Warning: Revelations

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by whirlwind

 

You realize you worship an extortionist, right? The basic tenet is that, from the moment of your conception, you have been damned by god, and only through worshipping hte god that damned you, will you be "Saved"?

You are mistaken!

I understand why you say what you do but you should leave man's idea of religion behind and follow Christ.

I don't see how anyone ever fell for the idea of a new born being "born in sin." It seems we simply take the word of those in authority and it is a mistake.

No one is damned because of what happened in the garden but we are all sinners. God sent His Son and if we believe in Him and repent then those sins are forgiven. I wouldn't call that being an extortionist.

He just wants your love.....Is that so much to ask?


............Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


Christ is a man made religion though, as I already mentioned Jesus was the son of man and not the product of the God that exists at the edge of the universe.

Yeah Jesus was probably a nice bloke and had some great idea's and more importantly was a great carpenter and fisherman, but sadly he died a long time ago (twice)...

Personally, I believe that if God ever sent a 'son' down to earth, we wouldn't be able to look 'it' in the eye as our brains would not be able to comprehend what we would be seeing.

It wouldn't look human for a start. It would be made out light and would be both 'timeless' and 'sexless'.

You know people , when I clicked on this thread , I really thought I was going to read about the book of Revelation and the prophey's therin.

These thread's always start of with a discussion about the topic and someone comes along and say's your whole logic is off track, and you don't believe in the right version( and sometimes very distorted version) of what God IS.

Why can't we just discuss the Book of Revelation and the content therin without a God exists, and God doesn't exist arguement? So what if the other person thinks God is an alien.
So what if another think's God doesn't exist. The discusion at hand is about the prophecy and events written in the book of Revelation.

So the book was written by a man. The Christian believes he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Other's believe his writtings were based off other earlier writtings. Some believe He was exposed to mold's and spores that live in caves, where it is said that He had these vision's.

Whatever the case, what about the conent's? How plausible is it for the event's to happen? Have any of them come to pass? These are the question's we should be asking and discussing. Not the existence of God. Their is plenty of those if you want to talk about that subject.

I feel like humans in their form now are stupid. What I mean is that things repeat themsleves. We don't have enough going in the right direction here to change history. Not now anyway. So I don't feel like the Book of Revelation is a prophecy. more like a repetition of how stupid man is.

Now I don't consider intelliegence when I say stupid. I consider EGO, the denial of things bigger than self, the skepticism concerning otherworldly beings, and the denial of the direction that we are headed.

If God did give us that book as a sign of things to come, It's not a prophecy. it's a given. The sun will set. You will die at some point. Those aren't prophecies. Just a reminder that every few years in GOD time these things come to pass. What was history before the Bible? nothing existed besides the human form? What about the war in heaven? So before us it was just heaven and nothing?

Hmmm...

I think we must be talking about a different God.

My god is sexless, has no emotions and its power far exceeds the words in a dated book.

There is only one God.

I think the 'Satan' you refer to is actually the entity Lucifer, which isn't a devil but a fallen 'angel' (a being that exists in a pocket dimension that behaves in similar ways to light - although far more intelligent).

God has fought off other would be rivals, but inflicted no harm.... Just cast them out into a subplane (like hades or hell for instance)...

Satan is Lucifer. He is a fallen angel, actually THE fallen angel.

The deaths on earth are a result of war (usually down to religion or territory) or disease, God played no part in that.... that was mankind and mother nature (a seperate entity that control the forces of the weather and such, some believe she lives in the moon - and she is a very posessive, jealous being).

Many deaths are a result of war and many of the wars are caused by religion. God played a part in some of them.

I don't understand your reference to mother nature at all.

'It' (God) also switches off on a Sunday (according to a book I once read).

God gave us the seventh day as a day of rest (that day is Saturday).....He doesn't shut off.



.............Whirlwind

reply to post by whirlwind


Do tell. Why does your god need my love? Does he not get enough hugs from you folks, that he has to shop around? He sounds emotionally fragile. I don't date needy people, and I'm not about to commit to a needy god. I prefer the mutual respect relationship I have with the ones I've got already. Thanks, though.

Originally posted by BlackProjects
reply to post by 1337cshacker

 

Nice thread..I hadn't come across this link but like it very much. Too many are willing to believe every wild theory except those from the Bible. The reason for this is there is an adversary- the devil who is hard at work deceiving.

Quite true.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by 1337cshacker

 

sorry, but your baseless assumption that your end of the world myth is true and your "warning" that it will happen really won't be messing with my day.

Baseless? Get off. I know it won't be messing with your day, that is not my intention. My intention is to minimize, if only a few, the number deceived by satan.

Originally posted by Hallberg Rassy


Revelations is not a stand alone book, it is copied from far earlier writings that date back a thousand years, borrowed, stolen, plagiarized from roman and greek writings. They are part delphic oracle, part sibylline books, etc... Take the time to research where something comes from before attempting to understnad what the symbols stand for.

It was written by john, and by john alone. It was not borrowed nor copied from any other work. Some have only speculated this because it is similar to other doomsday prophecies, if anything, it gives it merrit. As if the words "Holy Bible" on the front don't give it enough. I have spent a few years looking at this last book, researching it, and have come across what you say. The difference is, I know why it is 'they' say what you say.

Indeed....

Originally posted by mr-lizard
reply to post by whirlwind

 

Christ is a man made religion though, as I already mentioned Jesus was the son of man and not the product of the God that exists at the edge of the universe.

Yeah Jesus was probably a nice bloke and had some great idea's and more importantly was a great carpenter and fisherman, but sadly he died a long time ago (twice)...

Personally, I believe that if God ever sent a 'son' down to earth, we wouldn't be able to look 'it' in the eye as our brains would not be able to comprehend what we would be seeing.

It wouldn't look human for a start. It would be made out light and would be both 'timeless' and 'sexless'.

Not true. I'm not here to argue if Christ is divine (he is) or if he was the messiah sent by god (he was). He was sent to us in the flesh. Jesus knew blasphemy, and would not say he was Christ if it were wrong. He was born of man, but did not have original sin, because he was born enlightened. Get off of this please, and keep your disbelief to yourself.

Originally posted by BlackProjects
reply to post by 1337cshacker

 

Nice thread..I hadn't come across this link but like it very much. Too many are willing to believe every wild theory except those from the Bible. The reason for this is there is an adversary- the devil who is hard at work deceiving.

Quite true.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by 1337cshacker

 

sorry, but your baseless assumption that your end of the world myth is true and your "warning" that it will happen really won't be messing with my day.

Baseless? Get off. I know it won't be messing with your day, that is not my intention. My intention is to minimize, if only a few, the number deceived by satan.

Originally posted by Hallberg Rassy


Revelations is not a stand alone book, it is copied from far earlier writings that date back a thousand years, borrowed, stolen, plagiarized from roman and greek writings. They are part delphic oracle, part sibylline books, etc... Take the time to research where something comes from before attempting to understnad what the symbols stand for.

It was written by john, and by john alone. It was not borrowed nor copied from any other work. Some have only speculated this because it is similar to other doomsday prophecies, if anything, it gives it merrit. As if the words "Holy Bible" on the front don't give it enough. I have spent a few years looking at this last book, researching it, and have come across what you say. The difference is, I know why it is 'they' say what you say.

Indeed....

Originally posted by highfreq
Why can't we just discuss the Book of Revelation and the content therin without a God exists, and God doesn't exist arguement? So what if the other person thinks God is an alien.
So what if another think's God doesn't exist. The discusion at hand is about the prophecy and events written in the book of Revelation.

So the book was written by a man. The Christian believes he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Other's believe his writtings were based off other earlier writtings. Some believe He was exposed to mold's and spores that live in caves, where it is said that He had these vision's.

Whatever the case, what about the conent's? How plausible is it for the event's to happen? Have any of them come to pass? These are the question's we should be asking and discussing. Not the existence of God. Their is plenty of those if you want to talk about that subject.

Well said. Bible code exist in revelations, as thought the rest of the bible. This would give evidence of real visions and divine intervention (inspired by the holy spirit).

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by whirlwind

 

Do tell. Why does your god....

But one, single, 1, ein, God.

[edit on 15-10-2007 by 1337cshacker]

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by whirlwind

 

You realize you worship an extortionist, right? The basic tenet is that, from the moment of your conception, you have been damned by god, and only through worshipping hte god that damned you, will you be "Saved"?

God never damned us. Adam and Eve did by disobeying God in the first place. Their disobedience damned us all by bringing sin in all of our lives from conception. Sin affects everyone and every thing right down to our last molecule.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by whirlwind

 

Do tell. Why does your god need my love? Does he not get enough hugs from you folks, that he has to shop around? He sounds emotionally fragile. I don't date needy people, and I'm not about to commit to a needy god. I prefer the mutual respect relationship I have with the ones I've got already. Thanks, though.

You're right. God doesn't need your love. He created us to have a relationship with us. Sin got in the way, and is preventing that. God does want your love, and loves you because you are His creation.

Most people love what they create, especially when they spend the time trying to get it just right. Heck, there are people who play Sims2, create Sims, and care for those Sims just as much as their family members. They use a cheat to turn aging off, just so they don't have to see them die.

God took that time to get us just right. Instead of just speaking us forth like He did everything else, He took His hands and molded us. He took the extra time to carefully form us.

God loves you more than anything else on this Earth. He sent his Son to die to save you. Sin is in the very fiber of your being, and only Jesus' gift of salvation can remove that sin, so we can be in the presence of God after we die.

I know of no other God or enlightened person willing to sweat blood, go through hell on earth, and face what a normal person could not even begin to hope to endure just to save all of us from our sins. Yes, I mean all, and that includes every last sinner no matter how great their sin was or even if they worshiped the enemy before turning to Jesus.

I know no other religion, enlightened person, or God who is that tolerant or merciful.

No he doesn't need your love. He loves you even though you brush Him off and don't believe he exists.

I wanted to touch on this also. There are those of you who can not comprehend how a God can be loving and yet wrathful. This will really help you if you have kids yourself. If not, try to remember the harried mother yelling at her kids in the store, playground, or etc.

Normal parents love their kids. They want to give their kids the world, and protect them from any and all harm and danger. They love their kids greatly, and will give their kids what they ask for within their means. But there is a time when that love will turn to anger/wrath.

The kid does something like jumping on the bed. The parent goes up and tells the kid not to do it. A little while later, they hear the kid jumping on the bed again. The parent goes up again and gives the kid a stern warning. A little while later the kid is jumping on the bed again. This time even more angry, the parent gives a very stern warning bordering on yelling, and threatens a punishment. A little while later, the parent hears the kid jumping on the bed again, except they also hear a loud boom. Running up the stairs, the parent sees the child is fine, but the bed is broke. The parent wrath has just hit boiling point. Junior now gets a spanking, and has to remain in his room for the rest of the day. Further punishment will be given out later on when things cool down a little.

I believe this is why God is often seen as a father figure. He loves us even more than a parent loves a child. Just as a loving father can not let misbehavior go unpunished, neither can God let sin go unpunished. Jesus took that punishment for us. If we refuse what Jesus offered, then we will have to take the punishment God is going to give us.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Do tell. Why does your god need my love? Does he not get enough hugs from you folks, that he has to shop around? He sounds emotionally fragile. I don't date needy people, and I'm not about to commit to a needy god. I prefer the mutual respect relationship I have with the ones I've got already. Thanks, though.

Don't misunderstand what I said. He doesn't NEED you at all....He WANTS you to love Him. As any father wants his child to love him, He wants you to love Him.


So....get all the "mutual respect" you need you from whomever you wish. He'll still be there, unless of course, you wait one day too long.


............Whirlwind

reply to post by Mystery_Lady


You have a beautiful post and I pray others will listen to the words written........Thank you.


.............Whirlwind

Originally posted by highfreq
You know people , when I clicked on this thread , I really thought I was going to read about the book of Revelation and the prophey's therin.....
Why can't we just discuss the Book of Revelation and the content therin without a God exists, and God doesn't exist arguement? ....
Whatever the case, what about the conent's? How plausible is it for the event's to happen? ....

Yep. That is what I thought I was going to read, also. Call me weird, but I think Revelations is not so much Prophecy as a record of an Out Of Body Experience, or OBE.
Revelations 1:10 says John was in the Spirit when he received messages to the Churches.
" I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me ."

Later, it appears that just having received messages to the churches, he is "in the Spirit" again. I think this begins the OBE.
Revelations 4 : " 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne"

From this point on, John records not just what he sees, but what he does.
Revelations 5:4 " And I wept much....

He records what he says. Rev. 7:14 'And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.. "

I don't remember any other Biblical Prophet recording his own words and actions in the middle of a prophecy. I think that what he claims to have seen, he literally saw. However, in his lack of technological knowledge, he described what he saw in the language of his day. This made it seem coded or hidden. I discovered that by reading Revelations from Chapter 4 to the end of the book, keeping an eye to today's technology it makes a lot of sense.
Before anybody tries to jump all over me on this, I'll not try to defend anything, I'm just trying to explain my views, for what they are worth.
By the way, I got the KJV verses from /www.biblegateway.com.

reply to post by rawiea


It very well could have been. The term the Bible uses is visions. They are seen in the spirit. I'm not sure if they are out of body, or not. There are two other experiences in the Bible I can recall off hand. Each time the person went to sleep before seeing the vision.

The first one is when Abraham early on when he was sacrificing animals to God. He killed the animals, and prepared them for the sacrifice. Then he kept the scavenger animals away while he waited on God. When God came, Abraham fell asleep, God finished the sacrifice by burning the offering he walked through them.

The other I can recall off hand is when Jacob had his vision when he was asleep of a ladder ascending to heaven. Angels were climbing up and down the ladder. This later became known as Jacob's ladder.

I know there are others, but I just can't think of them right now. This might be a point of interest for you to see how many of these types of visions there are in the Bible, and if they correlate to OBE somehow.

It is possible some visions came while using the drug '___'. Everyone produces a small amount of '___' naturally in the brain, but by making a concoction of certain plants, you can increase it. Mayan and other ancient shamans did this to discover what science is only realizing today. Sirius B (not visible with the naked eye) was known about in ancient times. I am sure the small amount everyone produces keeps your conscious in this vibration of dimensions. By taking more, you can artificially raise your conscious, or vibration, to a higher level. While taking this and the effects kick in, your eyes close and your body falls into a state of sleep, and your conscious leaves your body. It is reported that people think their heart is about to stop when this begins to happen, but really your internal clock stops and you experience eternity. Most reports on the internet of people using this today have claimed to see aliens, god, complex machines, and a wealth of information being sent to them (ether by aliens or god). In my opinion this would explain some of the symbolism of revelations, though its not proved (nor do I think) revelations was written as a result of '___' use. Some users had the urge to utter the information they received as they were 'coming to' and got it on tape recorder, in my opinion after hearing it, you cant make this stuff up. It's illegal to do but is not really classified as am illegal drug. The things needed to create/purchase are not illegal. Mayans took it in a drink, but it is possible to smoke. I think its possible John, or anyone else, can raise to "heaven" or the spiritual plane by using this, thus, saw the 'visions'. In revelations it did not say how the visions came to him. I'm not saying he did this, but the possibility and fact fit. Just something to ponder upon. There is a universal conscious that knows everything, some have claimed this to be god, and we are all apart of it in one being, thus are all a small part of him. This would make sense "God is in everyone". I believe god is multi dimensional and thus we cannot fully understand it, but we can understand we cannot understand. More importantly, some of the "wise" will understand what the do not understand, and what they do.
www.erowid.org...
Don't try this at home. But information on it.

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
God took that time to get us just right. Instead of just speaking us forth like He did everything else, He took His hands and molded us. He took the extra time to carefully form us.

God loves you more than anything else on this Earth. He sent his Son to die to save you. Sin is in the very fiber of your being, and only Jesus' gift of salvation can remove that sin, so we can be in the presence of God after we die.

The thing I don't understand is why God, who is all-powerful, would allow Satan or Lucifer or whatever name you want to refer to him as, to influence man's existence at all. Why? If, as you described, God put so much loving time and effort into creating humans, and loves us to this day, why in the world would he allow the corruption of that creation? Why didn't God just pluck up Satan extinguish him from the start? After all, Satan is another of God's handy creations, right? Does God really love his creation so much that he would stand back for thousands of years and watch as they kill each other, rape the planet that he created for them to live on, and practice all of the evil behaviors that he supposedly finds so intolerable, all to the point that he had to have his own "son" slaughtered as a means of absolving HIS OWN CREATION so that he wouldn't incur a mighty wrath on all of them? And WHY would a God who is all-powerful, all-knowing, in all places at all times, and planned out every moment of time from beginning to end, who supposedly loves his creation unconditionally, allow for all of these terrible atrocities and evil things to happen, and watch while his creation grows increasingly disgusting every day in a world festering with evil? Because of love? Huh? Does that sound like a loving God?

And to try to tie that back to the original topic of the book of Revelation...How can Christians assume so easily that that book, or any other book in the "Holy" Bible are not the work of this Satan character, or at least manipulated by Satan? I mean, Satan was somehow able to populate the world with evil peoples who practiced false religions before Christ arrived, has the ability to have his minions possess the bodies of humans to this day, and is apparently the cause of all evil that has happened over the course of time. And yet somehow Satan did not have any influence of the works in the Bible?

I was a Christian for 13 years. And now, in hindsight, I wonder how I was able to go for so long without questioning the absurdity of it all. I believe there is a God, but not one who would go so far as to make believing in him to be such a complicated and difficult thing to do. As someone else noted, if I want to worship God, I can do so without the complexity of some man-made religion.

EDIT: Fixed quote tags.

[edit on 17-10-2007 by John_Q_Llama]

John, there can not be good without evil. If there was only good, what good would it be? What could it be compared to? How could it be challenged? If everyone was good because no evil, or evil controller, existed, then there would be no challenge for humanity and nothing to oppose god. Everyone would just always be good and never sin, thus, humanity could not be 'tested'. We must pas a test, yeh? Correct.

God has allowed satan to rampage the earth with demons, and in the end days finally himself, because of the SINS of people, the unrepentant. God gave us freewill, if he did not and told us never to sin we would not, and we could not be tested out of our own conscious.

About man made religion, well, all religion is man made, so good luck becoming something else and thinking your in the right. I consider myself very faithful and spiritual and have not attended any church in years. You don't have to sit in a room with a bunch of other people to go to heaven, or have faith in god, or respect his ways. Simply reading the bible, following commandments, loving your neighbor, and accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour is all you need. Pray, repent, better yourself after you sin, and ask forgiveness not for the fear of hell (the lower spiritual plane) but for the love of god.

And to try to tie that back to the original topic of the book of Revelation...How can Christians assume so easily that that book, or any other book in the "Holy" Bible are not the work of this Satan character, or at least manipulated by Satan? I mean, Satan was somehow able to populate the world with evil peoples who practiced false religions before Christ arrived, has the ability to have his minions possess the bodies of humans to this day, and is apparently the cause of all evil that has happened over the course of time. And yet somehow Satan did not have any influence of the works in the Bible?

Yes, satan has had his hand in the bible. Two people: Constantine, King James. Half of the people that went to the constantine meeting came out alive, even christ divinity was decided on, multiple other things changed. King James' men rewrote much of the bible, so the bible code would be scrambled. I think it was also King James that took out the 5th gospel, because it was very powerful and was a threat to evil doers. True bible code is only the the original untampered, which believe it or not still exist. About revelations being tampered with, it has not. The book is in its entirety, John saw a vision from god, NOT SATAN. Bible code is in revelations showing diving helping of the books writing. Jezz.... Grow one, but good question.

[edit on 17-10-2007 by 1337cshacker]

reply to post by 1337cshacker


Thanks for the lengthy, civil response 1337cshacker.

I guess for me it boils down to this: Did God create good and evil when everything else was created?

I've written a few long replies and then backspaced to delete them because everything comes back to that question. I don't think anyone can answer it definitively. However, from a Christian perspective, if God created EVERYTHING, then that creation must have included good and evil. That being said, why not leave evil out of the mix?

Free will? Isn't it possible to have free will without being evil?

Test the human conscience (as you stated)? I'm not sure I understand this, and am guessing that you're referring to a test of ones faith in God in the face of the trials of life. But I don't think this would even be necessary if God hadn't created evil and Satan.

The book of Revelation is believed to be a vision John had been given from God. How do we know that it wasn't Satan who was behind that? Or, as was mentioned earlier in the thread (and I find this rather amusing despite the fact that it's completely possible), was it the result of some sort of hallucinogen, regardless of if it was on purpose or not?

I know that it's all a matter of faith. Believe me, I have been there. But it's points like these that just don't add up to me and forced me to reconsider where my spiritual beliefs were, leading me to where I am now.

Oh, one more thing about something you said:

About man made religion, well, all religion is man made, so good luck becoming something else and thinking your in the right.

I wasn't saying that I would create anything. I was stating that a person who wants to worship a higher power should be able to do so as they wish, free of the complications that man has come up with over the centuries. Worship should be a simple, fulfilling, positive experience that occurs between a person and that which they worship. I applaud you for the way you worship God! If you, alone in the comfort of your home, can communicate and grow in your relationship with God, then that is awesome. That is worship. The rest of the stuff that religion introduces is not necessary.

Thank you for your commendation!

What you say about good and evil being created is valid. I cannot say for sure that god created good and evil. I would give my best guess as: Good and Evil is a side effect from consciousness. Or, a side effect of the ability to choose. You can choose good, or evil paths/actions. Try not to think of them as things on their own, you must associate them with actions/thoughts. "That was wrong, That was good, That thought was wrong, That thought was good" And so on.

Good and evil are abstract ideas, thus, it only takes a mind to create it. One cannot create it in a sense of a physical matter. If anyone could, it would be god.

This also boils down to a question "Did God create himself?". You have to understand eternity. God did not create himself nor was he created by anyone else. He is the single force that has always existed. There is no past or future in eternity. Some people misunderstand time, and as the universe existing for eternity. This is not correct, since the universe was created at some point (past) and is now (present) and will cease to be either by a big freeze or big crunch (future). Thus, the universe cannot be eternal since it had some type of beginning, present and possible future. In the spiritual plane exist eternity. It was not created at a set date, there is no present, and future cannot exist. It is one single point.

"Test the human conscience (as you stated)? I'm not sure I understand this, and am guessing that you're referring to a test of ones faith in God in the face of the trials of life. But I don't think this would even be necessary if God hadn't created evil and Satan."
Ah ha! You have just answered yourself, I applaud. We would not need to prove we are good if evil did not exist (or conjured) at all. We would simply strive through life only doing good, but because that would be the only choice. It boils to choice: If he had the choice to do good over evil and does so, he is worthy. If he only had the choice to do good, then he is simply compliant and not capably of overcoming certain forces.

As for Satan manipulating John, I do not think this happened. Satan would not describe himself, or the anti-christ in that way, he would try to give the appearance of being good, so he can trick. Instead, Satan appears as a tricker, which is so. I doubt Satan has the power to inscribe bible code in human writings, I believe only God can. Not only that, but the symbolism it uses could only be that of Gods symbolism. It would be deceiving if Satan wrote it, since he is plagued with deceit. The bible is probably one of the few places Satan cannot travel and wreak his deceit, he can however attempt to alter it, as Constantine and King James did. Only the holy can write which is holy, and only the corrupt can write that which is corrupt.

I stated earlier it is possible for '___' or other drugs to have provoked to the visions. Even if that is the case, the visions are VERY similar between David and John, thus, it cannot be coincidence (A very big and saddening one if so.) Read my above post about '___', I believe it is not simply a drug, but a substance capable of artificially raising your vibration to that of Gods realm. Everyone who takes it sees machines, God/Satan, aliens, and are overwhelmed with alien information.

Interesting.

Originally posted by jprophet420

But every person is a sinner except for Jesus, so no one can get in...

Anyone who is saved and prays for forgiveness is written in the Lambs book of life. That was the point of Jesus dying on the cross.

So yes, it clearly states, those people will get in.