Australia to build HAARP facility.

Originally posted by squiz
reply to post by Tom Bedlam

 

yep, that was the Em experiment I was thinking of. That makes sense, thanks. But I've also heard of this effect in relation to everything from high voltage power lines to old granite castles and even earthquakes.
I not entirely convinced that ELF waves cannot effect us, perhaps even on a biological level, I think we are better defined as biological electric machines with the brain as the receiver.
The ionosphere may have played a bigger part in evolution and life. Just a theory of course, based on the life like properties of plasma.

You can pretty easily measure the time-varying magnetic fields of power lines (oddly enough, not that high) and the rest - you need a minimum amount of induced voltage to fire a neuron. You're not a radio receiver, nanovolts of potential isn't going to do the job.

As I said, you are an extremely poor receiver of ELF due to your size mismatch to a wavelength measured in the tens of millions of feet. Even subs that tow really long antennas for ELF reception (hundreds of feet!) can't couple enough signal to actually receive directly - you have to pick up the E field slope on the antenna and process the noise looking for waveform slopes on the wire that would match the transmission. It's a wretched thing to have to do. You only get low nanovolts of signal and you have to do your best to dig it out of the other noise. As an antenna, you are much worse than that. There really isn't enough signal left to stimulate any biological process.

edit: what life-like properties of plasma? It's just gas molecules with the electrons stripped off. Like in a fluorescent light, or neon sign.

I was thinking that a low ELF wave could carry a HF wave, a pulsing Hf wave, as in your stadium example for instance. How difficult are they to detect? couldn't a elf wave be hidden in a hf wave?

No. You can't modulate faster than half the carrier at all, or you get sideband foldover. And to get a relatively noise-free signal, 1:10 is about the limit. That's what Navy uses. That's why you see, when they depict it accurately, a sub receiving three letter code groups very slowly. You can't modulate it any faster and still have a signal. So, no, a low frequency wave cannot carry a high frequency wave.

Going the other way, you can modulate as slowly as you please - a steady carrier is effectively 0 Hz - the lowest frequency of all, it's DC. But modulation is not signal. This is another big mistake you see people like the ones in MM's links make, along with the "sound is radio" boo-boo. You'll see them say that the modulating signal is the signal being transmitted, which is just dead wrong.

Think, for example, of your local AM station. If they have dead air, they're transmitting the ELF-iest ELF of all, DC! Only they're not, you see. When you modulate a signal using AM, you're not transmitting the signal you're modulating with. The music on your AM station, or maybe Art Bell's voice, is not being transmitted as a separate intact entity. What actually happens is that you have a carrier and two sidebands above and below the carrier in frequency. So if I'm sending out a steady 1 kHz tone on an AM station at 600kHz, I'm really sending three transmissions at 599kHz, 600kHz, and 601kHz. I don't send 1 kHz at all, other than mixed up as phase, frequency and amplitude information tied up in a sideband of the original signal.

Actually after reading some more about neurological effects. I'm actually a little more concerned, than I was before. I find goggle scholar to be help with this sort of subject. I try to find legitimate sources.
Some say elf effects are inconclusive and needs more research, some claim neurological effects and cellular dysfunction and of course at places like the dept of energy etc... claim no side effects as you would expect. The truth is blurry.
It may be a leap to claim it can alter brain frequencies and thus mood keeping us from achieving higher mental states

. But it may not be such a leap to call it potentially unhealthy or maybe irresponsible.

You also get dreck on Google Scholar. If it's published by India Daily or something, it's pretty much ignorable. But consider this. One of Navy's now discontinued ELF transmitters could put out a whopping 60 Watts on average. That's after sending something like 3.85MW into the antenna system. On a good day, you might get 80 Watts if the ground moisture was just right. That's not much power at all, and that's the problem with ELF as a whole, it's not efficient to transmit, and it's not efficient to receive. You put a pile of drive into it, and only get 60W out, then lose 99.99999999999% of it on the receive end. The last types of receivers that didn't use tow lines required superconducting magnetic field sensors to pick out the H field component of the wave. And you have to have multiples of those to correlate to look for magnetic field slopes, so you can drag the signal up out of the overwhelming background magnetic noise of the Earth.

There's just not enough signal there to be an issue, if there was an issue to it, which I don't believe.

I referenced sound, because I have experimented with it, mainly using simple signal generators and meditation. You can put yourself into a theta pattern, you can get to the edge of sleep so to speak, dream but be aware.
Thanx.

There's all sorts of influences of sound on behavior at that level, sure. If I have to listen to rap, I become homicidal for instance. And you can induce panic reactions in people by saying "This is the IRS, open up!".

But these guys in MM's links are constantly confusing sound and radio, which is indicative of the depths of their ignorance. Not just them, either, it's pretty common. I think there was a thread not long ago wherein "Sorcha Faal" was trying to say that sound transmitted from a radio antenna made that bridge collapse. Durr.

[edit on 26-10-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

tom,

thankyou for your input, you sound like an intelligent bloke, thou Im wondering why are you going to such a big effort to discredit and distract this thread from the original few posts?

The thread was about the conncections between the Australian Government, Rupert Murdoch's influential ties with the Australian Government, the suspicious way the funding was arranged for his nephews company and the "real" possibility of a hidden agenda with the fast tracking of this technology without adequate scientific testing that the CSIRO had raised concerns over. They themselves said we should be careful with this technology because we do not know what ramifications we may cause.

You have almost single handedly derailed the original intenions and purpose of the thread which was to make the Australian (and others who might be interetsed) ATS members pay more attention to the back room dealings that their government is playing with.

If the CSIRO says that they themselves do not understand the repercussion this technology might have on the atmosphere, and they are government funded scientific organisation, how is it that you are such an expert on it?

Do you yourself have some involvement in HAARP or associated projects?

Or are you funded simply by the government to search conspiracy websites and discredit anyone who may be on to something and derail and/or hijack their threads?

If not, it sure seems like it and I apoligise in advance if my assumptions are incorrect.

reply to post by Tom Bedlam


Again and again you seem to jump into most any-member's groin if the subject matter's out there and firm, or even mildly opposed or against US Gov wave-line, Tom. HAARP's been in the news for at least fifteen years as the best of the worst U.S> silent weapons. By your own appearance you give that credible thought -- credibility. JL say's your disinfo, but if that's true ?, he may as well add disruptive disinfo agent.

From my un-scientific knowledge, it's, at a minimum, a weather changer machine. At worst, a mind disrupter/modifier of primates.

Dallas

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam


edit: what life-like properties of plasma? It's just gas molecules with the electrons stripped off. Like in a fluorescent light, or neon sign.

i think he is talking about cell-like strucures appearing in plasma under certain conditions, see

www.newscientist.com...


regarding ELF and 'hiding' an ELF signal. i think he would have liked to describe modulating a microwave signal in the range of a few Hz, not transmitting a lot of data on an ELF carrier.

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
tom,

thankyou for your input, you sound like an intelligent bloke, thou Im wondering why are you going to such a big effort to discredit and distract this thread from the original few posts?

damned if you do, damned if you don't. when you leave a thread alone, it's often considered defeat, if you stay people believe that you have an agenda.

the bottom line is that it's all secret, there's no oversight whatsoever, therefore, speculation is a natural consequence. they're spending a whole lot of money and effort because they at least expect some return on investment, obviously, the question is how capable these installations really are and how much it's just a matter of castles in the air.

considering how much governments trust their citizens with information, it's imho quite clear that, if disclosed, many of these projects would probably be canned, for various reasons.

PS: the quote of (former) secretary Cohen about 'eco type terrorism' frpm 1997 means nothing, because if you don't trust the established powers you can't selecttively build your case from oddball quotes. disinformation comes in many guises, the recent reference to Mr. Lear coming to my mind.


[edit on 27.10.2007 by Long Lance]

d/p

[edit on 27.10.2007 by Long Lance]

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
tom,

thankyou for your input, you sound like an intelligent bloke, thou Im wondering why are you going to such a big effort to discredit and distract this thread from the original few posts?

The thread was about the conncections between the Australian Government, Rupert Murdoch's influential ties with the Australian Government, the suspicious way the funding was arranged for his nephews company and the "real" possibility of a hidden agenda with the fast tracking of this technology without adequate scientific testing that the CSIRO had raised concerns over. They themselves said we should be careful with this technology because we do not know what ramifications we may cause.

On the contrary, the bulk of your very first pair of posts tried to draw a direct connection between HAARP and (edit: what is most likely Elate by their description of it) Elate, which have all the similarities of parakeets and cheese. You then went on to make a series of incorrect statements about HAARP, replete with links to the usual pseudo-science websites, upon which you based your thread's argument. The very title of the thread is "Australia to build HAARP facility" - no?

Let's say I created a thread on, say, how Murdoch's family was out to undermine the Australian populace by introducing di-hydrogen monoxide. If someone points out that di-hydrogen monoxide is water, then the thread's thesis fails - my point is moot. Similarly, if you construct a thread around Elate = HAARP = Evil, and not only are your statements about HAARP = Evil incorrect, but that Elate != HAARP, then your thesis fails. I don't doubt that politicians are underhanded. But what you're basing your thread on is not true, Australia is not "building a HAARP facility".

The point being, if you are claiming a conspiracy by saying Elate = scary science-y thing = HAARP; HAARP = bad; thus Murdoch & Sons are conspiring to do evil to the Australian populace, then you have any number of appropriate points of address in the thread, and not just the one I haven't bothered with. When you base (and title) your thread on a particular topic, it's not derailing to address its shortcomings.

You have almost single handedly derailed the original intenions and purpose of the thread which was to make the Australian (and others who might be interetsed) ATS members pay more attention to the back room dealings that their government is playing with.

As I just pointed out, you have several facets to your original thesis. If the focus of your back room dealings depends on an incorrect conjecture, then your thesis is wrong.

If the CSIRO says that they themselves do not understand the repercussion this technology might have on the atmosphere, and they are government funded scientific organisation, how is it that you are such an expert on it?

Are you speaking about the report by Fletcher and McCracken? I believe the statement was more along the lines of "it's not clear if it does anything" rather than "what are the repercussions". I went to the CSIRO website to get the paper, but the one I believe it's in is on a server that's down at the moment.

Do you yourself have some involvement in HAARP or associated projects?

Or are you funded simply by the government to search conspiracy websites and discredit anyone who may be on to something and derail and/or hijack their threads?

If not, it sure seems like it and I apoligise in advance if my assumptions are incorrect.

Perhaps the government agent is YOU, since you're posting misinformation?

Could it be that you're a cleverly placed Australian intelligence agent, trying to make conspiracy theorists seem loony, since you're linking to a website that gives pictorial instructions on the construction of such rubbish as "holy hand grenades"?

At any rate, no, I'm not funded by the government to 'discredit anyone who may be on to something', since in this case it's clear that you're not, at least to me. However, it may not be so clear to other ATS'ers, thus my posts.

[edit on 27-10-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

Originally posted by Dallas
reply to post by Tom Bedlam

 

Again and again you seem to jump into most any-member's groin if the subject matter's out there and firm, or even mildly opposed or against US Gov wave-line, Tom.

Hardly. I do address topics where the basic material is just incorrect and I'm at least somewhat familiar with, and this would be one.

HAARP's been in the news for at least fifteen years as the best of the worst U.S> silent weapons. By your own appearance you give that credible thought -- credibility. JL say's your disinfo, but if that's true ?, he may as well add disruptive disinfo agent.

From my un-scientific knowledge, it's, at a minimum, a weather changer machine. At worst, a mind disrupter/modifier of primates.

Dallas

But that's the point. The "in the news" bits are generally just incorrect. A lot of them are sourced by people who haven't a clue and are pretty much ungrounded in any science. It looks scary, thus it must be evil, and they proceed from there.

The problem is the one you state - un-scientific knowledge. People make up stories and pass them along, they mutate along the way, and soon it's emitting death beams and sound. It's like that game "telegraph" you might have played as a kid.

Originally posted by Long Lance

i think he is talking about cell-like strucures appearing in plasma under certain conditions...

That's mildly interesting. I'm afraid I'm with Nicolis on that. It's an interesting phenomenon but the similarities are a bit strained.

regarding ELF and 'hiding' an ELF signal. i think he would have liked to describe modulating a microwave signal in the range of a few Hz, not transmitting a lot of data on an ELF carrier.

Yeah, I addressed that too. You don't get ELF magically carried by microwaves, if you AM modulate microwaves with a low frequency signal, you'll get a carrier and two sidebands, very close in frequency to the carrier. It's a common misconception amongst the "sound = radio" crowd that the modulation is somehow transmitted intact. It's "encoded" on the sidebands and doesn't exist as such until re-constituted by the detector in the radio.

the bottom line is that it's all secret, there's no oversight whatsoever, therefore, speculation is a natural consequence.

Well, there is a lot of oversight, it's just not oversight that is published in the Congressional Record or the NY Times or what have you.

A lot of it is secret, because it has very interesting military ramifications, at least it's interesting to me, since it's mostly related to communications and radar.

Thanks for the answers Tom, and I agree with all of your points except one. I’ll just comment on a few others.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam
There really isn't enough signal left to stimulate any biological process….
….There's just not enough signal there to be an issue, if there was an issue to it, which I don't believe.

In this case there are definitely others who would disagree with you on the biology effects it would seem, I’m the first to admit I’m no expert and this area this is way out of my area of knowledge, but a small search reveals this is at the least, inconclusive..
While the neurons may not be directly affected by elf do to wavelength, some of what I found implies that the biological systems are affected, your cells, blood, and nervous system, this in turn affects your neurological processes
You'd have to agree at the very least it deserves more research.

www.buergerwelle.de...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
www.who.int...
www.blackwell-synergy.com...
www.newswise.com...
www3.interscience.wiley.com...

I think It is the subtle energy signature that is implied. I adhere to a theory that the common thread of all things is resonance, the Earth resonates with the Suns core and we in turn we resonate with it, it may have shaped evolution and all biological systems. I understand this may be considered more philosophical than scientific. From my laymen’s perspective.

www.nwbotanicals.org...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
www.surrey.ac.uk...
www.earthpulse.net...

No. You can't modulate faster than half the carrier at all, or you get sideband foldover. And to get a relatively noise-free signal, 1:10 is about the limit. That's what Navy uses. That's why you see, when they depict it accurately, a sub receiving three letter code groups very slowly. You can't modulate it any faster and still have a signal. So, no, a low frequency wave cannot carry a high frequency wave.

Thanks for the explanation. Let me clarify my question, what if it were multiple signals as in the brain or stadium crowd in your analogy, or an array of signals, is not that slow undulation of the combined signals you refer too not a frequency in itself?

There's all sorts of influences of sound on behavior at that level, sure. If I have to listen to rap, I become homicidal for instance. And you can induce panic reactions in people by saying "This is the IRS, open up!".

I agree, I wasn’t inferring mind control, only self mind control. There is some evidence to suggest biology may also be affected by sound. Ie Sonic weapons and sonic therapy. Very Interesting I think.
I understand the differences between radio and sound, Yet they are both frequencies and waves and at some basic level there is a relationship.

You also get dreck on Google Scholar. If it's published by India Daily or something, it's pretty much ignorable.

As I said I try to get good sources outside of conspiracy circles or tabloid sites. Sometimes it’s difficult to tell what’s reliable. I think most of the links here could be considered valid, some are more accepted than others. At least it should be considered in the interest of scientific curiosity.
From what I understand of them, I am an amateur at most things.

edit: what life-like properties of plasma? It's just gas molecules with the electrons stripped off. Like in a fluorescent light, or neon sign.

I do enjoy my whacky theories, I believe this is true and can be verified. It’s only the perspective that will differ. You may see what I’m suggesting.

Plasma was named so because it resembled living blood plasma by Irving Longmuir. It has been said that the universe is 99.999% (plasma. Fire, lava, lightning, the ionosphere, heliosphere, the sun, the space medium) .It has the ability to self organize into filaments and cells by way of electric currents and z pinch effects. There is evidence to suggest this self organizational process exists at even galactic scales showing signs of replication and evolution, it has been compared to biology; it might be argued that cellular structure ise synonymous with plasma double lays, circuits and oscillators etc…

scitation.aip.org...
www.electric-cosmos.org...
www.iop.org...
www.newscientist.com...

I’m not an expert in any area of science, I do love it though. I’m more of a philosopher. I'm more interested in the science that links the other sciences together, the ones to fill in the gaps, you know the big questions. It’s always controversial of course.
I’m more than willing to be corrected for the sake of learning.

Thanx. I had a lot more links but that's enough for starters, pretty tired now, this was pretty much a rush job. There is much more, the links are a bit scattered and I have only browsed them.


[edit on 27-10-2007 by squiz]

Originally posted by squiz

In this case there are definitely others who would disagree with you on the biology effects it would seem, I’m the first to admit I’m no expert and this area this is way out of my area of knowledge, but a small search reveals this is at the least, inconclusive..

Ok - on my first foray into the links you posted, they're speaking of ELF from power lines, not ELF from transmitters/HAARP/etc. I generally point out somewhere in threads like this that power lines are far larger emitters by many many orders of magnitude than HAARP.

Yes, the 60 (or 50) Hz fields from power lines are also ELF. While I think at least some of the articles post some rather implausible anecdotal evidence (Genuis), and in general I think there are studies showing both that power line ELF does and does not cause issues, depending on the study. Worse, the p scores tend to be sort of iffy both ways - maybe so, maybe no.

But for power distribution ELF, even the more ardent supporters are only claiming effects when you're under the lines or near the substations, or in situations where the magnetic fields are in the hundreds of milliGauss. The signal you're getting from Schumann's resonance or HAARP (or any of the other heaters that experiment with this) is in the tens of nanoGauss, about seven orders of magnitude smaller. If the effects are questionable for power lines, comm signals are going to be swamped by local fields that are 10 million times larger - the fields from the local radio stations, from your TV, from the guy with a CB down the street etc.

Thanks for the explanation. Let me clarify my question, what if it were multiple signals as in the brain or stadium crowd in your analogy, or an array of signals, is not that slow undulation of the combined signals you refer too not a frequency in itself?

I guess I'm still not clear on where you're going with this. The stadium crowd, responding to events on the field, will naturally rise and fall in volume with a slow periodicity related to the rhythm of the game. However, when it's radio signals you're modulating, it doesn't work quite the same way.

I understand the differences between radio and sound, Yet they are both frequencies and waves and at some basic level there is a relationship.

People think this, but it isn't true at all, other than the term "frequency" is defined the same way, yet isn't referring to any attribute but periodicity.

The Science Direct link is referring to a transduction phenomenon.

I do enjoy my whacky theories, I believe this is true and can be verified. It’s only the perspective that will differ. You may see what I’m suggesting.

I knew that it could show these behaviors, but never considered that behavior as similar to membranes and cells. I think the analogy might be a bit strained but I can see where it comes from.

Originally posted by Long Lance

the bottom line is that it's all secret, there's no oversight whatsoever, therefore, speculation is a natural consequence. they're spending a whole lot of money and effort because they at least expect some return on investment, obviously, the question is how capable these installations really are and how much it's just a matter of castles in the air.

Hey, weird serendipity, someone emailed me a link to a doctoral thesis written by one of the guys from Stanford doing research at HAARP, on the very topic we're discussing.

Linky

It's a bit thick, so I'm not sure what you'll get from it, but it's detailed and addresses generation of ELF/VLF from the electrojet, with all the math and bibliography you could ask for.

Originally posted by Tom Bedlam

Yeah, I addressed that too. You don't get ELF magically carried by microwaves, if you AM modulate microwaves with a low frequency signal, you'll get a carrier and two sidebands, very close in frequency to the carrier.

if the envelope looks like an ELF wave, the you've just found how to use microwaves,, which can be produced efficiently and easily focused, to beam a given signal at an individual target (core MC requirement, imho), at which point all that's left to prove would be the suspected physiological effects. a good place to start would of course be direct electrical stimulation of the brain, because that's where people start, naturally, hence my Delgado reference. now, tbh, i have no idea if i'm trying to elaborate my point or squiz', but the whole setup moves from 'totally out of whack' to 'faint possibility', depending on scale of course.


since this thread appears to be about top secret installations far away in the desert and not about mind control modded cellphone towers, i'll have to leave it at that.

Originally posted by Long Lance

if the envelope looks like an ELF wave, the you've just found how to use microwaves,, which can be produced efficiently and easily focused, to beam a given signal at an individual target

Yeah, that's what they try to sell you but it really doesn't work that way.

First, the entire envelope thing is a fiction for simplifying the concept of radio detection for technicians. What's really there are sidebands and a carrier (or just sidebands, if it's a carrier-suppressed transmission form).

Second, it's still not ELF. It's just an amplitude variation of a high frequency signal. For example, your local AM station that airs Art Bell - do you hear that voice just by using a keen ear? No, it takes a radio. Yet, you are "bombarded" by the radio station's output. Why can't you just hear it, after all, it's "modulated onto the envelope"? Because modulation isn't signal. Art's voice doesn't exactly exist except as a mathematical fiction held by the sidebands and the carrier. It's only when you multiply them together in the detector that the audio signal re-emerges.

If I had a light dimmer, if I ran the brightness of the light up and down, that too would be EM "modulated by an envelope"...but it's still not ELF.



[edit on 27-10-2007 by Tom Bedlam]

What I do remember about HAARP is that during the big blackout on the east coast the systems that are available to the public showed no information for the coming days of the blackout...the days of the blackout and the days after.

Here's the link to the exact date of the blackout Aug 14 2003.

137.229.36.30...

I still believe that that day was a test of what HAARP can do outside of the public eye.

Edit, I've come to see that HAARP has taken out there information months prior and after. That I don't remember happening at the time.

[edit on 27-10-2007 by Tomis_Nexis]

Tom, you seemed to have missed my point, my apologies for not making it clearer.
The electrical activity in the body is linked with that of earths, this is only natural, it evolved with it, our chemical make up is of the earth.
The earths resonance, resonating from the Sun drowned out by all the other man made signals?
I don't think so. Only on instruments used to measure. Although this is why many feel lost and disconnected, not being able to resonate with the natural ELF waves because of em pollution.
Get out of the city, into nature and feel the difference. That's natures natural rhythm.
We are tuned to it's frequency from millions of years of evolution.
The correlation between brain wave patterns and Schumann resonance is no coincidence.
The processes of the effect appear to be by the way of transduction and not direct.

The contingency of variations in amplitude—frequency parameters of the main modes of extremely-low-frequency resonances of an ionospheric waveguide (Schumann resonances) and changes in human encephalograms in the frequency range of 6–16 Hz has been studied. The results obtained with the use of synchronized monitoring suggest that such contingency, expressed as indices of cross-correlation function, is statistically significant, varying from 0.12 to 0.65 at α = 0.95. It has been established that contingency is largely determined by the current level of solar and geomagnetic activity.

www.springerlink.com...

This link presents clearly my point of view in simple terms. This is the heart of the matter.
The Schumann resonance and Human Psychobiology.

I understand the differences between radio and sound, Yet they are both frequencies and waves and at some basic level there is a relationship.....

People think this, but it isn't true at all, other than the term "frequency" is defined the same way, yet isn't referring to any attribute but periodicity....

That's the basic relationship I was talking about.

On Plasma,

I knew that it could show these behaviors, but never considered that behavior as similar to membranes and cells. I think the analogy might be a bit strained but I can see where it comes from.

Bio-Plasma Physics

I realize that whatever link I post, even from any neurologist or biologist, you'd still find flaw in it. Which was expected. I think a large part of the problem with science is it has become segregated to the point that experts in one field have no idea what the other sciences are up too, to the detriment of the big picture.
At least I could convince you plasma does not just exist in a neon tube, so now you know what the universe is made out of.


[edit on 27-10-2007 by squiz]

Booha, either way i dont like my tax dollars being handed over to Murdochs relos for something that isnt founded to actually work. Either way its all rather smelly and the potential is there for it to be tweaked in the future to interfere with things it originally wasnt designed for.


As an Australian I can understand why MM questioned the motives of the people behind the plan.

I live in a supposed drought area, it rains here, it rains alot its just all the water goes down the storm water pipes. If we collected the rain we wouldnt have the problems they tell us we have. Heck they even cloud seed here for no reason(thats a conspiracy not even i will go near).

Most of it is scare mongering so we have to pay big bucks for our water and so the Macquarie bank can build water deslaination plants.

Macquarie bank is behind it all, our environment minister Malcolm Turnbull was a founder of Macquarie bank and gives his mates lurks and perks.

Watching Alex Jones End Game, they were even mentioned in that. Macquarie bank likes to toll our roads here i didnt know they were doing it in the states as well. The people along the super highway in Texas were starting to get shirty over it and so was the local press. Our Macquarie bank went and brought up every newspaper along the corridor and hushed the issue. How bloody nice of them, makes you a proud Australian.

So our environmental minister is helping bring on the NAU and you wonder why good aussies like MM and myself cant help but question the motives of the people involved.

Before the more reliable communications offered by satellite, the common method of communications beyond the horizon was to bounce a signal off the lower edge of the ionosphere, as is still done by most nation's shortwave outlets and ham radio operators to this day.

However, the ionosphere's ability to reflect radio signals is often disrupted by auroras, sunspots, etc, that energize the usually quiet reflective layer and cause it to absorb, rather than reflect radio waves, thus disrupting radio communications based on this reflectivity.

Now if I was a NWO, I would control the communications satellites and thus who could use them. The only option for communications around the world between any anti-NWO groups or forces would be the old ionosphere-reflective layer using free radio waves. How do I control this? Pump large amounts of RF energy into this layer, creating artificial aurora/sunspot conditions that disrupt over-the-horizon radio communications. Build a facility to experiment with it, and if it works, build 'em around the world for maximum effect.

I don't believe it has anything to do with weather.

is it my imagination or did we have rain....rain, actual real rain up and down the entire eastern seaboard??? havent seen that happen since i was a kid!!!!!!!! Possibilities their little inovations may be at work already????

reply to post by squiz


I absolutley enjoyed reading the information you posted.


Granted I knew more or less of the universe but it's HAARP's intentions that keep throwing me off.

But wouldn't it be possible to "crank" the "system" of HAARP to such a high volume that it could possibly "fry" let's say, the Niagra Falls plant?


I appreciated what you mentioned about people feeling disconnected yet when they are outside the city, the true mentality and feelings emerge. Nature, surround by what we are, organics, the world and the energies emerging from nature...the city, the concrete jungle, gloomy negative, no sign of nature, no sigh of energy, disconnected from oneself.

I apologize, I'm all over the place right now.

Excellent post Squiz

Originally posted by squiz
Tom, you seemed to have missed my point, my apologies for not making it clearer.
The electrical activity in the body is linked with that of earths, this is only natural, it evolved with it, our chemical make up is of the earth.

I agree with the chemical makeup, but electrical, no. The chemical makeup is similar, because that's what evolution had to work with. It's hard to use a lot of Nobelium when it's so short-lived, for example. But if I cruelly distill some sea water, it doesn't affect my biology to do so. That's my point. These are meaningless correlations of attributes.

The earths resonance, resonating from the Sun drowned out by all the other man made signals?
I don't think so. Only on instruments used to measure. Although this is why many feel lost and disconnected, not being able to resonate with the natural ELF waves because of em pollution.

You don't "resonate" with it - there isn't any resonant structure there. Any more than, say, a hummingbird's wings "resonate" with it. Or drops of water from a roof, or any other phenomenon with similar periodicity, because periodicity is nothing more than an attribute. You seem to be looking for some mystic symbolism here, but there's really not any. Besides which, it's nothing more than a low frequency signal - a constant drone if you will, and one you're not very closely coupled to. I feel you may be using a popular definition of 'resonance' but are trying to use that in a technical area. This comes up a LOT on ATS, and it really doesn't work. Resonance has a strict definition in physics which it doesn't in philosophy...as long as the two stay fairly segregated it's not an issue. But you can't use the term from comm theory and try to link it to the theosophic or philosophical one and get anything but semantic discord, I'm afraid.

At any rate, if your "resonance" reacts to picoTeslas of field, then how is it not swamped by milliTeslas of ambient signal from technology? It's like saying you can hear distant cricket chirps with your head in a jet turbine at full throttle. It's a basic SINAD problem - you can't hear signals buried under sufficient noise, and in this case there's not only man-made but plenty of natural EM noise.

Get out of the city, into nature and feel the difference. That's natures natural rhythm.
We are tuned to it's frequency from millions of years of evolution.

Is that why life is so short amongst non-developed tribal people like the San?

I hear you, but I think you've got a touch of Rousseau's "noble savage" thing going on which I don't agree with. Living in the woods for six weeks at a whack eating whatever's there for the last three and no baths makes Tom a stinky boy, instead of noble and in tune with Nature. Give it a try sometime, just you and a poncho liner, whatever you can fit in a light ruck and on your LBE, and Nature. Only make it an extended visit. It's a lot less wonderful than you'd think. You'll be wanting to re-establish a rhythm with a steak, a hot shower, soap, and a bed. And apples. For some reason, I want apples the entire time. Perhaps I was a horse last go-around.

This link presents clearly my point of view in simple terms. This is the heart of the matter.

Nexus? Pretty much any link that relies on references to psychics as corroborating evidence isn't going to work for me. I'm just picky that way. The other link was mildly interesting, there are two or three like it, but not much in the way of anyone bothering to try replicating them.

That's the basic relationship I was talking about.

um, ok, but it's not really a relationship. If it works for you that some things happen at the same rates per unit time, and that somehow connects them for you, then ok, but it's not a science thing, it's more religion, or magic. Again, it's like saying that two things the same color or weight somehow affect each other, and it's just not true.

At least I could convince you plasma does not just exist in a neon tube, so now you know what the universe is made out of.

If I could only convince you that it is by definition, nothing more than a gas with its electrons stripped off, you'd know what plasma WAS. It's much less mystic and more material than you'd like, I fear. Oh, and looking around, most everything I see is NOT plasma. So there's your white crow, I guess.