Why sleeper?

Originally posted by johnlear
Sleeper, forgive jritzmann, he knows not what he says.

Oh, but he does! Both Lear and sleeper have this 1950s view of the nature of the solar system. It's as if Adamski were reincarnated and writing again, forgetting that time has passed and that we know a lot more about the nature of our solar system than we did when he first wrote. The similarities are so vast that it would take too long to cite them all here. Perhaps on my blog...

In the fifties we were entertained with science fiction stories from people like Ray Bradbury, who wrote The Martian Chronicles about Martian civilization, golden bees, and the city that tinkled. Unlike sleeper, Bradbury never presented his stories as fact. He knew they were fiction and presented them as such. They have withstood the test of time. They're still good stories. Highly recommended.

And in the fifties we also had the beginning of the 'extra-terrestrial contact movement' with Adamski, Bethurum, Fry, and others claiming they went on board flying saucers and traipsed about the solar system, landing on planets like Venus where they met beautiful women, particularly, and were greeted by advanced human civilizations. Bethurum is really my favorite. His lady love, with whom he was reportedly obsessed, was Aura Rhanes, a hot Latin-looking woman who had a full figure and was a flashy dresser. Adamski met absolutely beautiful women on his trips, too, from Saturn and Jupiter, especially.

sleeper has a more modern version of this. His beautiful woman has a mission. She's actually a 'sperm extractor' who periodically 'takes samples' for genetic experiments. sleeper can't resist her (and has said so. You HAVE read his blog, haven't you?) I can actually see this definition of "woman" given the inevitability of complying with her mission once in her arms. "You know you want to," she said to him. Of course, he complied. Might not you as well, particularly if you could claim coercion? It wasn't really your fault. She had a spell on you. Aliens can do that.

In any event sleeper has his imaginary friiend, Milton, kind of like the six foot tall rabbit named Harvey, who is also a repository of sorts, the being who tells us god-like how to live. And though he is a slippery devil of a guy who can't seem to show himself, his message is not all that bad, is it? Aren't his admonitions on how to live life mostly reasonable?

We have both Lear and sleeper insisting that the other planets all have atmospheres and human civilizations, even the gas giants. When it is pointed out that our probes, landers, and cameras say otherwise we are told it is all a big government/NASA conspiracy. There are a few credulous people who will jump on board immediately with this sort of 'information,' but most will find it laughable. In any case, you can see why Lear and sleeper have an affinity for one another.

The issue of both Lear and sleeper on ATS is a really slippery one. Given the site's motto of "Deny Ignorance," one wonders why they are tolerated. The only way to explain the situation is to throw out the motto and look at the reality. We've had other people show up here, claim landing lights were aliens from space, and be summarily banned for perpetraing a hoax in hopes of selling DVDs. Here's an example. These two cases are so similar that it appears to be splitting hairs to claim they are different. Alas, they are. sleeper is quite careful to NEVER claim something that can be disproved. His facts are far too slippery for that, taking refuge in telepathic conversation and shadowy appearances. It's very much like the Nigerian 419 scam. Once someone bites on the possibility of millions, they are drawn slowly closer to paying the fees, but the money, like Milton, never quite appears. You can paint a portrait of Harvey, but only one guy can actually see him.

Lear is similar in his approach. He NEVER insists that his outlandish theories are reality. It's his BELIEF that they are. That's a pretty strong word to hide behind, but not all that unusual, is it? And where sleeper loses his temper now and again, Lear is almost always polite and respectful, the avuncular elder statesman secure in his fantasyland reality, lovingly tolerating us mere mortals from a lofty height. Thus, in a backhanded way, T&C are met; moderators are supportive of both, and the conversation continues: Five points for every reply, negative or positive.

And isn't that the real point here? A lively conversation attracts attention. Attention drives up the numbers. Just click on the items below: Demographics, Statistics, Media Kit, About. It's no secret; it should be obvious. Traffic. Numbers. Buzz. Millions and millions of hits, visitors, media attention. (The statistics don't hold up to analysis, by the way, but that's perhaps fodder for another thread.) If the site actually did 'deny ignorance,' it wouldn't have nearly the traffic it does. Although ATS would like to see itself with a reputation as good as a peer-reviewed academic journal like Nature, ATS is in fact the internet equivalent to The National Enquirer, uh, in my humble opinion. Once you realize that's where you are, in the supermarket checkout line drawn to lurid tabloid headlines that have about as much connection to reality as Michael Jackson or Tom Cruise, then the silliness and contradictory nature of the site is easier to take.

The foregoing is just my opinion and belief. I do not insist upon it as reality. Your mileage may vary. Void where prohibted by law. Thank you so much for your post. It is much appreciated. My take on the nature of reality is probably not true. You may have other rights that vary from state to state so this disclaimer may not apply to you.


[edit on 10/18/2007 by schuyler]

You go sleeper! Like I have said to you before, lets just ignore the ignoramuses and continue to discuss this most interesting of subjects in a subjective clear and concise manner. You have been given the green light unlike most and I think it is simply because you do not bother to compromise what you know to be the truth. I support you 100%.

reply to post by schuyler


I'd like to announce the formation of the "Draft Schuyler (like Skiler) For President" movement. U2U me to have further enquiries ignored.

reply to post by schuyler


Nah...you wouldnt write articles for a tabloid, would you?

reply to post by SonicInfinity


I have not read enough of Sleeper or John Lear to be able to speak conclusively about either, although being conclusive of most things, I've found, is usually a recipe for winding up with cosmic egg on your face.

However, with what little I've read from both of these members, I do not sense that they are worthy of my time. The former may be a philosopher or theoretician, but most of his/her posts don't compel me to believe, just because he/she can spin the, occasional, interesting yarn. And the latter tends to offer some rationale, but my instincts tell me to stear clear of Lear.

Ironically, my reasons for not believing either of these individuals, completely, is not based upon anything more than they, too, offer by way of their personally purported "wealth" of experience and logic as to why anyone should follow them.

Sometimes, we're faced with a decision based solely upon our gut reaction, especially when we have insufficient data and only speculation provided as alleged truth from those who would try to convince us that they know better. Then, they condescend while patting our little heads and smiling down at us like the ignorant children they perceive us to be. This, in and of itself, is one reason why I will disregard most "authorities."

While I don't mind an interesting story, from time to time, I would prefer not having to read well into a thread to discover its hollow core. Usually, this isn't necessary and I can dispense with most threads from the Original Post and, sometimes, just the title. While even a charlatan, disinfo agent or a hopeless wanna-believer on any subject can share a "truth" or write some intriguing logic to justify their position, it usually devolves, quickly, and crashes and burns beneath the glare of my gaze.

I would prefer to go to a website that I knew had only hard, scientific and verifiable data, but these are few and far between and even the, alleged, scientific and news sources have purposefully misinformed, misdirected and lied to the public...simply because they can. I am not a researcher, physicist or field technician with either experience, knowledge or the equipment to do all my own studies to disprove the bulk of the bunk that permeates our perception on this planet.

So, I rely upon my instincts. I may be wrong about anything and everything, but if I smell smoke, then I'm searching for fire, because something's burning. With both Sleeper & Lear, I smell smoke. That doesn't mean I don't wish them well - or want them to be ostracized. I would prefer many threads being in Skunkworks, however, and not just from these members.

There are a lot of B.S. piles to avoid while traversing your path. You may have to squeeze a lot of mud to find the few sapphires hidden within. If you're only here for the story, then enjoy and play nicely, but if you want me to provide definitive proof that either of these members are "wrong," then I have none. That still doesn't mean that I will kiss their rings and follow them, blindly, wherever their piping may lead.

namaste

[edit on 18-10-2007 by katmandu]

[edit on 18-10-2007 by katmandu]

I believe his thread started off very well because in his blog story thing..from my point of view and my own opinion and why it sparked my interests were it hit on religion which is has always been the leading topic since our ancestors.

also it hits on one of the main topics discussed on ATS: Aliens.

Religion + Aliens = +

Originally posted by dntwastetime
OP I think your just jealous of Sleeper, because he has many friends on ATS, as well as many many ATS points. I think your jealous that John Lear endorses him and talks about him instead of you.If I was a new member with very little input into this site, I would not be so fast to attack mega members like sleeper.Who are you to say he is not who he says he is? You have like 10 points, I do not think thats enough posting experiance to go shooting off your trap.Your lack of points, and posting input shows limited knowledge to me, and therefore I simply graze past your words.

Originally posted by Springer
This reeks of jealousy of sleeper's popularity which happened ALL BY ITSELF with ZERO "help" from the staff. It amazes me how people assume sleeper must have got some "special treatment" in order for his thread to have grown so large. I guess it helps them rationalize why their thread didn't? Who cares? Threads are strange entities, Ive seen some I thought would go away with barely a reply grow to astronomical size and I've seen others I thought were brilliant fizzle out very quickly. That's what happens when the PEOPLE (Membership) drive the content.

Maybe, just maybe sleeper hits a chord with certain people. Maybe, just maybe he is a good writer and people enjoy having a friendly conversation about the amazing possibilities of what he presents.

Nah, couldn't be that simple could it? Well, IT IS that simple...

Springer...

The jealousy card. I knew that was going to pop up at some point.

If I was jealous of sleeper, I would be attacking him in his thread, trying to smear his claims, and making a topic of my own to outdo him. As human beings, I believe that we are equal, and for anybody to get special treatment just for being popular doesn't really click with me. Even if sleeper could have Milton use a "switch popularity" beam on him and me, it would make no difference, so no, I'm not jealous of him.

Originally posted by Springer
You make lots of FALSE assumptions in your opening post. Why would we have deleted or moved anyone else's post? We didn't know who sleeper was at all when he started his thread.

I never accused you of deleting or moving anybody else's post because I have yet to see anybody do what sleeper has (which is surprising). If somebody who joined less than a month ago put out a claim on this board about aliens and made his story as detailed, if not more so, that sleeper's, would you let it stay on the forum, or would you move it to the Skunk Works/General Forum?

[edit on 10/18/2007 by SonicInfinity]

reply to post by schuyler


An excellent post and it echoes my opinion about this and most sites, as well.

While I would prefer to do without the trash tabloidism that our "modern" society thrives upon, I have resigned myself to accepting that looky-loos will always slow down at car accidents, thus making the commute home for the rest of us an unbearable snail's pace.

Just because an infant will be ecstatically mesmerized by the colorful mobile spinning above its crib, and be oblivious to its own erection, doesn't interest me one iota when all I'm trying to do is change its stinky diaper as it pees in my face. [A true story involving no aliens]

I love my children and I appreciate their insatiable curiosity - honoring their fascination with discovery - but sometimes I just want to take care of business and get back to my game. Thankfully, my children are all grown, but I find that life still gives it to me in the face and some of it smells like s**t.

Sadly, it is the older children's fascination with their own erections that they think should be flaunted and shared with the world, simply because their egos need a stroke. I say, stroke that thing in private and give me some hard facts, please.

Here's mud in yer eye!

namaste

Sleeper seems like a genuine person, and I think he may have experienced something. Although, I became highly suspect when he declared he had once worked for black ops.

Originally posted by Implosion

Originally posted by lee anoma
After reading some of Sleeper's blog regarding his personal account with his alien friend Milton and realizing it was in screenplay format I just couldn't help remembering that line. Why is it in screenplay format anyway?

It isn't. It may be presented as a screenplay, but it certainly isn't written as one.

Yes it is.

How can it be presented as a screenplay and not be in a screenplay format?

INT. QUARANTINE ROOM INSIDE ALIEN SHIP -- CONTINUOUS

Mike is standing upright but not touching the floor---he remains unconscious and appears frozen with his arms at his sides as if he was standing at attention.

(snip)

MILTON
Wake up Michael. (Milton telepathically talking to Mike from an unknown location on the ship)

Mike upon hearing Milton's command instantly opens his eyes and is fully conscious.

MIKE
Were am I?

MILTON
You are in my ship

Sleepers Blog

It's slightly off by certain rules but for all intents and purposes that is clearly meant to be in a screenplay format. He specifically chose to use those elements so I can assume he's thinking of this in terms of some sort of play.

I think you're splitting hairs a bit here.

I don't quite understand why there's such a discussion on sleeper. He is a person, like all of you. He has had contact with beings, like everyone else here can but probably closed themselves off to that experience as it doesn't fit your worldview.

His story is very personal, as are all contact experience. I have a fair share of my own, but for the sake of not derailing this thread I will not divulge. Does personal experience say nothing of 'proof' anymore? Have people on ATS (supposedly researching all areas of conspiracy topics) become so conditioned by the society they live in that a completely reasonable story will be dismissed so easily?

I challenge you to question your motives in writing such attacks, no matter from what standpoint.

WHO are you to judge? Are you some perfect being that has come down to us with great wisdom and knowledge to grant us lower earthlings?

Sleeper has a story to share, so let him share it. Most of us will try not to bite your head off if you sound sincere.

For those of you who took personal rips, I hope you think twice next time. You may be the one receiving the short end of the stick not too long from now.

To John Lear, sleeper, and other contactees: Keep up the good work, people need to know that reality is not what the 'corporate controlled media' tells them it is. Nor 100% true from our standpoint either.

That's the beauty of it. No one has the absolute truth. We are only given portions and even then they're not complete. It takes a lifetime to put the puzzle together. On your death bed you still won't know what the meaning of life is.

So stop worrying about things that don't matter and live your own lives. Get a clue.

Originally posted by schuyler

ATS is in fact the internet equivalent to The National Enquirer, uh, in my humble opinion. Once you realize that's where you are, in the supermarket checkout line drawn to lurid tabloid headlines that have about as much connection to reality as Michael Jackson or Tom Cruise, then the silliness and contradictory nature of the site is easier to take.

Thanks for the post schuyler. I would take issue with your statement that the National Enquirer has "lurid tabloid headlines that have as much connection to reality as Michael Jackson or TomCruise."

I never miss an issue myself even though the price recently went to almost $4. Small price I think to find out so many interesting stories about life, the world and Hollywood. I pass it on to my wife and daughter who wouldn't be 'caught dead" buying it themselves but are as eager to read it as I am.

Often somebody who knows me will say "Why do you read that trash?" And I ask them why they think its trash. They respond that "well everybody knows its all bs. They're just trying to sell magazines." I patiently explain that the National Enquirer is one of the leading investigatory magazines in the nation and was written about in the New York Times, October 24, 1994 in an article by DAVID MARGOLICK:

query.nytimes.com...

The National Enquirer investigative team was the one the photos of O.J. wearing the Bruno Magli shoes.

Occasionally the National Enquirer gets it wrong and prints a retraction like in the Britney Spears case.

But that is the exception. The National Enquirer reporting is usually dead on accurate.

Some of those less informed than some of the rest of us think that the National Enquirer prints stories about aliens and flying saucers.

I don’t believe I have read any such stories in the National Enquirer since Bob Pratt left many, many years ago.

So schuyler, your statement “Once you realize that's where you are, in the supermarket checkout line drawn to lurid tabloid headlines that have about as much connection to reality as Michael Jackson or Tom Cruise, then the silliness and contradictory nature of the site is easier to take” is sadly lacking in background, foundation and accuracy. Again.

But it is no less appreciated. :

reply to post by tommyknockers


hi , based on your stated opinion - will you please invest $1 million USD in my scheme to recover the treasure of the Oak island money pit

you know it makes sense - it is there , there was the famed inscription :

"forty feet below, two million pounds lie buried."

what more do you want ?

PS - i offer no other evidence , i will not tell you how i am going to suceed where every one else has failed , or how i will dispose of your investment

but you must trust me , i know what i am doing - its all true - i believe it - and my mate notlim is supplying me secret info - and NO you cannot meet notlim , only read my transcripts of what he tells me

ok - i am taking the piss - but that parody makes as much sense as belief in sleeper / milton

Sleeper sparking not only a long debate on his own thread but also an entire anti-sleeper thread, he must be interesting.

Furthermore, as much as I enjoyed schuylers post, ATS is not the equivalent to National Inquirer...ATS is what YOU make of it (what you choose to look at, what you choose to write, who you choose to talk to). Schuyler wouldnt be writing any articles here if this were only a tabloid.

The sleeper-thread is of the UFO/Metaphysical Department as you find it in plenty of bookstores around the globe. Any UFO-Themend Forum needs one of these too. Period.

Sleeper has tried to give you clues to your being, if you are to deny ones existance what are you doing to your own. It is that simple. Awaken, become aware. Nothing in this world is as it seems, don't let technological perspectives intervenE on the spiritual level, they are co-creators with each other. The non physical has laws as does the physical. But when the physical body merges with spirit, all things are possible.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I'm not seeing the "anti-sleeper" part. I see some critical views of sleeper....understandable, given he is a published author and should be held to some kind of critical review. I see some suggestions that his posts should be taken with a grain of salt. The strongest suggestion I've seen in this thread is that his threads should be in Skunkworks.

Overall, the harshest words seem to come from "supporters".

I like Schuyler's analogy to The National Enquirer.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
His story is very personal, as are all contact experience. I have a fair share of my own, but for the sake of not derailing this thread I will not divulge. Does personal experience say nothing of 'proof' anymore? Have people on ATS (supposedly researching all areas of conspiracy topics) become so conditioned by the society they live in that a completely reasonable story will be dismissed so easily?

For some, yes, but for most of us, it's the fact that we've seen so many stories that you can never define which ones are real and imaginary unless you have some sort of swaying point. sleeper's stories seem similar to other individual's, and without any proof one way or the other, it's just that -- a story -- and it has no place in a forum which is, hopefully, supposed to be based on facts. It should belong in Skunk Works or General.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
I challenge you to question your motives in writing such attacks, no matter from what standpoint.

WHO are you to judge? Are you some perfect being that has come down to us with great wisdom and knowledge to grant us lower earthlings?

Why yes, I am. My name is Epicron from the Star System Sirius, coming to warn you of terrible things to come on Planet Earth. Famines, Nuclear Wars, Mind Control -- and that's only the beginning. Just wait until President Bush gets his hands on the red button. ^_~

Originally posted by biggie smalls
Sleeper has a story to share, so let him share it. Most of us will try not to bite your head off if you sound sincere.

For those of you who took personal rips, I hope you think twice next time. You may be the one receiving the short end of the stick not too long from now.

Then let him tell it in a more suited forum. We need to keep this forum as factual as possible.

Originally posted by Springer
reply to post by SonicInfinity

 

You make lots of FALSE assumptions in your opening post. Why would we have deleted or moved anyone else's post? We didn't know who sleeper was at all when he started his thread.

This reeks of jealousy of sleeper's popularity...(snip)

When I first noticed the thread topic I involuntarily rolled my eyes thinking "Why a freaking thread about sleeper?" And though I've certainly stopped bothering to comment on whether or not people should believe stories from sleeper and his likes around here, I just have say something.

Like the thread author correctly pointed out, he never falsely accused the ats staff of deleting anyones posts nor helping said member in any way. And what's with that little implication of jealousy?

Just a wee bit defensive there eh Springer? Or maybe you were replying to a different thread?

IMHO, to scrutinize is the very essence of being a rational and thinking individual. And isn't it the basis of denying ignorance? I'd say in this case, scrutiny is certainly called for.

And I have to agree on schuyler's National Enquirer analogy.


EDIT: Well it seems I've pretty much written a carbon copy of MrPenny's post. Great minds think alike, eh?



[edit on 18-10-2007 by Durden]

reply to post by MrPenny


Im neither pro nor con. I havent even read sleepers thread. But what I am entertained by the fact that he gains so much attention that even an entire anti-thread sparks lively debate (not that any of us necessarily need an extra thread to "explain" another thread for us).

I wouldnt liken ATS to a tabloid, I would compare it with a supermarket...in which you dont go in and choose all the junk, but only what YOU WANT. There are thousands of discussions to choose from, millions of people to talk to. I am responsible for what I choose. Nobody is forcing me to choose anything.

ATS is debaters-paradise...talk about anything with anyone.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
ATS is debaters-paradise...talk about anything with anyone.

No, it's not. Introducing contrary views, revealing a source's weakness, or refuting a poster's opinion is usually met with stony indifference, a total lack of response, condemnation, condescenscion, hostility, or, my favorite, "unctuous snottiness".

Most of the content here is fallacious arguments, weak logic, assumptions, and generalizations. A Magic 8 Ball is a better debater than many of the posters here. Where is the "intelligent discussion"?