Western religion has killed more people than cancer.

Originally posted by Columbus
Since we only have a limited history of secular government and even more limited history of cancer deaths and the population has been growing exponentially and was necessarily comparatively insignificant preceding the dawn of secular government, it is clear the title of the thread is totally absurd.

Men of Reason do not murder. There is no reason in that. Communism was never an ideology that advocated murder. As I said, Stalin and Hitler contemporarily murdered Jews because they were raised Catholics.

C

Wait a minute..stop the presses again!!!

Are you implying that somehow the spirit of Communism got hijacked by folks like Stalin, Pol Pot , Mao Tse Tung et al. They are hijackers. Not real Communists?? Hmmmmm....hijackers...if so..are they running a counterfit Communism Scam?? Modern Communism ..in secular times is a counterfit of what the founders intended??
If so...you may have a good point here. That is however not how the history books read...if you can ever find good history of what happened. I suspect you have to do alot of digging to get past the PC stuff.

The part of your post about Hitler and Stalin murdering Jews because they were raised Catholics doesnt ring a bell with me. Could they have hijacked the religion (Communism/National Socialism)to justify their actions in like manner to my reference to Joseph Stalin in the previous paragraph??

Is it possible that we have an awful lot of hijackers out here ..or that the history books are themselves being hijacked. How about counterfitters??

You know..I like to call it the Hitler Channel..not the history channel.

Men of reason do not murder. Hmmm....

I am thinking that back somewhere ..it was Thomas Aquinas who merged Aristotlian Logic with catholic church dogma. I might even have the wrong philosopher here but somewhere I recall logic being merged with Catholicism. Perhapsed you know this history better than I.

Absurd or not the title is the statement the OP is trying to make. Population figures are often projected backwards by mathematicians. Nonetheless...with smaller populations this is a significant number of the then populations.

Hmmmmm ...projecting foreward again..or perhapsed backwards...could it also be that back in history, someone, ..some leaders...counterfitted Christian doctrine in order to justify an inquisition and crusade?? Hijackers and counterfitters?? But this is not how the history books read??

Well I think you get the idea. Are you up standing the night watch as am I???

Hi Fi Guy,

I agree with you about Politics being a religion and religious in nature. The main facet of politics I have deduced in the last five years since coming to this realization....is that politics is "Occult " in its true nature.

By Occult I mean ..hidden in its nature... Concealed from most peoples. A standard for insiders and a different standard for outsiders. This amounts to a religious economic dogma or pattern known as Feudalism. Royalty..which is also a history of insiders and outsiders.

The very intresting thing to me about the Occult/dual/feudal system of politics is that it pays for or finances public education. What are they teaching us here?? Think long and hard on this one.

Some folks would say I am crazy...if so I am working on it very hard.
Logic and reason are a great thing ...yes??

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 25-12-2007 by orangetom1999]

Originally posted by michaelsannie
Christ created His message and those to carry it forward.

#1. Being Christian: Whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Man created religion and divided the message. (Hence No Church Holds the Truth)

How can the above message (#1) be divided? It can't. But it can have superlatives added to it, so that in order to be Saved, you need something MORE. This is what divides the denominations.

Religion is not of Christ.

Even in one statement, such as above #1, it is still religion. If you have only one belief it is still religion. It is only defined as a religion because of the number of people who hold it, because for one person it is just a belief. One man is not a religion. All Christians are so because of #1. Christianity is a religion.

His message of Love is.

#2. (Superlative to being Christian) Agape your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.

Hence, the Crusaders did not Agape their enemies, yet this is not required in #1, so they were still Christians and by definition Saved.

C

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Are you implying that somehow the spirit of Communism got hijacked by folks like Stalin, Pol Pot , Mao Tse Tung et al. They are hijackers. Not real Communists?? Hmmmmm....hijackers...if so..are they running a counterfit Communism Scam?? Modern Communism ..in secular times is a counterfit of what the founders intended??
If so...you may have a good point here. That is however not how the history books read...if you can ever find good history of what happened. I suspect you have to do alot of digging to get past the PC stuff.

Yes! You can read the writings of Marx himself, as all good philosophy students do. There was a fracture in the plan of the Soviet Union before Stalin even took power. Lenin didn't even want Russia to have an army.

The part of your post about Hitler and Stalin murdering Jews because they were raised Catholics doesnt ring a bell with me. Could they have hijacked the religion (Communism/National Socialism)to justify their actions in like manner to my reference to Joseph Stalin in the previous paragraph??

Got Mit Uns (God With Us) was the motto of Hitler's SS. Stalin didn't hijack Communism, people loved Hitler and they loved Stalin. Both political movements became centered on these men and their emotional delusional whims rather than any kind of fundamental plan.

Is it possible that we have an awful lot of hijackers out here ..or that the history books are themselves being hijacked. How about counterfitters??

There are people alive today who witnessed Hitler and Stalin! This was only 60 some years ago, man! What's wrong with you?

Nonetheless...with smaller populations this is a significant number of the then populations.

Except that there were NO secular governments before mid 1700's, so ALL killing before then was exclusively religious. And today, by far most governments are secular in principle.

...counterfitted Christian doctrine in order to justify an inquisition and crusade?? Hijackers and counterfitters?? But this is not how the history books read??

I beg your pardon, the Crusades were motivated by fear and justified by fear. Even Christopher Hitchens makes judgments based on fear.

The underlying factor that distinguishes religious from secular killing is the notion that there is an afterlife. If there is an afterlife, this life doesn't really matter. In atheism, there are nihilists who don't believe this life matters, but when you really believe that you can't justify killing any more than not killing. Nihilism doesn't favor murder. Religion does.

That is why there is suicide. A nihilist is more likely to kill himself because of the pointlessness of his own existence. The existence of others is irrelevant. But for the religious man, suicide is a path to heaven for himself and judgment for those he takes with him.

C

reply to post by Columbus


"Heavenly Father Give me thy words"...

"Your understanding is not complete. You hold an element of truth, but only partial truth, as it is truth according to that which resides within earth reality of distortion.

The dimensions, or as described in His message as mansions, holds an ultimate truth, in which all who believe in Love, which is belief in Christ, for Christ became Love, is saved from false thought of existence. The initial statement made resides on this ultimate level. Good job!

All following statements do not coincide with the reality happening upon earth. For religion in itself, in the form of belief creating reality, is not attainable yet by human form. In human distortion, it indeed has created division from sect to sect, in that peace does not reside among the whole, in which is not cohesive with the original intent of the first bestowal. Denial of such is denial of your experience. For it is viewing reality through earths ways that the gift of ultimate truth may be learned.

Faith must accept Faith without contention in order for progression."

i'm being told not to mention what is beyond this. If this is unacceptable, how could a further truth be acceptable.

love

Originally posted by michaelsannie
...only partial truth, as it is truth according to that which resides within earth reality of distortion.

You create an obligation in yourself to explain yet you sabotage your ability to do this by asserting that this reality is a distortion. You don't realize that if what you say is true, it is equally impossible for you to see what you claim to see without distortion.

All following statements do not coincide with the reality happening upon earth.

Meaning when Crusaders killed Moors they were committing an act of Agape upon them? Sure. Love me to death why don't you.

For religion in itself, in the form of belief creating reality, is not attainable yet by human form.

Beg to differ. The belief of Marx created the Russian Revolution. The belief of Kennedy created the Apollo Program. Belief can create reality.

In human distortion, it indeed has created division from sect to sect, in that peace does not reside among the whole, in which is not cohesive with the original intent of the first bestowal.

Human distortion does not create division, rather the facts that the Bible is more than necessary and less than specific. Thus, confirming it is not the word of any God. What you want to be true?

Faith must accept Faith without contention in order for progression."

Circular reasoning. Most of what you say is hard to sort out indicating you don't understand it yourself. Faith is a commitment to ignorance. If you want to know the truth, you must put faith to the sword. This is an axiom.

i'm being told not to mention what is beyond this. If this is unacceptable, how could a further truth be acceptable.

Seriously, seek professional help.

C

[edit on 25-12-2007 by Columbus]

reply to post by Columbus


"If you want to know the truth, you must put faith to the sword. This is an axiom."
Definition of axiom = a universally accepted principle or rule.

At your command and so you willed.

"Most of what you say is hard to sort out indicating you don't understand it yourself."

Because it is difficult for you to understand, is not my error. It is solely your obligation
to raise your level of conscious with the aid of others so that you may understand.

Faith must accept Faith without contention in order for progression.

For all faiths hold truths and will learn from each other. And in acceptance there is peace which is Love, which is further progression.

only partial truth, as it is truth according to that which resides within earth reality of distortion.

"You create an obligation in yourself to explain yet you sabotage your ability to do this by asserting that this reality is a distortion. You don't realize that if what you say is true, it is equally impossible for you to see what you claim to see without distortion."

i know the Father well, for He has prepared me before birth, and in such if you take the time to research spiritual elements, you will find there are those ascending reaching for attainment, and those descending helping to uplift those in becoming. My understanding
resides within ultimate truth because of my very nature of Love for all, in which i am given the gift and ability to speak as a messenger for your well being. Earthly distortion does not effect my understanding, as i rely on the Father to give me His words.

"Meaning when Crusaders killed Moors they were committing an act of Agape upon them? Sure. Love me to death why don't you."

We both know the message of Christ was one of preserving life. Again earthly distortion and mans error justified the crusaders in their mind to commit such an act. It does not mean they will not be reprimanded according to Gods Law, as the Law Will be fulfilled and None can escape it. And eventually, All are saved. It is just a matter of time whether now or in the eternities each individual chooses. For none will deny God.

For religion in itself, in the form of belief creating reality, is not attainable yet by human form.

"Beg to differ. The belief of Marx created the Russian Revolution. The belief of Kennedy created the Apollo Program. Belief can create reality."

Again you speak of earthly creation when i speak of Heavenly creation, in which all religions are trying to create. And none will do so as they are not acceptant of Gods law of Love. We speak of two different platforms in which you refuse to acknowledge. Humans in human form are capable of human creation, not Godly creation.

"Human distortion does not create division, rather the facts that the Bible is more than necessary and less than specific. Thus, confirming it is not the word of any God. What you want to be true?"

LoL. Essentially yes; What you want to be true. However, this does not mean your truth is ultimate truth. Ultimate for you may be, but not for the whole. And, less than specific confirms the word of God in order to afford you your reality, for God wants what you want for yourself. The question it seems, is do you want a peaceful world? Do you value Love, kindness and truth?

P.S.

Please explain your definition of Agape, as i believe you are using it inappropriately...

it means wide open...

and attacks are usually pretty much in the wide open.

Originally posted by Columbus
Faith is a commitment to ignorance.

Faith is a commitment to belief.

When one knows, you move beyond and Faith is no more.

Originally posted by Columbus
If you want to know the truth, you must put faith to the sword. This is an axiom.

To know the truth, you must live the truth. When you know the truth, there is no need to put faith to the sword, for the truth is known.

Originally posted by Columbus
By definition, an Immortal entity cannot die, sorry God-Jesus.

Well now, that all depends on if the definition is complete in its scope of knowledge, now doesnt it. Jesus rose from the dead ushering in something previously unwitnessed. The ressurection.

Somethings have to be ventured to gain.

And like a seed, you have to die to live..

Dont trust all your definitions for not everthing that is, has been revealed.

Peace Brother


[edit on 25-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Thanks HIFIGUY -

That was an absolutely beautiful post.




MERRY CHRISTMAS!

love always

Michaelsannie and Hi Fi Guy,

Well said to the two of you. I would like to add to the topic line..concerning human reasoning and logic.

Where human reasoning and Logic fall short is the inability to realise, understand, or be aware that Faith and Truth are one of His names among many.

Resurection and Life are other of His names among many. Ironically ..even many who claim His name do not realize the scope of this.

Orangetom

Originally posted by michaelsannie
At your command and so you willed.

Faith must accept Faith without contention in order for progression.

You contradict yourself.

Let's say I believe I can jump over a chasm. Let's say I have faith I can jump over a chasm. In which postulate do I attempt to jump over the chasm?

Let's say I jump over the chasm and fail. The truth is I could not jump over the chasm contradicts my belief and faith.

If I do not jump over the chasm, I retain belief and faith. The truth remains in contradiction to my belief and faith.

Your faith in Christ is the chasm.

Because it is difficult for you to understand, is not my error. It is solely your obligation to raise your level of conscious with the aid of others so that you may understand.

You contradict yourself and use expressions that have no generally accepted meaning. It is YOUR obligation to define the terms you use rather than be obtuse and blame people for being blind who do not follow you blindly.

For all faiths hold truths...

Wrong, see above.

And in acceptance there is peace which is Love, which is further progression.

Certainly I agree, if we accept each other, not a go-between like Christ, we will have peace and that will be progress, but Faith halts progress. As I explained above, if you commit to faith, you will never know the truth of whether you can jump the chasm.

You will be ignorant to the truth as long as you are committed to faith. This is an axiom. It is proven above. This is a formally acceptable proof. You can choose to ignore it and live by faith, but you have no truth whatsoever because you have chosen ignorance and you now know it.

only partial truth, as it is truth according to that which resides within earth reality of distortion.

If all reality is distortion, you cannot distinguish ANY truth. This is also an axiom. Would you like proof of it too?

...i am given the gift and ability to speak as a messenger for your well being. Earthly distortion does not effect my understanding, as i rely on the Father to give me His words.

The words of the father would arrive to you distorted. This is axiomatic.

If you were prepared and I wasn't nothing you could do could change that. Nonetheless, I was like you once. I can see you live in the distortion of a fantasy. Reality is the one which has no distortion as it is the same every time you observe it, but a distortion must adapt when confronted by new science.

And eventually, All are saved. It is just a matter of time whether now or in the eternities each individual chooses. For none will deny God.

What's with the threat of Hellfire?

...belief creating reality, is not attainable yet by human form.

Already proven wrong. See above. Personally I like the Apollo Program as a good example. But, of course, as an engineer I do this professionally and your assertion that I can't turn my beliefs into reality is absurd and insulting.

...i speak of Heavenly creation...

Meaning what? No one could ever create something that is not real. That is just imagination.

Ultimate for you may be, but not for the whole.

There is no distinction of ultimate truth from regular truth. If something is true, it is real. There is no superlative to truth. Nothing can be more than real.

...God wants what you want for yourself.

What needs for God? Want needs no superlative. I either want it or not. Whether I get what I want or not seems to be God's choice and doesn't seem to be in his power if he really wants it.

The question it seems, is do you want a peaceful world? Do you value Love, kindness and truth?

Sure, except love isn't supposed to be capitalized unless you mean Agape. I don't want Agape, as I stated above.

Truth can only be had be sacrificing Faith, as I stated above.

C

Originally posted by Columbus
Certainly I agree, if we accept each other, not a go-between like Christ, we will have peace and that will be progress.

In the understanding that Christ is the Love of God, and that all that exists is of God, without Christ there is no love.

Originally posted by Columbus
but Faith halts progress. As I explained above, if you commit to faith, you will never know the truth of whether you can jump the chasm.

What progress is there, but to serve your fellow man and to promote Love and Unity among mankind?

Can you see a higher calling?

Peace


[edit on 25-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Do you know what the 7th church is on earth that will receive warning?

Those who do not believe God or acknowledge His existence.

Consider your warning received, for you have been spoken to in truth.

You ask of Hellfire:

"Hell is that in which you yourself believe in your own mind, for you leave no room in your mind to ponder greater elements that exist, in which behind you will be, as the others move forward without you."

Columbus, He said that to you. Not i. And the very clear feeling that resides is that you will indeed experience Hell on earth before it is through, as your obstinance leaves Him no choice. In which i have Never had that feeling before. Though, i too will be here only in a different way and for a completely different purpose.

i fear for you and your choices, because i know Him well, and i know His Love for me.He will one day look you in the eyes and you will tremble at what you see. He will ask, more like telling you, of the time in which His most beloved spoke to you in truth.

i accept your current faith. completely and totally. Now do something for me when the time comes: All i ask of you, for your well being, is do not offend Him by denying such...

Deal? Promise me...

be well brother.


LOVE always

reply to post by orangetom1999


Dear Orangetom1999:

Thank you for such beautiful thoughts on such a beautiful day!


Big Huge Smile!

Merry Christmas!

Sorry I had to rush out before answering all of you. Hope you understand, you guys outnumber me by at least three to one and I still out-gun you.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Faith is a commitment to belief.

No, faith is a commitment to ignorance. A belief is something that you think might be true but are prepared to admit being wrong if evidence comes to light. Faith is something you think is true and are not prepared to consider any evidence abjectly because any evidence would necessarily disprove your faith.

When one knows, you move beyond and Faith is no more.

This is what I mean when I say that to know the truth you must put faith to the sword. You must overcome the resistance to consider contrary evidence in order to dissuade faith. Christians do not do this out of fear and to do so necessarily ends Christian Faith because of the nature of the body of evidence.

The evidence has not changed in hundreds of years it has been available to us. It merely grows more damning as it piles up beyond one individual's capacity to know.

When you know the truth, there is no need to put faith to the sword, for the truth is known.

Truth cannot be known without first putting faith to the sword because faith is an impediment to truth-seeking. Faith is an assertion of the possession of truth when it is in fact absent. To find truth, you must first admit ignorance. You can not achieve this while professing faith.

Well now, that all depends on if the definition is complete in its scope of knowledge, now doesnt it. Jesus rose from the dead ushering in something previously unwitnessed. The ressurection.

It was never possible that Jesus could die, since he was immortal. There was never any risk that he would not be ressurrected. It was merely a charade, a game, pretense.

Somethings have to be ventured to gain.

Exactly. Jesus risked nothing, since the outcome was known in advance.

Consider this: Is it possible that God could sacrifice anything? Is there anything he could give up that he could not create again or take back? The answer is axiomatically no. Therefore Salvation is absurd.

And like a seed, you have to die to live.

Seeds don't die.

Dont trust all your definitions for not everthing that is, has been revealed.

Definitions are pre-requisites of truth. I know you have no definitions and that is your disadvantage.

C

Originally posted by michaelsannie
Please explain your definition of Agape, as i believe you are using it inappropriately... it means wide open...

Agape is the word translated as Love in the Bible. It is not the same word love that we use conversationally. It can be applied to actions that normal people would consider abominable, such as The Crusades.

and attacks are usually pretty much in the wide open.

Snipers.

C

Originally posted by orangetom1999
Where human reasoning and Logic fall short is the inability to realise, understand, or be aware that Faith and Truth are one of His names among many.

Faith is a commitment to Ignorance. God's name is Commitment to Ignorance. Human Reasoning and Logic hasn't fallen short, only yours has.

C

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
In the understanding that Christ is the Love of God, and that all that exists is of God, without Christ there is no love.

This is all false. I have abandoned Christ, yet I still feel love and I am still capable of Agape, both. These concepts are cleaved independent before you.

What progress is there, but to serve your fellow man and to promote Love and Unity among mankind?

Service is not progress but constancy. Progress is advancement, rising higher. Christianity in it's ignorance restrains man's advancement as evidenced by the Dark Ages. Advancement of the mind of man has been relatively unabated since the Renaissance.

Can you see a higher calling?

Calling, called by God, I am called by my own Spirit. It says fly, be free, be creative. When I was In Christ, this was suppressed.

I see that in all of you as you struggle tangled in a web of circular reasoning and undefinitions and outright fantasy.

C

Originally posted by michaelsannie
Do you know what the 7th church is on earth that will receive warning?

This is fantasy of course.

Consider your warning received, for you have been spoken to in truth.

No.

You ask of Hellfire:

"Hell is that in which you yourself believe in your own mind, for you leave no room in your mind to ponder greater elements that exist, in which behind you will be, as the others move forward without you."

I leave far more room in my mind than you. Your mind is shut out to all but a narrow simplistic view of God. Your mind is in a constant state of evasion as you struggle with me. How can you think you make progress while you are satisfied with the little you have. You can only advance when you are NOT satisfied. I am not satisfied with your simplistic God and I have found much more.

Columbus, He said that to you. Not i.

There is no He, it was you. Since you threaten me, I turn the other cheek as you have failed to do so in Christ's own directive. Pathetic.

...you will indeed experience Hell on earth before it is through, as your obstinance leaves Him no choice.

He has more choices than you restrict Him too. How can you be so ignorant of the power of God and say that He cannot do something if it is his choice. God does not limit himself to your boundaries.

If there is any hell on Earth, it will be a direct result of Christian voters. To Iran they say, and the inevitable Armageddon it will bring. It will be Glorious! Sick.

In which i have Never had that feeling before. Though, i too will be here only in a different way and for a completely different purpose.

As I said. And it is my failure if you go through with it.

i fear for you and your choices, because i know Him well, and i know His Love for me.

It doesn't show from your own words. God seems to be more capable and forgiving that you are. Just because you don't believe He can do these things doesn't mean He can't.

He will one day look you in the eyes and you will tremble at what you see. He will ask, more like telling you, of the time in which His most beloved spoke to you in truth.

And I will say, WHO ARE YOU?

i accept your current faith. completely and totally.

You insult me. I don't live in ignorance as you do.

Now do something for me when the time comes: All i ask of you, for your well being, is do not offend Him by denying such...

Deal? Promise me...

WHO? Deny what?

C

Originally posted by Columbus
Definitions are pre-requisites of truth.

You speak as though the truth requires justification through definition.

The Truth is that which is unwavering and unchangeable.

The Truth is before there was witness to bring forth definition.

Originally posted by Columbus
I know you have no definitions and that is your disadvantage.

The Truth of this matter is you dont know what I know.

This is a fact.

Peace