British Teacher Faces 40 Lashes for Naming Class Teddy Bear 'Muhammad'

Reply to Chemicalbrother

If my daughter has reached puberty and wanted to get married than yes i am truely happy to get her married off matey!!

blueorder, I have been working with the criminal justice system for a while now and to be honest, we are no better in Western Worlds. In the U.K. nearly everyone is a victim of crime at one point or other in their life, over half of the female population will be sexually assaulted at one point in their life.

We need to sort out our own nations before we begin to judge other people.

Originally posted by Grenade
"Aisha was six or seven years old when betrothed to Muhammad. She stayed in her parents' home until the age of nine, when the marriage was consummated."

So once again, it is a Sin to call a teddy bear Muhammad yet it is perfectly acceptable to marry and have sexual relations with a 9 year old girl.

I point you toward my previous post. Lets play a game of spot the logic? I think we might be here for a while.

Err...so what?

I am sorry, but people used to be getting married by that age all over the World. It was common practice in the Middle East and Africa for a girl once she had reached puberty to be married, be she Jewish, Christian, Muslim or a tribal religion.

You can't just single out one group to say: "Look they are wrong!" when everyone was doing it.

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[edit on 4/12/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by Odium
blueorder, I have been working with the criminal justice system for a while now and to be honest, we are no better in Western Worlds. In the U.K. nearly everyone is a victim of crime at one point or other in their life, over half of the female population will be sexually assaulted at one point in their life.

We need to sort out our own nations before we begin to judge other people.

wooah there bud, I cannot follow your line of reasoning.

Those things you talk about are crimes, and are treated as such, the sexual assault (I think those figures of 50% are not even remotely true btw, would love to see how those are classified) would not be treated as such in the Sudan unless the woman jumped through unimaginable hoops.

TO state for one minute that because people commit crime ( this will happen as long as people populate the earth) that somehow one cannot make a statement that the UK is much better than the Sudan is nonsense.

The UK is a better place than the Sudan, fact, people come to the UK from the SUdan seeking asylum, not vice versa.

Your attitude is symptomatic of the cultural suicide many in the west seem to indulge in, they trot out the fact there is no perfection in the UK (of course there isnt, this is the world of man), that does not mean one cannot make sane judgements, one of which, quite clearly, is that the UK is much better than the Sudan

Originally posted by Odium
Err...so what?

I am sorry, but people used to be getting married by that age all over the World. It was common practice in the Middle East and Africa for a girl once she had reached puberty to be married, be she Jewish, Christian, Muslim or a tribal religion.

You can't just single out one group to say: "Look they are wrong!" when everyone was doing it.




[edit on 4/12/07 by masqua]

So slavery wasn't wrong when us Brits did it because Africans had always done it and Arabs were also enslaving blacks and also whites in Europe?

reply to post by kangjia57


Hilarious. I actually stated that i realise it may be custom in the 7th century to wed young girls. That does not escape the fact that in my opinion God would not approve of a 9 year old girl having sex with a fully grown man. Surely a prophet of God himself would condemn this practice and lead to the advancement of mankind, surely a Prophet of God would realise that peace cannot be achieved by isolating and forcing the world to convert to his beliefs, surely a Prophet of God would not condone murder in his name. Instead it appears Muhammad decided it was a good idea to freeze mankind in the dark ages. Really people, wake up and smell the future.

It amazes me that no matter what is said there is only praise toward this MAN! You say no man is perfect yet Muhammad doesnt seem to have done much wrong in his life in your opinion?

reply to post by Odium


I did not pick out a group of people. I picked out one man who seemingly had direct contact with God. If anyone had the ability to see sense and reasoning it should have been Muhammad. Instead he had the same practices and customs of every other man of the time. The only difference is that Muhammad went to a cave for a few years and came back claiming to be a Prophet of God.

Im sure it seemed a perfectly reasonable story back then, however, in todays world he would be put on the Wogan show and ridiculed ala David Icke.

Maybe Christians married at that age also however i dont recall their Prophet causing any wars, condemning everyone who doesnt believe him to hell or having sex with a 9 year old girl. For the record i dont believe in Christianity or any religion for that matter however i do not deny the existence of God. I simply do not believe any man has ever or will ever directly have contact with something he cannot comprehend.



[edit on 4-12-2007 by Grenade]

Originally posted by Grenade
reply to post by kangjia57

 

Hilarious. I actually stated that i realise it may be custom in the 7th century to wed young girls. That does not escape the fact that in my opinion God would not approve of a 9 year old girl having sex with a fully grown man. Surely a prophet of God himself would condemn this practice and lead to the advancement of mankind, surely a Prophet of God would realise that peace cannot be achieved by isolating and forcing the world to convert to his beliefs, surely a Prophet of God would not condone murder in his name. Instead it appears Muhammad decided it was a good idea to freeze mankind in the dark ages. Really people, wake up and smell the future.

It amazes me that no matter what is said there is only praise toward this MAN! You say no man is perfect yet Muhammad doesnt seem to have done much wrong in his life in your opinion?

I loved Muhammad and his "revelations", one of them allowed him to marry a relative's wife who he took a fancy to, ffs ye cannae make it up!

Starting to ramble here but if Sharia law is so wonderful and Islam is almighty, why do so many Muslims move to the UK and enjoy the freedoms we offer? Wouldnt it make you much more happy to live in a Islamic state? It would certainly make me sleep easier at night. I dont have a problem if you live in your own country but id rather you didnt poison the minds of my children with your sick beliefs.

Maybe thats why so many move here, to propogate and spread the word of Islam to the infedels here in the UK. Unfortunately for you, we are an educated and free people with no interest in moving backward, so may as well get back on the boat to where you came from.

Originally posted by Grenade
Starting to ramble here but if Sharia law is so wonderful and Islam is almighty, why do so many Muslims move to the UK and enjoy the freedoms we offer? Wouldnt it make you much more happy to live in a Islamic state? It would certainly make me sleep easier at night. I dont have a problem if you live in your own country but id rather you didnt poison the minds of my children with your sick beliefs.

Maybe thats why so many move here, to propogate and spread the word of Islam to the infedels here in the UK. Unfortunately for you, we are an educated and free people with no interest in moving backward, so may as well get back on the boat to where you came from.

well said sir!

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[edit on 4/12/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by blueorderwell said sir!

I'll second that.


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[edit on 4/12/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Chemicalbrother

If my daughter has reached puberty and wanted to get married than yes i am truely happy to get her married off matey!!

Before you do that just remember that Islam is not above the law here in the UK. As far as im aware it is illegal to have sex with anyone under the age of 16 and so it should be. Have some respect for your children! I realise in your opinion it is only a woman aka "peice of meat / trophy" but here in the UK we love our children and wish for them to make their own decisions / have a full and happy life. I fail to see how a young girl of 10 or under would enjoy being forced into marraige and then molested by a fully grown man.

I truly hope that when a Muslim dies he meets his maker and is shown the errors of his ways.

Originally posted by Grenade

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Chemicalbrother

If my daughter has reached puberty and wanted to get married than yes i am truely happy to get her married off matey!!

Before you do that just remember that Islam is not above the law here in the UK. As far as im aware it is illegal to have sex with anyone under the age of 16 and so it should be. Have some respect for your children! I realise in your opinion it is only a woman aka "peice of meat / trophy" but here in the UK we love our children and wish for them to make their own decisions / have a full and happy life. I fail to see how a young girl of 10 or under would enjoy being forced into marraige and then molested by a fully grown man.

I truly hope that when a Muslim dies he meets his maker and is shown the errors of his ways.

Indeed Sir, people may worry about global warming, I concern myself with uk islamification, I do not want my daughter growing up in a land where such people are 15%/20%/30% etc of the population

Reply to Grenade

First of all, Muslims move to West because of poverty and to get education not because they scared of Sharia law.
Second if your sick of Islamic teachings than sorry nothing can be done about that and no one will change it even if it is million years from today.
You love your way of life and i love my way of life,always remember not everyone is same as you.

Our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a great man,try to look for things that he did good for humanity.People use to bury thier daughters alive in those days because it was a shame for a family when women gave birth to daughters.When Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) came and spread Islam,he also got rid of those dsigusting things people did to thier daughters.

I have said a million times before that in Islam you follow the rules and laws of where you live!its either you dont read my posts properly or just bring up BS to get on my nerves.

reply to post by blueorder

"
UNITED KINGDOM

Total population: 58.8 million

Muslim population: 1.6 million (2.8%)

Background: The UK has a long history of contact with Muslims, with links forged from the Middle Ages onwards. In the 19th Century Yemeni men came to work on ships, forming one of the country's first Muslim communities. In the 1960s, significant numbers of Muslims arrived as people in the former colonies took up offers of work. Some of the first were East African Asians, while many came from south Asia. Permanent communities formed and at least 50% of the current population was born in the UK. Significant communities with links to Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and the Balkans also exist. The 2001 Census showed one third of the Muslim population was under 16 - the highest proportion for any group. It also highlighted high levels of unemployment, low levels of qualifications and low home ownership. The UK favours multiculturalism, an idea shared by other countries which, in general terms, accepts all cultures as having equal value and has influence over how government engages with minorities.
"
SOURCE

Not quite up to worrying levels when looked at from a national scale, however Muslims made up 8 per cent of London's population overall but 36 per cent of the Tower Hamlets and 24 per cent of the Newham populations.

SOURCE

1 in 10 people in London are Muslim and with the majority under the age of 16 the real baby boom is yet to happen. It is also the fastest growing minority in the UK. Personally im beginning to worry already.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Grenade
First of all, Muslims move to West because of poverty and to get education not because they scared of Sharia law.

So poverty and education are more important to them than living under shariah law- good perhaps they can remember that when they move to the west, merci muchos gracias chum

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[edit on 4/12/07 by masqua]

reply to post by Grenade


Indeed, I would say in 10 years the Islamic percentage will be in double figures.

Love that nonsense about the "UK favours multiculturalism"- the ruling elite may, but not, I would suggest, most British people.

Most British people would not equate Sudanese culture as being of equal value to British culture

Originally posted by MGauntz
I am not Muslim, and I don't like to associate myself with any religion...but that statement was a bit harsh. Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jewish people, they have all done wrongs in the past. I can name things every religion has done terribly.

Ok I'll take you up on your challenge.

Buddhism
and
Jainism

has to be done in the name of the religion, just curious to see what you come up with. I actually liked your post.



[edit on 4/12/2007 by Wig]

BlueOrder – The statistics are pretty easy to find, here’s one from the United States of America:
4 out of 5 students (81%) have experienced some form of sexual harassment during their school years. - "Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey," National Institute of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Dept. of Justice,1998.

In the United Kingdom, in a sample of 430 women from North London 23% had been forced to have sex. 23% [1] forced to have sex; this isn’t even counting every other crime that counts as sexual assault. In fact, if you speak to most women in the United Kingdom they will have been molested against their will if they are between the ages of 18 and 25 – more often then not in night clubs and unaware this is a crime. It’s estimated that 91% of women who are raped in this country do not tell anyone. [2] Also:

According to a news report on BBC1 channel presented in 12 November 2007, there were 85000 women raped in UK last year or about 230 cases everyday. This means according to the report that one of every 200 women in UK was raped last year.

Every woman I know as a close-friend has been sexually assault in one way or another to be honest, Western Society for all its individual freedoms still has a lot that is wrong with it.

Furthermore your logic is very flawed; tomorrow a friend of mine is leaving the United Kingdom to live in New Zealand. By your logic, because people move to the United Kingdom we are better than their Nation (in question Sudan) this must mean New Zealand is better than the United Kingdom. Oddly enough it doesn’t, what it does mean is that for some people individual Nations are not suited for them and they desire to find a better life elsewhere. Migration is a constant circle, for example there are a large number of Polish people at present moving into the United Kingdom but there also a large number of people moving to Poland from other European Nations and so on and so fourth. Due to this basic an argument on migration statistics is heavily flawed and shows no validity in a debate.

Your sane judgements, just like Grenade’s are nothing more than the product of socialization. To you, the age limit of consent is 16 – that’s what you believe, but there’s not valid reason for this. It is just what you have been told, time and time again. Look at Japan – I seriously doubt you’d call Japan an immoral society, but the age of consent in Japan in 13, in fact there was no age of consent till a few years ago. I doubt you’d call Israel an immoral society – but the age of consent for sexual acts that don’t include intercourse is 14. South Korea is also 13, due to this are you going to remove all products from these 3 Nations? Will you stop buying products produced in Japan, China (age 14), and so on and so fourth?[3] Or is it just a case of you going: Well it was wrong for him to do it back then because…welll…errr…exactly. Because in modern society in the United Kingdom we are told the age of consent are 16 without any valid reason for it. Please find a reason as to why the age of 16 is used in this country.

Now, think back to the time the Qur’an was wrote. The average life span in the Middle East during this period wasn’t even 50 for the common classes. Thus it was very common for people to take a wife when they hit puberty, it was the only way to know that people could reproduce and thus the society could live on. They did not have the choices we now have to wait till we are in our 30s to have children because so many of them were dying, furthermore so many children were also dying in the first years of their life and during birth. You are trying to turn a very complex issue into a yes or no answer.

Do you think it’s right for a 9-year-old girl to have sexual relations?

But the fact is, the question isn’t this black and white. You have to factor in many things, society back then, life span and expectancy, the differences between children then and now and thousands of other variables. You also are attempting to place harm – that the child was taken advantage of – without any form of proof. You don’t have anything written by the girl saying that she was abused, so you can only assume by what you know of children now – but the fact is, this didn’t happen two days ago in the United Kingdom.

Grenade, in my view Mohammed did much wrong. But the fact is you are attacking him from a slanted, Western and contemporary perspective without any historical forethought to the debate. Again let’s use the age of consent argument, you so like to bring forward. In Kazakhstan the age of consent is 18 [3] and thus you are immoral for suggesting that it should be 16. In fact, you are a sick disgusting child abuser because of this? In reallity you aren’t, you were just raised to believe a different number.

Furthermore, the mention of the Christian Prophet is pointless – Jesus is a Prophet in Islam called Isa. Thus they believe in many of this teachings and there are enough claims of Jesus being married and so on and so fourth. Also another example from the period is the sister of Theodosius II who was called Pulcheria who took a vow of chastity at the age of 9. If you do some research you’ll see a lot of people back then were getting married. You are not the moral authority and can’t say what is right or wrong.

You can not prove that any harm was caused in this event and due to this, there’s no event. Assumed harm, isn’t harm.

As for the percentage of Islamic people living in the United Kingdom - so what? Your claims that they are slowly taking over, was said about black people in the 1950's, the Chinese, the Jews at one point and so on and so fourth. In fact, what you are doing now is very similar to what was happening in the 12th Century to the Jewish population of the United Kingdom. "They are taking over. They want to force and change our way of life. They are killing us." and so on and so fourth.

I'm a white, non-religious (Agnostic) male who lives in an area filled with Muslims. The area is a lot nicer then the area in Coventry I lived, which had only white people. I have been shown more kindness by Muslims then I have by the average white person, I can never remember an example of a white family getting married where I lived and having everyone invited, food being brought to my door because I live near them and so on and so fourth.

However, some work on the younger generation of Muslims is needed. But it is also needed on the Younger Generation of White children. Just because some areas of London have a high Islamic population is of no worries to me and shouldn't be to you, do you worry about the 60,000 Jews in Barnet? There was a lot of Jewish extermism in recent years and there still is now in some parts of the World.

Back in May of this year (2007) my girlfriend was attacked in a Train Station, as was another girl. The only people to intervene to protect them both, was myself, a group of 6 taxi drivers, an older Turkish man (who was over 60) and a South African male. There were over 50 witnesses, that walked past as an older man was being kicked on the floor by two girls and one man, while another girl was being attacked by one man and me and my girlfriend were being attacked by 3 men. If it wasn't for those Asian Taxi Drivers, the South African, the older Turkish man and the girl would have been seriously hurt.

Out of over 50 people, two were from an ethnic minority. Yes, over 50 white people - men and women - walked on as an elderly person was being attacked. None of them even called the Police, it was the taxi drivers. If me and my girlfriend can stand up to three of them, how many business men would it have taken to portect that elderly man who spent over a month in hospital? Not many, two or three?

Sorry but white people are just as bad as Asians, it is just you who likes to single out one group of people. So what if some Muslims commit crime? That doesn't mean you should remove Islam, I see white people commit crime, I don't think we should kill all white people.

You punish the guilty, you leave the innocents alone. Just because you dislike the laws in place in Sudan shows you should not go there. If you do go on holiday, do a bit of research and find out the laws of that country. Because I am sure you'd not like for someone to come to the U.K. and break a law over here reguardless of how many people it hurts.

[1] The World Health Organization. “SexualViolence Facts.” www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention
[2] politics.guardian.co.uk...
[3] en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Odium


Well you seem to be putting words in my mouth now. I would like you to go over your last post and when you refer to my opinions actually quote me.

I believe all religions are false, however, i also believe Islam is the only mainstream religion to have failed to modernise.