Western religion has killed more people than cancer.

Roger,

Wow...nicely done. I agree with your premise. There is often to much insecurity and terror used or implied in the type of "time warp" technique used so often in the posts such as the OP has used here.

In this type of forum I see this type of insecure technique used often by people with what I call a television education catering to their emotional insecuritys. Some of course worse than others. They simply do not know enough information to put or connect the dots together and see a bigger picture outside of thier emotionalism. They take a bite of the apple ..carte blanch and dont know the difference.

What is worse to me is that I see the body politic subtly catering to this mindset in certain avenues. And furthermore the body politic finances public education..no dobut to me they are attempting to insert this type of insecurity in the classroom. After all classrooms are the perfect venue to take advantage of overly emotional inseure minds. A cloistered enviornment which will secure for the body politic a predictable electorate.

Fear and insecurity are powerful tools on the uneducated..

Nicely stated on your part ..thank you ,

Orangetom

There is a good deal of secularist propaganda to the effect that religion is at the root of all the strife in the world. The facts, as opposed to the propaganda, are very simple. Wars fought by, or on behalf of, the Church (such as the Crusades) have killed about 4,500,000 people over the last 2000 years. Secular humanist, militant atheist and Nazis (i.e. pagans) have accounted for something nearer 200,000,000 in the last 80 years.

That includes the Nanking Massacre and Pol Pot. In terms of numbers, religion motivated war pales in comparison.

you all have good points, maby i should have done some more extemsive research. i accept defeat on this point, though i do not leave empty handed. this post was more of a "knowledge fishing" type of endevour. so, another question: why do people feel the need to kill in the name of religion, BUT with out religion, people seem to go crazy( communist Russia and China). why the love hate relation ship?

Originally posted by superevoman
you all have good points, maby i should have done some more extemsive research. i accept defeat on this point, though i do not leave empty handed. this post was more of a "knowledge fishing" type of endevour. so, another question: why do people feel the need to kill in the name of religion, BUT with out religion, people seem to go crazy( communist Russia and China). why the love hate relation ship?

superevoman,

This is a very good question you have made. I so seldom see anyone making this question.
The answer will take some thinking and is not a concept which most would accept as it is so contrary to much of todays education and emotional type thinking which passes for excellence.

The answer is simply that the raw material of which men are made is simply inferior material. On our own terms we, in process of time, deteriorate. History alone proves this point. Our wisdom as humans alone has put us in better cars, homes, clothes, provided us better medicines, We have better educations than in times past...more people can read and write...but has this in fact made us better, wiser people or merely people only intrested in justifying our egos?? Watch the history of many nations ..both ancient and even today.

This is the conclusion to which I have come. Our raw material on our own is not good material. It is lousy ..if you want to be frank about it. Humans/men on their own merits can only produce the tyranny of which you describe..and that is precisely what it is ..tyrany. The best form of government or rule that educated men can produce. You may start out in the begining with something decent but it will always deteriorate into tyranny and debauchery under the rule of men.

In some arenas of thought this is called Total Depravity.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by superevoman
another question: why do people feel the need to kill in the name of religion, BUT with out religion, people seem to go crazy( communist Russia and China). why the love hate relation ship?

Because communist Russia and China are not without religion. The religion has become statolatry, which is worship of the state.

When theists try to say China and Russia are atheist states, they aren't telling the whole story. They're actually fundamentalist states in which the members are expected to worship the state itself, and the leaders thereof.

Saying that atheism has killed anyone is disingenuous. Hell, it's outright lies.

Atheists don't kill to enforce unbelief. We just chip away at the walls of delusion on internet chat boards, one mind at a time.

reply to post by MajorMalfunction


MM you have been proven wrong before I forgot by who but I will find the post.
Saying they worshiped the state is in actuality false. However, I will agree that Stalin was a Christian before he started his ascension into supreme...he did turn atheist and he starved a whole nation.

You had people that ran churches murdered, churches were looted and Albania had turned into the first Atheist country. It is not because they were Atheist that they killed but their motives. Why do you think Russia turned into a religious country again? Because they can use that as a motive to rule the people even easier.

I do not want to go in how public schools were taught to hate Christians in those areas or such because it is pointless to argue about something that happened long ago. The main thing is that we learn from our past mistakes and if we don't then something worse happens until we learn.

Originally posted by amitheone
That includes the Nanking Massacre and Pol Pot. In terms of numbers, religion motivated war pales in comparison.

Agreed.

And, if one merely looks at the first and second world wars alone, they easily outnumber anything religious in history and those were wars fought supporting political ideologies.

The Inquisition was under 100,000, and the crusades upwards of 9 Million.

Its mankinds prejudice, mankinds racsim, mankinds greed, mankinds ego, and most of all, mankinds hate, that kills.

I fail to see how the teaching of Love one another kills.

The only thing that gets terminated under the true teachings of Christ is hate.

When that happens, in unison, the world changes.

Think as one body.

Peace




[edit on 21-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Major Malfunction,

I have a problem with your position on stateology.

I have or see no difference in the concept of the worship of the state under Communist governments or the worship of the state under Christian appearing governments. It is still the worship of the state and bears the same kind of fruit.

By thier fruit you will know them.

Marx, Lennin, Engles..all logical in their premises..their dogmas.

THe Catholic Church in the inquesition and Crusades...logical in their dogmas.

Check out the fruit.

It is obvioius to me that they are both not what they appear to be but are quite logical.

I call this the "Age of Man." What actual fruit has the age of man borne out in this regard of the topic of which many of us on this thread are posting.

Check out the fruit if the Age of Men. Men of logic and reason.

Thanks,
Orangetom

We have some terrorists bombings here and there, buy I don't think it's massive.

There were a lot fewer people and a lot less advanced technological means of killing people during the time of the Crusades. If the Crusades happened today, oh, right, that's why they want Nukes!

God knows who will be evil and who wont,...

Yet THIS is the means HE chooses to deal with us considering all His power? Pathetic.

...they are athiestic mindset, nobody matters.

NIHILISM is the word you are not reaching for. The idea that nobody matters has nothing to do with not believing there is a god.

Great men of "Reason and Logic. How many people were killed out of this greatness..logic and reason??

Marx never advocated mass genocide. That was Stalin. He killed Jews like Hitler did. Hitler and Stalin killed Jews because they were raised Christians.

Frankly most of us here don't know much about the religious war history or potential of China and other Eastern nations. Almost all discussion here is focussed on the Islamic-Judeo-Christian triad. The most I've heard about China's involvement in the Middle East is they need oil, that's all. The religious aspect is as high over their heads as Pol Pot is to ours.

One thing is clear, Catholicism, Christianity and Islam had been exported to China and the East long and away before Communism. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school!

C

Supervoman -


i will not be like other christians that will tell you how wrong your thought is, or condemn you for speaking the truth.

You Are Right!

The land in the middle east; people are dying over. A deserted land, a waste land with little profit for its people because it no longer yields fruit. And this for the sake of holding the "holy land". Because of perspective of where Love was born, people are fighting over it, instead of taking the teachings and understanding and actually implementing it in their own life. i know many, many christians who devote their every Sunday to church, and yet will not stop for a neighbor in need, yet will not sacrifice any little portion of their own life and comfort for another. They would rather let them sit and die, stating it is out of their hands; they are incapable and call on God to do Everything. Many have died for the sake of "religion". And, quite literally it is not right, it is rather insane!

But, that it isn't because of His message, it is because of *people*, and their lack or desire to want to hear the truth, to learn of the truth, to live the truth; to actually put forth the effort required to become a better person. People don't want to overcome the issue, because if they truly did, the world would already have changed.

You've brought up the issue. Quite well as matter of fact. Thank you. But my question is this:

Are you going to stand in judgement and point fingers and blame everyone around you while name calling and throwing slander hither to? or are you going to get on board and help change the world? Because right now, you look like just another "christian" to me...

You are right. So, what are you going to do about it?

Love Always

Supervoman is 100 % right.

"Religion", has caused more pain in this current world (meaning 2000 years) than any other one source that exists...

think about it. You see it every day...

Example: The gawdy temples built for the sake of what? Coming to worship? Lets really state what is happening... The temple goes up, supplies bought for the temple could feed how many people??? Hmmm...that is quite alot considering that children through out the entire World are dying because of hunger. Children dying because of our greed, because we must have a beautifully ordained place to call upon God, even though He already gave us one called His world! Then there is power, water, normal monthly utilities to keep up for such a place... Hmmmm, i wonder how much that is and how many people could be fed with that? Then there are the fine clothes people must buy in order to go to church so they may look accordingly for their neighbor. i wonder how much that cost and if their neighbors opinion was worth the money. And that is just with 1 temple. How many temples are there???? In the u.s., hmmm, in the world??? How many times do you have to times those numbers by? Can you see the waste? Can you see the consequence? PEOPLE DIE BECAUSE OF OUR GREED, for the sake of religion.

Just one very very small example.

Do you want me to go on? Because there is a long and exhaustive list of examples.

Religion Killed The message, and you wonder why people detest those hiding behind scripture alone...

And Thats the truth!

i commend you for speaking up.

love always

P.S. i don't see satan in your soul, i see a realist which is what the world needs.

Western Religion
I think religion as a whole has kept us from realizing the truth. If religion was never heard of then maybe we would be in the Cosmo's by now. If religion was never brought into our civilization. then we would truly be free.

Christ created His message and those to carry it forward.

Man created religion and divided the message.

Step out of "Holy" places, for nothing holy resides within them.

THE WORK IS WITHIN EACH OTHER... AND THE CAUSE OF IT IS LOVE.

Love always

Originally posted by michaelsannie
Supervoman is 100 % right.

"Religion", has caused more pain in this current world (meaning 2000 years) than any other one source that exists...

Umm no. WWI and WWII combined might possibly have killed more people than all religious wars combined. The classification of each war is really the point of contention.

Get a book on the history of war, and read. There is a difference between fighting a war for religion, and fighting a war while professing a religious affilitation.

Political Ideologies have killed more people then anything in persuit of their undertaking.

Peace

[edit on 25-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]
WWII addition and classification

[edit on 25-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Umm no. WWI alone killed more people than all religious wars combined.

Get a book on the history of war, and read. There is a difference between fighting a war for religion, and fighting a war while professing a religious affilitation.

Political Ideologies have killed more people then anything in persuit of their undertaking.

Peace

Wait a minute...stop the presses..

am I getting this correct......????

Are you indirectly saying that political ideologies are the new paradim or religion. This must be true by the number of Zealots/Devout in this field.

Could one say....by this....that politics is the new religion??


Columbus,

One thing is clear, Catholicism, Christianity and Islam had been exported to China and the East long and away before Communism. Pol Pot went to a Catholic school!

I do not think that Is the point being debated here.

I believe the point is how many people have been killed in the name of spreading communist ideology...in time or the Age of Men. Men of logic and reason.

Orangetom

[edit on 25-12-2007 by orangetom1999]