men claim they have direct contact to this bearded man in the clouds..

I say we all have our roles to play.. But to claim one God over another God is purely Ego..

To understand God, and all of this you must first shed you're Ego...

Some have found any easy method of getting rid of ones Ego..
But I have been working the hard way to this.. Its not something that can happen over night.. And the mortal Ego is to blame for all of this maddness..

Drop the Ego and see what you feel then...

And then take a good long look into this mans eyes...


I wonder why when I look at this man, he seems extreamly evil to me...
Hmmm maybe its just me.. However some souls on this earth can look at a persons eyes, and see how their soul reflects upon this plane in which we dwell...


[edit on 13-12-2007 by zysin5]

reply to post by timb3r


Ok, I see what you mean. Personally I have seen and heard of hundreds of claims but being that I am skeptical of faith healers and the "love Jesus and get rich" sermons, it leaves a lot to be desired for me personally.

You hear of things like Virgin Mary apparitions (barf!), divine mass healings, events like the miracle of Fatima, the bodies of saints not composing (they use embalming methods and the church admits to this!)etc., and it leaves me wanting.

Not that such things couldn't happen but I have only seen a handlful of such events with my own eyes and agree 100% that it is impossible to prove.



[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

That's fine Ashley, don't bother to respond... I'm used to being ignored by those who have no answer to what I have to say..

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

Why not? To tell a person that they are goinbg to burn for ETERNITY if they don't do as you tell them to can be quite manipulative...

It most certainly can be manipulative and it boggles my mind how many preachers concentrate more on Hell and judgment than Heaven and forgiveness. I guess because I do love God with all my heart and have no fear of going to Hell that I don't pay too much personal attention to Hell but I do believe it is a reality.

I strongly disapprove of "scaring people into Heaven" because to me His love is infinitely more awesome than a place of judgment and separation. Really, what it all comes down to is we've been warned. We can either accept eternity, love, and peace, or reject Him in spite of the evidence (not proof) that exists and be separated from Him.

Don't listen to the Catholic dogma that aborted babies, children who die before the age of accountability, the mentally handicapped, and people like the American Indians who never heard of God will all go to Hell. I truly believe Hell is a place for those who KNEW and HEARD but said, "No Thanks!" In essence, God gives them what they want- to be separated from His presence.

I know this isn't a popular message but after weighing the evidence for myself and coming to a conclusion to believe, I would be an evil maniac to say "I'm saved so screw you all!" and never talk about it to those who have questions.

[edit on 12/13/2007 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
That's fine Ashley, don't bother to respond... I'm used to being ignored by those who have no answer to what I have to say..

You spoke too soon! I was responding to you while you typed this.

Originally posted by AshleyD
. I guess because I do love God with all my heart and have no fear of going to Hell that I don't pay too much personal attention to Hell but I do believe it is a reality.

Well, even though I personally think it is something that has been inserted as a method of control, I have always said that even if there is a hell, we don't really know what it is.. So, ...

]

[edit on 13-12-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

If "Aliens" are Proved to exsist.....does that make god obsolete?

I mean, if ET came home and say yo mc pope ...sup...would the pope # his pants and die?.......cos im sure evoultion and god dont co in habbit?.....

hit me back id like to chat

'GOD' simply "is." And if aliens came wouldn't that be more proof of God... afterall, someone had to have created them.

reply to post by Icon_xof
Second LAW of Thermodynamics; Everything (EVERYTHING) goes from an ordered state, to a disordered state. So how did everything become ordered at all? Evolution claims a humongous list of 'exceptions' to the 'law', and it of course violates the LAW of Relativity. Explain your other explanation of everything.
ps; an interesting new theory is called the Theory of Everything, which finally explains gravity, among other things.

reply to post by YAHWEH333


is that hope "we" cling to?......im all for god ..edge your bets ...but "he" kinda sucks .....

Originally posted by AshleyD
The Return of Israel
Several prophets give specifics as to the rebirth of Israel in the end times but Ezekiel and Isaiah are the ones who mention this rebirth with the most precision and depth.

first of all, since you already admitted you don't accept that the earth was less than 10,000 years old, it's a bit unfair to now cite another date, and accept it on a case-by-case basis. Either the bible is an accurate source of information, or it's not. If you get to pick and choose, this becomes part of the Nostradamus effect. Plus, isn't it just as reasonable (if not, more) that it happened the other way around? Israel was formed because it was written? That seems just as possible, even moreso.

Originally posted by AshleyD
The Existence and Spread of Christianity
1) Christianity would never fizzle out (2,000 years later we're still here even after centuries of immense persecution beginning with the first century).
2) Christ's teaching would still be around (We still have the Bible and His sermons)
3) The Gospel would be preached world wide. Pretty interesting considering half the world hadn't even been discovered in Jesus' time. Regardless, Christianity is being taught everywhere- even in countries where it is illegal.

well, this one is a bit of trickery. To be fair, christianity played a HUGE part in "fizzling out" other religions and cultures, by replacing them with modified versions of itself. So to say Christianity would exist, well - that's not much of a prophecy. That's like saying "This sentence exists." As for spreading, as aforementioned - that was something planned, fought for and maintained, not some type of divine intervention. I don't even consider this close to being prophetic. Unsure why this would be a prime example, but thank you nonetheless.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Massive Moral Breakdown
Watching 30 minutes of network television compared to what was allowed 50 years ago is shocking.

oh ya? What about civil rights? Those weren't around 50 years ago. This is playing off the "good ol days" mentality. That's such a myopic view. Good ol days for who? Certainly not minorities. Network television 50 years ago was more controlled, and even faker than today. Do you really think the entire world was like Leave it to Beaver 50 years ago? This massive moral breakdown is a joke. Every single generation complains about the new generation - how they are out of control, out of morals, etc. Truth is, we have collectively gotten more civilized. Think around the time of Christianity! They were crucifying people, literally. Look at the inquisition... the witch hunts, etc. Were these times of greater moral value?

Originally posted by AshleyD
Knowledge and Travel

Daniel foresaw an increase in travel and a knowledge explosion.

So if I predict right now, that there will be an even greater expansion in knowledge and travel, would I be wrong? How could anyone be wrong, except in the case of an apocalypse - in which case, nobody would be around to read my prophecy anyways. This is another poor example, unless you can expand upon it.

Originally posted by AshleyD
The Formation of A One World Government Comprised of Unions

This contains many different prophecies...

classic nostradamus effect. p.s. how can anything form without union? It's basically a synonym. I would equate this to saying "There will be a great formation of water, comprised of smaller parts of water uniting." Uhh, ya.. that's how it works.

I'm still interested as to why anyone would go about proving the bible, or providing "proof of evidence." Again I ask, is this not undermining faith, and therefore a form of blasphemy?

[edit on 13-12-2007 by scientist]

Originally posted by AshleyD
Mormon "Bible"

I am a Christian. I was raised in the Mormon Church. I left the church because I found another that better represented my beliefs.

One of the first things I learned was that all the other churches were lying about the Mormon Faith. I may not be a member any longer but being Christian I hate lies. The Book of Mormon is not a Bible. It is a companion book. Mormons use the King James Bible as the Standard Work.

After experimenting in many churches I went into a Christian Book Store and bought a large collection of books by people from various churches on the Mormons. It was the biggest pack of misinformation and lies I've ever seen. I don't consider the authors Christian. They are pretending to be Christian and hurting some very decent honest people with their lies. Please don't help these fakers spread their vile lies. Even though I quit the Church for a reason the Mormon people are the most honest people I've ever know. I was not exposed to liars until I left them. I was shocked to say the least.

The only real difference between Mormons and the mainstream of Christianity is a disagreement about the Godhead. Other than that and a couple of smaller issues they are just like other Christians except they are more honest which is clearly apparent.

Also a lot of pretend Christian Liars try to apply the acts of the fake Mormon Church to the real Mormon Church. Please study before you criticize. Unless you think the King James is not acceptable you have made a false accusation.