The Disease of Mindless Patriotism, My Thoughts

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen



Ah, the war on terroism.......

Operating secret courts? Rendition aircraft? Torture? Sounds very Orwellian to me? No doubt its something the Soviet Union era KGB would applaud, but how does it match up to our system of rights and habeas corpus? How many do you think are going to released? I have no problem with trying them and putting them in jail. But to hold them indefinetly without charges on the say so of an administration that has lied and cheated the American people is beyond what Im willing to accept.

If we cannot live up to the tennants and principals of our Constituion and Our Bill of Rights are we really better than the terrorists?

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
Even Abu Ghraib was not that bad. Where the U.S. might of had hooded prisoners standing on a milk crate with mock electrical cables attached to them,

Apalling is the real word here. Im not talking About Abu ghraib which is 10000X more appling, but rather your callous statement. This is exactly the kind of statement that I would expect from the mindless patriot.

Blind to the changes going on around him or her, more than will to follow the status quo like so much sheeple........... sad really

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
Even Abu Ghraib was not that bad. Where the U.S. might of had hooded prisoners standing on a milk crate with mock electrical cables attached to them

You forgot to mention the beatings, forced sodomy, dog and snake bites, and resulting deaths from such abuse.

reply to post by Operation AJAX

Originally posted by Operation AJAX
reply to post by TheAgentNineteen

 

Ah, the war on terroism.......

Operating secret courts? Rendition aircraft? Torture? Sounds very Orwellian to me? No doubt its something the Soviet Union era KGB would applaud, but how does it match up to our system of rights and habeas corpus? How many do you think are going to released? I have no problem with trying them and putting them in jail. But to hold them indefinetly without charges on the say so of an administration that has lied and cheated the American people is beyond what Im willing to accept.

If we cannot live up to the tennants and principals of our Constituion and Our Bill of Rights are we really better than the terrorists?

Who created the tenets and principles of our Constitution? Who works tirelessly to ensure that they remain true? The American people did and do, that is who.

Who should be the beneficiary of that work? This is where I think a case can be made for the idea that certain rights should be extended to our citizens, and not to everyone, esp. not those whose goal it is to slaughter us. It is the responsibility of each individual society and/or culture to create the kind of world that they want to live in.

So what happens when those societies or cultures clash? Should we allow the adversary the benefits of our system, while they exploit it to their advantage? Should we continue to turn the other cheek for the sake of some noble ideal? Should we suffer the indignities of inhumane treatment because it makes a great slogan?

Good never wins out simply because it is right. Sometimes it is necessary to amputate the diseased limb, as cruel as that sounds, else the cancer will spread to all the body and eventually kill it.

jso, we've occasionally agreed on topics, disagreed on most but I must say this is the most frightening post I've seen here.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Who should be the beneficiary of that work? This is where I think a case can be made for the idea that certain rights should be extended to our citizens, and not to everyone, esp. not those whose goal it is to slaughter us. It is the responsibility of each individual society and/or culture to create the kind of world that they want to live in.

It wouldn't be frightening if it wasn't for the fact that the US has the POWER to adapt it's "culture" to "creating the WORLD" of choice.

So what happens when those societies or cultures clash? Should we allow the adversary the benefits of our system, while they exploit it to their advantage? Should we continue to turn the other cheek for the sake of some noble ideal? Should we suffer the indignities of inhumane treatment because it makes a great slogan?

We're talking about detainees of the US forces right? How are they "exploiting" anything to "their advantage"? What "indignities" are they doing to your "culture"?

Good never wins out simply because it is right. Sometimes it is necessary to amputate the diseased limb, as cruel as that sounds, else the cancer will spread to all the body and eventually kill it.

No, a cancer is an internal thing. What you are proposing is "amputating" someone elses limb for what you perceive as a "cancer".

reply to post by jsobecky


There is the Constitution, then there is also the Universal Declaration of Human rights.

www.un.org...

The true patriot is somebody who defends the Constitution. Not somebody who defends the Government.

reply to post by intrepid

Originally posted by intrepid
jso, we've occasionally agreed on topics, disagreed on most but I must say this is the most frightening post I've seen here.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Who should be the beneficiary of that work? This is where I think a case can be made for the idea that certain rights should be extended to our citizens, and not to everyone, esp. not those whose goal it is to slaughter us. It is the responsibility of each individual society and/or culture to create the kind of world that they want to live in.

Oh, the horror!

That is a common knee-jerk reaction that I get whenever I propose that we fight fire with fire, intrepid. But there is merit to the argument once you get past the shock.

Originally posted by intrepid
It wouldn't be frightening if it wasn't for the fact that the US has the POWER to adapt it's "culture" to "creating the WORLD" of choice.

No it doesn't, intrepid. We may be the superior military force on earth, but winning the battlefield is only a small part of the task. Once you have the tiger by the tail, the fun begins.

Originally posted by jsobecky
So what happens when those societies or cultures clash? Should we allow the adversary the benefits of our system, while they exploit it to their advantage? Should we continue to turn the other cheek for the sake of some noble ideal? Should we suffer the indignities of inhumane treatment because it makes a great slogan?

Originally posted by intrepid
We're talking about detainees of the US forces right? How are they "exploiting" anything to "their advantage"? What "indignities" are they doing to your "culture"?

I'm talking about the notion that it is somehow demeaning to them to hold them at a Gitmo, while having to calmly accept their notion of impisonment, which includes having you head severed by a rusty knife while it is being videotaped.

Meanwhile, we are expected to afford them a clean cell and all the amenities, and access to our legal system which they would love to destroy (after they used it to their advantage).

All for the sake of a noble ideal.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Good never wins out simply because it is right. Sometimes it is necessary to amputate the diseased limb, as cruel as that sounds, else the cancer will spread to all the body and eventually kill it.

Originally posted by intrepid
No, a cancer is an internal thing. What you are proposing is "amputating" someone elses limb for what you perceive as a "cancer".

A cancer threatens my body. How it originates is immaterial. It's goal is to destroy me.

So the analogy was not perfect. I think you know what I meant.

Good topic this one, I knew it was gunna get lots of diffrent replies when I saw it a few days ago. Now is my time to chime in.

I see lots of people on here that seem to be lost to me. Some of you will know what I mean and some of you are lost.

The US has the greatest consititution I have come across, but a lot of people dont get it, the recent thread on the people trying to arrest president Bush is a very good example of this.

My wife is an American and I know quite a few. I see quite a few diffrences between our patriotic thinking. I would not mindlessley chant the pledge of allegience (what is that under god rubbish doing there?) every day or salute the flag. That seems to be brain washing material to me.

However when I saw that F22 film on here recently, the pride welled up inside of me, the greatest plane made by the greatest nation. She didnt seem to get my emotion about a plane! The same thing happens with the space shuttle and other acheivments too.

I think the main problem you guys have, is that you do not have a proper sport, that you play against other countries! No, carpet bombing and the world series dont count

In England, and most other countries, we have football (soccer) that we play against other countries, when there is a big match the flags come out everywhere, people wear the shirts and it is a great place to be! Everyone united together supporting our national team, willing them on.

This also happens to a lesser extent for rugby (american football kind of, but not as boring) and cricket (kinda like baseball, but more boring!).

Bring on the sport guys, you did pretty well in the womens world cup (did anyone know it was on?), shame you got whipped by Costa Rica in the mens one . I feel this is the way forward and will help to get you in the proper patriotic mood.

Then again, you have lots of redneck, hick types that will always be morons

reply to post by Operation AJAX


Americans have always been, or at least pretended to be "Super Patriots." We buy Chinese made flags and forget our country has sold us out for a "bag of rice." Is this is how they justifiy?? ... then turn a blind eye to all the wrongs this country has done since it's conception. The Constitution & it's bias loop-holes were a non-humanitarian joke for anyone who was not white in it's first 150 years...

Most Americans don't have a clue as to the " pockmarked yellow brick road" this goverment has... and is... driving them down.

Just like these bright-eyed old 18 year GI Joes who patriotically walk into a midwestern mall and sign up for some branch of the millitary.

RECRUIT OFFICER - Sit down son... we got a gooood deal here. I know you can't spell College so what about killing people abroad?? YOU ARE AH RED ,WHITE, & BLUEY? ...Huh?huh?


GUNG HO GI JOE - Hell yeah!! America is number one. We gotta stop em before they invade the state of Los Angeles. Do we get to carry AK 47's and stuff??


R.O. - Son, you look just stupid enough to be brainwashed into loosing your life for nothing... What about joinin' our operation here...? See these brass buttons... we even have Bling-Bling in here son. Now don't even worry about money... we'll pay you 2 dollars an hour... and that adds up to ah hell of allotta benifits. And when it's all over you can go home ah proud killing machine.


GUNG HO GI JOE - Yeah, im ready to go 5000 miles away and shoot bad guys to make America better... Daddy said there's still communists.


R.O. - Where's your daddy now?


GUNG HO G.I. JOE - Oh he's in ah millitary nut house swatting pink elephants.



the moral ---- Americans participate in a false patriotic bubble, flying flags and slicing apple pies to prove they are down with Uncle Sam. They don't understand their patriotism is only a smoke screen to hide the overwelming quilty veridicts passed out to us by the rest of the natural world.

Other countries see America for what it is --- Why can't we??

reply to post by jsobecky


Jso,

I maintain we if we cannot keep to the pricipals and tennats of our constitution, we are no better that those we are fighting. Yes, sometimes it puts us at a disadvantage when prosecuting these animals, but so be it.

Republics do not sucumb to external pressures and forces untill they decay from within. If we can so casually discard parts of our constituion and bill of rights then that decay may already be under way.

Good will only triumph when it stays true to its ideals and principals. Once it strays it becomes no different that those it is fighting

Originally posted by jsobecky
Who should be the beneficiary of that work? This is where I think a case can be made for the idea that certain rights should be extended to our citizens, and not to everyone, esp. not those whose goal it is to slaughter us.

Ok Jso, going to call you on this one. Thats the same argument Hitler used against the Jews and the Russians. I know you aren't going to like me using that analogy, but its true. Have you, or the US really gone so far down that road?

It is the responsibility of each individual society and/or culture to create the kind of world that they want to live in.

If thats the case then why do alot of Americans seek to mock other cultures? If people want to live as they do, thats their right, isn't it?

So what happens when those societies or cultures clash? Should we allow the adversary the benefits of our system, while they exploit it to their advantage? Should we continue to turn the other cheek for the sake of some noble ideal? Should we suffer the indignities of inhumane treatment because it makes a great slogan?

If you want to be respected, and have your views and ways adopted, then the only way to get your message across is to treat your enemies better than they would treat you. You cannot, ever, hold the moral high ground if you revert to being the same as those you seek to condemn. If your ideas and goals are strong enough then they will stand up and be adopted by other people. Thats the US that everyone knows and loves. "Truth Justice and the American way" not "pre-emptive strikes, rendition and lies".

Good never wins out simply because it is right. Sometimes it is necessary to amputate the diseased limb, as cruel as that sounds, else the cancer will spread to all the body and eventually kill it.

Or alternatively, you could throw your resources at the problem and develop treatments for the cancer.

Maybe I'm over simplifying it, but there is always another option than violence.

Originally posted by Level X
reply to post by Operation AJAX

 

the moral ---- Americans participate in a false patriotic bubble, flying flags and slicing apple pies to prove they are down with Uncle Sam. They don't understand their patriotism is only a smoke screen to hide the overwelming quilty veridicts passed out to us by the rest of the natural world.

Other countries see America for what it is --- Why can't we??

Many Americans are not blind to the faults of our nation, in fact I'd be so bold as to say most Americans are not. Nor are they, we, blind to the good around us. Smokescreen, huh...yeah, that's why the wrongs and far too few of the good things are splashed all over the media for the whole world, including Americans to see.

The good and the bad are there for anyone to see, and precious few of us, can see both.

As for your gross misrepresentation of a recruiters office, I'll not even dignify that with a response. Even this much is too much.

We know that the insurgency, or terrorists, call them what you will, will not accord our soldiers, or civilians, the protections of the Geneva Convention or our own Constitution. As far as that goes, very damned few nations other than Great Britain, Canada, and the United States ever have paid even lip service to the Geneva Convention.

I've seen calls for us to fight fire with fire, I've even advocated that myself upon occaision. Well, I was wrong...we can't beat them by playing by their rules, they wrote the rules, they know the game better than we do. To beat them, we must show character, along with the resolve that we've so far shown. That means opening up the secret courts, giving the prisoners legal representation. I really hate saying this, because I know that these bastards would not accord my brother the same, should he be so unfortunate to fall into their hands alive.

To win the WOT, we must give the masses of the world a clear alternative. Our way...attack us and we'll fight back, but cleanly, and with a resolve to minimize the damage done. That much we've done, or attempted to do. Most understand this. The aftermath is where it's gotten murky...everything is clouded by secrecy or by agenda; and it's an agenda fueled by both sides of the debate. This must stop, or we are lost.

Their way, the way of the suicide bomber, the video taped beheadings, etc... We must make sure our actions are as diametrically opposed to those as possible. Abu Graibe (forgive my spelling), and assorted other events like it can not happen lest we loose what moral highground we espouse.

This is, of course, MHO. I'm just one of those "blind superpatriots" some herein are talking about.

[edit on 12-10-2007 by seagull]

reply to post by seagull


Well put

We can win the WOT and we can defeat the terrorist scurge, but as you put we have to stay true to what made our nation great.

To stray and fight the terrorist on thier level forces us to alter the fundementals that our society is based upon (A goal of the terrorists) and we run the danger of becoming what we so despise.

[edit on 12/10/07 by Operation AJAX]

Originally posted by Operation AJAX
reply to post by jsobecky

 

Jso,

I maintain we if we cannot keep to the pricipals and tennats of our constitution, we are no better that those we are fighting. Yes, sometimes it puts us at a disadvantage when prosecuting these animals, but so be it.

Republics do not sucumb to external pressures and forces untill they decay from within. If we can so casually discard parts of our constituion and bill of rights then that decay may already be under way.

Good will only triumph when it stays true to its ideals and principals. Once it strays it becomes no different that those it is fighting

Well, I'm not advocating that we abandon our principles. I'm saying that being an American citizen should entitle one to certain rights. And extending those same rights to everyone was not in the original design of our nation.

And I am not even talking about suspending rights for our citizens, even though there is precedent for that:

More violations of the Constitution probably occurred during Abraham Lincoln’s four years as president than during any other cohesively defined era in American history. Many have pointed out that Lincoln suspended habeas corpus to jail war protesters, shut down hundreds of newspapers that disagreed with his war, established a draft for the first time in American history (except in the seceded South, which had a draft a year earlier), instituted restrictions on firearms, and sent troops to violently suppress the New York draft riot. He also used the war to push through the "American System," a program of de facto nationalization of the transportation industry via massive subsidies to corporations that would agree to build "internal improvements" – railroads, waterways, and canals. The victory of the Union in 1865 not only established that, contrary to popular political theory in the antebellum era, the federal government was completely supreme over the states; it also established that a president could do literally anything he could get away with, no matter how many liberties were suspended, innocents jailed, and people killed in the process.

www.lewrockwell.com...

Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by jsobecky
It is the responsibility of each individual society and/or culture to create the kind of world that they want to live in.

If thats the case then why do alot of Americans seek to mock other cultures? If people want to live as they do, thats their right, isn't it?

I'm talking about sovereignty of a nation here. People of all cultures and races mimic each other; I have no problem with that. It's quite the natural thing to do.

Originally posted by neformore
If you want to be respected, and have your views and ways adopted, then the only way to get your message across is to treat your enemies better than they would treat you. You cannot, ever, hold the moral high ground if you revert to being the same as those you seek to condemn. If your ideas and goals are strong enough then they will stand up and be adopted by other people. Thats the US that everyone knows and loves. "Truth Justice and the American way" not "pre-emptive strikes, rendition and lies".

I am simply advocating to fight fire with fire. There are certain cultures that do not respond to reason; their MO is treason, treachery and terrorism.

The old adage "Don't take a knife to a gunfight" applies. Otherwise, you handicap your troops.

This part of the discussion, while interesting, is getting off track. I apologize, and will try to keep on topic from now on.

BTW, this thread has been informative and interesting, without degrading to personal or partisan sniping. Kudos to the OP and all involved.

JSO your obviously in denial of what your nation has done and what it stands for, if you go around kicking people they are going to kick back, so dont kick in the first place.

How many Vietnamese harmed a US citizen or where a threat to them, how many Koreans, Iraqis or Afganis not to mention all those countries where your Goverment has tried or suceeded in assasinating other leaders/politicians.

The US has been resposible for the deaths of milliions and you wonder why people hate America and what it stands for, well its simple keep invading other peoples countries and they will fight back with whatever means at their disposal and in my book they have a God given right to do so. I'm sure if the US was invaded and occupide you would welcome the aggressors into your home.

Being a true Patriot is to protect your own people from any threat from your own Goverment poses to said people it does not mean going on a global killing spree.

reply to post by seagull

Originally posted by seagull
I've seen calls for us to fight fire with fire, I've even advocated that myself upon occaision. Well, I was wrong...we can't beat them by playing by their rules, they wrote the rules, they know the game better than we do. To beat them, we must show character, along with the resolve that we've so far shown.

Seagull, I respect your opinions, and you are probably right in this case also. I'd better back off from this, lest I get branded a superpatriot.

reply to post by magicmushroom

Originally posted by magicmushroom
JSO your obviously in denial of what your nation has done and what it stands for, if you go around kicking people they are going to kick back, so dont kick in the first place.

What are you talking about, mm? Give me an example where I denied that the US has ever doen anything wrong.

Originally posted by magicmushroom

How many Vietnamese harmed a US citizen or where a threat to them, how many Koreans, Iraqis or Afganis not to mention all those countries where your Goverment has tried or suceeded in assasinating other leaders/politicians.

The US has been resposible for the deaths of milliions and you wonder why people hate America and what it stands for, well its simple keep invading other peoples countries and they will fight back with whatever means at their disposal and in my book they have a God given right to do so. I'm sure if the US was invaded and occupide you would welcome the aggressors into your home.

Being a true Patriot is to protect your own people from any threat from your own Goverment poses to said people it does not mean going on a global killing spree.

You're way out there, dude, past Neptune. You obviously hate the US and you're looking for someone to lay blame on. Well, it's not me you're looking for.

Originally posted by jsobecky
reply to post by magicmushroom

 

Originally posted by magicmushroom

Being a true Patriot is to protect your own people from any threat from your own Goverment poses to said people it does not mean going on a global killing spree.

You're way out there, dude, past Neptune. You obviously hate the US and you're looking for someone to lay blame on. Well, it's not me you're looking for.

MAGIC,

Good job... I'm with you on this one. This is a typical reaction of "Super Patriot" as coined in my earlier post.

I'm proud you have the balls to call them out. Superpat's like Jso, have always quietly cheered America's agressive imperialistic expansion. They have been raised, educated and trained from history books, movies and parents that told them to do so...

These are the real Caucasions in America... voicing out, with real white peoples views, and real white peoples superiority complex's.

These are people who know their Catholic priest has molested 50 boys and still take communion from his pedifile stained hands. Do they turn a blind eye when the duck is cooking?? You bet --- to expose him in would be... you got it -- UNPATRIOTIC.

These are the type of individuals who snob homeless, wheel chair bound Vets on a New York street corner. Then, patriotically come home and snug up to a cozy fire wapped in the American flag --- I've seen it with my own eyes

They have a crafty ablity to stand on both sides of a fence. They pretend to have compassion for peoples/countries ruined by America's policies... but... In the dark of night, whether wrong or right, they always-always roll with regime that matches their skin color. But, unfortunatley a new chapter is brewing...

They are beginning to realize, as they hold their flags, this goverment really doesn't give a damn about them either-- now ain't that scarry.

Question - How can you exterminate a race of American indians and still proudly salute the American flag??