Conclusion: The Aliens Are Not Our Friends

Hello.. first post... first UFO/Conspiracy forum. I'm sure I'm not the first to proclaim this, but it's a new theory for me and thought I'd run it by everyone and get if off my chest.

First, if you believe in Alien visitors at all, then it's hard not to also believe they had something to do with our religions forming due to ancient visitations and sightings.

Secondly, religion has been a burden on all of the world and I would argue has done much more harm that good, especially to the extent that it keeps us in darkness and ignorance.

Conclusion, any aliens that would manipulate us in this way, or merely allow our primitive ancestors to run amuck with all that religious crap based on our experiences with them surely don't give a damn about us.

I disagree that all aliens are purely benevolent. As we have in the Middle East, there could be some Aliens who have gotten hold of advanced "magical" technology but were not evolved emotionally enough to use it wisely.

Perhaps some rogue aliens dropped by to cause trouble and mate with our beautiful females (Genesis reference). But, surely, if there were also some more caring aliens who heard about their manipulation, they would have intervened not just to put an end to the "bad boys" antics, but to also correct us in the well-known and unhealthy religious path.

Or, perhaps the nice aliens care for us like we do with those in Darfur, but turn a blind eye, or realize we are so backward that they just don't get bothered by our suffering.

Or, perhaps they have a more harsher attitude towards life and regard our sufferings as necessary and inescapable part of life. But, that doesn't fly since it was their kind who antagonised the whole situation in the first place.

Anyway, that's my take. Comments welcome.

jats

I will totally disagree because I feel that religion is beneficial. If you don't believe me, you should take a look at the alternative, such as the brutal regimes of Stalin, Lenin, and Mao Zedong.

Not all atheists are bad, but I sure wouldn't want to live in a world of atheism.

Welcome to ATS.

How about this variation:

evil attracts evil, good attracts good. Therefore, we as a humanity would have the possibility to be visited by the good ones, if we´ve been visited by exploitative ones up to now.

Damn, you're off to a flying start. Now you've POed half of the religious forum, at least half of the Society for Benevolent Alien Contact, and all of those that think aliens don't exist to begin with.

I just have one question: Did you learn to swim the same way without having a near death experience?

I like you're style.

Welcome to the wonderful world of ATS. I'm really glad you came by. Contact me if you're ever in the market for Kevlar underwear.

Originally posted by mentalempire
...If you don't believe me, you should take a look at the alternative, such as the brutal regimes of Stalin, Lenin, and Mao Zedong.
...

Are you aware of the arguments against what you say? Stalin merely took advantage of an already docile people who already regared the Czar as one step below God. But, still, there has yet to be an experiment in civilization where the works of Albert Einstein, and other genius pacifists were the respected and well studied works our children were raised on. America is the closest thing we have to that with our seperation of church and state, yet religion still infiltrates, because, like I said, people cling to it.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
...evil attracts evil, good attracts good. Therefore, we as a humanity would have the possibility to be visited by the good ones, if we´ve been visited by exploitative ones up to now.

Well, I don't know about that. Are you saying we as a species are evil and we got our just deserves? That smacks of the religious attitude that we are born as sinners and beyond redemption except through the surrendering of our selves to a dictator... err, higher power.

Or, perhaps you believe in the Law of Attraction???

[edit on 9-11-2007 by jats1]

NGC, thanks, I think ;o) I'm not here to piss people off, but it's enivitable sometimes. There are serious matters, of course, and must be discussed even if it's uncomfortable to some. My own "belief" is not a comfortable one for myself.

I've given the aliens the benefit of the doubt for my whole life, but now I don't think so anymore.


[edit on 9-11-2007 by jats1]

reply to post by mentalempire


You mentioned some brutal regimes all right, but wasn't their religion communism? It was a 'cause' and that cause caused suffering. In terms of a more mundane definition of religion, I'm not sure it makes much difference if you are killed by a communist regime or by the Inquisition, by the Red Army ransacking villages or Christian soldiers massacring indians. History is filled with religious marauders killing 'heathens' because they don't believe in the one true faith. the history of religion is a history of pain for anyone who was not a member. The common element in all these regimes is a CAUSE, and this cause is what its adherents will stop at nothing to achieve. If you are in a religion that professes peace today, that's great, but likely it was built on thousands of dead carcasses.

Tell me something. Why should they give a damn about a race of people, humanity, who has done nothing but destroyed itself throughout its existence? You want to demonize other beings and entities, let's talk about humanity for a little bit... How does that sound?

[edit on 9-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

reply to post by schuyler


Indeed. My point is, that even in the absence of religion, people will misappropriate what may even be good ideas and twist them to gain power thru tyranny and murder. Furthermore, I would argue that the nonreligious ideologies have a even bloodier track record than the religious ones!

Mental, yes, look at Communism... How many people died under the Communist rule of Stalin? I have heard figures that range anywhere from 20-80 million people. Yet, hardly a peep is mentioned about it...

[edit on 9-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Tell me something. Why should they give a damn about a race of people, humanity, who has done nothing but destroyed itself throughout its existence? You want to demonize other beings and entities, let's talk about humanity for a little bit... How does that sound?

[edit on 9-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Well, in our defense, we are CHILDREN in the eyes of the rest of the universer for sure. And it appears we were manipulated towards the worst in ourselves.

It's not hard to imagine that a new species could use some guidance from time to time. Your view is that we are being left alone to suffer the school of hard knocks. Why would an advanced intelligence be so harsh? Doesn't make sense.

To the gentleman who stated the following:

Originally posted by mentalempire
...If you don't believe me, you should take a look at the alternative, such as the brutal regimes of Stalin, Lenin, and Mao Zedong.

I hope you remember that some of the most barbaric acts ever perpetrated by humankind against itself have been done under the guise of religion. The inquisition; the crusades; Hitler considered himself Christian; And I conclude with two words you are familiar with, I'm sure: "Manifest Destiny".

A world filled with atheism is the only option we haven't tried yet. Remember too that atheism doesn't mean a lack of morals or ethics; it simply means that one doesn't wait on an (otherwise unseen) deity to solve one's problems. We don't know that it would be 'worse' to live in such a world if we've never lived in one, and the only one we know is #ty and predominantly "theistic".

To the original poster:
Your first statement isn't entirely true. It's possible that extraterrestrial visitations are happening, but it's hard to prove. It would be even harder to prove that they initiated any of the world's religions. Zechariah Sitchin and Erich von Daniken brought up some tantalizing possibilities, I agree, but these are merely possibilities. It could be just as possible that the world spontaneously appeared yesterday from nothing, bringing with it all the memories we 'own' in this moment.

Your second statement is also partially untrue. It's not possible to conclusively state the damage religion has caused. Currently, there are over 6 billion people on the planet, most involved in some sort of religious or spiritual practice. There have been far more people than that in the total history of the world -- however long it has existed. And for every million that was killed by some misguided religious uprising, I'm sure you can find another million that was positively influenced. It's not uncommon to hear, for instance, that a hardened criminal became a completely reformed Christian, and went on to become a valuable asset to his/her community. And it's not just Christianity; Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali both found their religion during particularly dark phases of their lives.

In conclusion, I will apply the same caution I always do to thoughts like these; be careful about thinking that aliens are only either benevolent or harmful. You might find that they actually don't care about this planet and its inhabitants.

At all.

Originally posted by jats1
Your view is that we are being left alone to suffer the school of hard knocks. Why would an advanced intelligence be so harsh? Doesn't make sense.

Why doesn't it make sense? That argument has never made any sense to me...

[edit on 9-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by jats1
Well, I don't know about that. Are you saying we as a species are evil and we got our just deserves? That smacks of the religious attitude that we are born as sinners and beyond redemption except through the surrendering of our selves to a dictator... err, higher power.
Or, perhaps you believe in the Law of Attraction???

My statement was more of a "law of attraction" kind of statement and less a religious one.

In considering scales of emotion, fear-based humans would attract anger-based dominants (aliens) whereas joy-based humans would attract likewise. Taking this thought to its final conclusion stirs up some provocative content though.

But its not the thread topic anyway, just my private speculation.

I am still waiting for an answer as to why it is that some seem to think it doesn't make sense that an advanced civilization would be watching us fight and not intervene. I imagine that, considering the things we fight over, they view it as being rather comedic.

Things that we fight wars over


1. Religion: Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows?

2. Politics and ideology: Again: Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows?

Originally posted by Mr Jackdaw

To the original poster:
...It would be even harder to prove that they initiated any of the world's religions.

Your second statement is also partially untrue. It's not possible to conclusively state the damage religion has caused. Currently, there are over 6 billion people on the planet, most involved in some sort of religious or spiritual practice. There have been far more people than that in the total history of the world --

In conclusion, I will apply the same caution I always do to thoughts like these; be careful about thinking that aliens are only either benevolent or harmful. You might find that they actually don't care about this planet and its inhabitants.

I wasn't saying that they necessarily initiated the religions themselves, but allowed them to happen. I'm assuming that the worshiping of supernatural entities a common mistake most civilizations make and, they knowing this, allowed it to happen either purposefully or with wreckless disregard. They knowingly opened up a can of worms. And then the religious zealots opened up a can of wupass on the world.

As for your population factoid, I always heard that the population is so large today that only about half of the people ever born in homo sapien history have even died. Just a nit.

And I agree with your last point, which was one of my points, that some relatively nice aliens may exist, but are overall uncercerned with us, but I hold that their neglect or unwillingness to help is not benign. And, there may even be some "evil" aliens. I know that flies in the face of the belief that governments could use this kind of fear to justify space weapons and loss of liberty, but can they be entirely wrong?

We are very close to having an individual set off a nuclear bomb on this planet. This is a reality. If that happened, we would be the losers of the galaxy... an utter embarrassment.

What to do?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Tell me something. Why should they give a damn about a race of people, humanity, who has done nothing but destroyed itself throughout its existence? You want to demonize other beings and entities, let's talk about humanity for a little bit... How does that sound?

It sounds like you need to start your own thread, perhaps not even in the Aliens & UFOs forum. Your idea is certainly legitimate for discussion, but so is the OP's. Let him have his say. That humans treat themselves in what you think is a despicable manner is not the point here.

Originbally posted by mentalempire
Indeed. My point is, that even in the absence of religion, people will misappropriate what may even be good ideas and twist them to gain power thru tyranny and murder. Furthermore, I would argue that the nonreligious ideologies have a even bloodier track record than the religious ones!

And I would argue that you shouldn't separate the two. The key ingredient is not that an ideology is religious, economic, or political, but that it is an ideology where the end justifies the means at any cost. It's an artificial distinction that misses the most important element of having 'a cause.' The cause itself doesn't matter except insofar as it is capable of eliciting the same behaviors.

I suspect the reason more modern disasterous ideologies seem more gruesome is because technology has made it easier to kill and also, we've got pictures. When the Roman Army led by Titus and Vespasian 'put down' the Judaean Revolt in 70 AD, they did so by killing or enslaving every living soul in Jerusalem to the point that the streets were 'rivers of blood.' But....no pictures, no survivors to tearfully tell their story in front of the TV cameras.

I guess that's slightly off-topic, so sorry for the digression. I can't vouch for the veracity of this next but it sees to me that "the literature" has an awfully lot of information to the point that 'the aliens' simply do not care. Whitley Strieber reported in I think his first book, Communion that he questioned the aliens saying, "You have no right to abduct me like this." They replied, "We have every right." Strieber tries to understand how the aliens could possibly believe this, how their value system could be so different that they did not recognize what he considers to be a basic human right to not be treated in such a manner. I don't think he ever resolves the issue. I think that's the most important question to answer here. How can you come to terms with an alien presence if you have no philosophical common ground at all?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I am still waiting for an answer as to why it is that some seem to think it doesn't make sense that an advanced civilization would be watching us fight and not intervene. I imagine that, considering the things we fight over, they view it as being rather comedic.

Things that we fight wars over


1. Religion: Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows?

2. Politics and ideology: Again: Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows?

I really can't see this changing on other planets. To have a whole planet of peace loving hippies from my knowledge on Earth, I find very hard to believe. Yes I only have Earth to compare to other planets, but there's always a bad apple in the bunch. Somebody who wants more than he has. Somebody who wants more and more power.

I'd imagine people with power on other planets are constantly in turmoil with others. Maybe it's just a human thing that we all wish to be the most powerful and some will even kill for it, twist votes, use fraud etc just to get into a position of power. But I can see other 'races out there' being the same really. As I said, it may be on a smaller scale of power (as in the population might be much more peaceful than humans in terms of percentage,) but as stated, I believe there's always a 'bad apple.'

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I am still waiting for an answer as to why it is that some seem to think it doesn't make sense that an advanced civilization would be watching us fight and not intervene. I imagine that, considering the things we fight over, they view it as being rather comedic.

Things that we fight wars over


1. Religion: Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows?

2. Politics and ideology: Again: Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows?

Maybe because our violent nature is a direct result of regressive ET intervention?

Perhaps they want us to destroy ourselves to the point where we beg for a savior, and at that point they come down from the skies pretending to be Gods.

There's a lot of talk about a staged invasion coming, maybe that's when our "saviors" will come to the rescue.

[edit on 9-11-2007 by GeeGee]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I am still waiting for an answer as to why it is that some seem to think it doesn't make sense that an advanced civilization would be watching us fight and not intervene. I imagine that, considering the things we fight over, they view it as being rather comedic.

Things that we fight wars over


1. Religion: Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows?

2. Politics and ideology: Again: Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows?

Real simple. We were children, less evolved, ignorant, and therefore somewhat innocent. Sure, we need to develop on our own, but if we were manipulated, that would be a crime. It seems perfectly natural that advanced civilizations would guide the less developed ones like any universal family or culture would do. But, I see no helping hand at all. And I don't consider the worshiping of gods very much help. They could have taught us how to use our heads.

When I look at our entire history, it does not appear we were touched by God... or supremely intelligent and benevolent Aliens for that matter.

jats