Islamic Prejudice: Christians

There is no discussing this matter since his mind is already made up and is just trolling for either points or arguments.

It is not worth the time to type in any responses to him so lets all ignore him and let his stew in his own hate filled juices.

reply to post by grover


Yep agree...

Originally posted by AncientVoid
Science is not the same as religion. Science has evidence, religion doesn't.

I did not say they were both the same. I was just pointing out one similarity. BTW, religion does have evidence. There is scientific evidence that backs up a lot of whats in religion.

reply to post by 4thDoctorWhoFan


And what i'm was trying to say is that there was no point to compare religion and science like that. It doesn't work...

Originally posted by AncientVoid
And what i'm was trying to say is that there was no point to compare religion and science like that. It doesn't work...

Ok, in your opinion it does not work however I thought my analogy was a valid one. Anyway, lets move on......

astmonster,

I commend you for attempting to show these people that Islam is dangerous, founded upon violence, and that it is evil incarnate. Islam is evil, misguided and violent. I don't say this b/c im Christian, I said this back years ago when I didn't believe in any God. I have read the Qu'ran, as I've read the Torah and portions of the Zohar, as I've read the Christian texts. Before I realized Arian Gnostic Christianity was closest to truth for me, I went through a period of simply "I'm a Monotheist", and read all these texts, researched all these religions. I'm not just bias, and I'm not hate filled, and I'm not lying about a thing here whatsoever.

Does Christianity have an entire set of second class citizen rules for every Monotheist other than a Christian in a Christian Country to live by? No. Do Christians force you in their own Country to not practice your Judism or Islam where they can see or hear you, under penalty of possible beating or death? Does Judaism have such a set of discriminatory rules toward Muslims or Christians in a Jewish Country in their Holy Texts? No.

Yes Catholics went on the Crusades, largely fueled by lies from the Papacy of pilgrims to Jerusalem being killed and manhandled. The only place in the Modern World where the Crusades left a noted mark on the people of the Earth is Lebanon. In Northern Lebanon, The Christian Maronites, as well as the Christian Phalange, owe themselves to an early conversion to Christianity during the Crusades.
Yes, Catholics had the reformation, had inquisitions, and burnt innocent people alive for false crimes. It was a crazed atmosphere indeed. I am not Catholic, and Catholicism is a blight upon the Earth.

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Umar"
After the rapid expansion of the Muslim dominion in the 7th century, Muslims leaders were required to work out a way of dealing with Non-Muslims, who remained in the majority in many areas for centuries. The solution was to develop the notion of the "dhimma", or "protected person". The Dhimmi were required to pay an extra tax, but usually they were unmolested. This compares well with the treatment meted out to non-Christians in Christian Europe. The Pact of Umar is supposed to have been the peace accord offered by the Caliph Umar to the Christians of Syria, a "pact" which formed the patter of later interaction.

English Translation of the Pact of Umar
We heard from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Umar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows:

In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Umar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

-)We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.
-)We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.
-)We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.
-)We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.
-)We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.
-)We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.
-)We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.
-)We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.
-)We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.
-)We shall not sell fermented drinks.
-)We shall clip the fronts of our heads.
-)We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists
-)We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.
-)We shall not take slaves who have beenallotted to Muslims.
-)We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.

(When I brought the letter to Umar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.")

We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.
If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.

Umar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims," and "Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact."

from Al-Turtushi, Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230.

I would never follow those stinking rules. I'd follow the rules they notice, like the ones in public, but you can bet your arse I'd change out of my "sack cloth and rope" uniform when I got home, I'd light the incenses, and I'd read the Bible and pray to Yahweh. These rules speak for themselves, and yes modern countries have these rules. Saudi Arabia has many of these rules, as does Pakistan, as does Syria. It's perfectly normal and even expected in a Muslim society for all non Muslims, Monotheist or not, are looked down upon, made second class citizens, hassled, heckled, arrested, attacked, you name it. I feel for the Coptic Christian minority of Egypt, they get assaulted in their neighborhoods by mobs of angry Muslims, like when a sensitive movie hit Egyptian theatre. The Muslims, knowing they could without being arrested, vented their anger in the low income housing of the Christians, burning property, maiming people, perhaps there were even deaths.

Ever heard of a mob of Christians walking into a Muslim neighborhood and starting to beat everyone while burning their cars and homes?

The truth of this argument is clear; it's just that Christians happen to be right about THIS argument and, being that this is ATS, no one can accept this. It's okay, I know the truth, you're the one who may or may not need to learn.

reply to post by runetang


nice hypocricy!
you're following a religion founded upon genocide and distortion of history and then calling an equally violent religion evil incarnate

reply to post by runetang


Errrr....runetag?
I don't know how you come to the conclusion that Islam is evil incarnate based on the Pact of Umar:

Muhammad (lived 570 to 632AD)
Umar (lived 682 to 720AD)
Pact of Umar (c. 717AD)

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


As an avowed athiest you appear to be defensive of Islam but very anti-Christianity.
Why the difference?

IMO, Yes followers of various branches of Christianity have committed horrendous acts of barbarity and have used brutal practices in their evangelical zeal to "convert" non-believers.
However, as a whole, Christianity has progressed and moved on.
Very few Christians advocate this approach now and Christians as a whole are very tolerant to followers of other faiths.

At one point in history some Islamic countries / states etc were the most enlightened in the world and provided much welcomed refuge for Jews, (who were being persecuted by various Christians) and numerous heretical Christians.

Islam has regressed.

The followers of Islamic extremist teachings are increasing and spreading their brand of hatred and intolerance.
Muslim intolerance is creeping into everyday life and if continued unchecked will eventually affect all of us.

One example;
www.timesonline.co.uk...

I have no particular axe to grind, I follow no organised religous creed.

Originally posted by Freeborn
As an avowed athiest you appear to be defensive of Islam but very anti-Christianity.
Why the difference?

...i'm not defensive of islam, i did state that it is EQUALLY VIOLENT
i'm just pointing out hypocricy. people say islam is so horrible, while christianity is equally horrid

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


But I do not commit Genocide. The Church I belong to doesn't commit Genocide, never did.

I belong to Runetang's Judeo-Christian Chruch of Gnostic Theologians, okay.
(I just made it up, sounds spiffy huh)

And in my Church, we don't kill nobody, unless we are being attacked with intent to kill & are in serious danger. Therefore all of your inquisition/crusade "The Christians have been killing thousands of people for centuries!" crap can brush off of my platinum reflective armor LIKE WHAT!

Anything which has occured in the past due to any Christian Church or person of any denomination does not apply to me in any way shape or form because I am not of the sect, end of discussion & please drive through.

In reply to the other guy, yes you are correct that the Pact of Umar was decreed into Islamic Sharia Law about one hundred years after the death of Muhammed (PBUH and violence be upon everyone else, lol). However, the Pact of Umar was decreed by, well, Umar, who happened to be the Caliph.

Therefore, ever since it has been kept with the Hadiths, or the books from which the basis of Islamic Law comes from. In the Hadiths are commentaries from the first Imams on subjects in the Qu'ran and their opinions on it. There are also stories of historical merit about the Caliphs and so forth. The Hadiths are widely revered to be as holy as the Qu'ran, second only to it, and anything in the Hadith except for perhaps one or two things is to be considered Islamic Law. If you goto Islamic countries today that are hardline with their law and follow Sharia, you will see this yourself.

So in the end, just because Muhammed (PBUH and violence be upon everyone else) didn't say it, doesn't mean it isn't a part of Islam and integrated into it. Much as sayings of Paul are integrated into Christianity, he lived well after Jesus died.



[edit on 10/7/2007 by runetang]

reply to post by runetang


Nope, it was not decreed into sharia law. The concept of sharia law is an amalgamation of 4 schools of thought (derived from interpretations of Islam) that were finalised somewhere in the....14th century?

Just because a Caliph decreed something, doesn't make it right. After the first 4(?) Caliphs there was a whole line that weren't exactly considered the greatest. They drank heavily, were intoxicated most of the time, and made the Caliphate into a hereditary office.

What Umar (of the Pact of Umar) said has certainly not been included into Hadith. And there is a pretty large amount of the Hadith that is considered to have weak reliability, and much that is even has uncertain reliabilty. Besides, the Hadith deal with what Muhammad did, what Muhammad said, and what he improved. The 'Hadith' of his companions (in which Umar was not included) have a much lesser importance.

BTW, you seem to be confusing the Umar who made this pact with the first Umar, who was someone completely different.

So yes, if it is not in the Quran or the (reliable) hadith, it is not Islam.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Organised religion is the bane of mankind, however, I can not agree with you on this one.

I have read your posts on numerous threads and you have proved yourself to be a most adept opponent of Christian dogma.
Yet when commenting on Islamic matters you appear much more concilliatory and not as passionate in your arguements against, despite your avowed atheism?

Just an observation, not a criticism.

Christianity has had it's moments and still does have extremist believers. But they are becoming increasingly marginalised and their influence is negligible.
Nowadays, Christians as a whole are pretty much tolerant of other beliefs.

Followers of Islamic extremism are increasing in numbers and their influence is growing.
They preach hatred and intolerance and could actually be described as medieval.

reply to post by grover


This is very, very funny. Rather than have a discussion, you accuse me of "trolling" then run and hide. I have presented many, many issues, yet I get no response except I am a "hater"? Perhap you should open your mind.

I don't "hate" muslim's, I pity them. Being "anti" does not make one "hate". The simple definition of "anti" is "opposite" not HATE.

Much easier to point fingers and scream "hater" than to open one ears, eyes, and mind to the truth........

Originally posted by astmonster
I don't "hate" muslim's, I pity them. Being "anti" does not make one "hate". The simple definition of "anti" is "opposite" not HATE.

Much easier to point fingers and scream "hater" than to open one ears, eyes, and mind to the truth........

+1

Just to add what are the laws of the land of places like Iran and Saudi Arabria and Afghanistan? Read the news, it's fact that you can be persecuted for leaving Islam and it's fact they use torture and humilation and public beatings. There is one law for Muslims and another for non Muslims and women. That is the way it is, maybe not all places some may not care about some laws but does not mean it is not the law of the land.

Christians and other minories are being pushed out by Islam, one by law two by society it self let alone those who want democracy who come to our Western society to get out of it, you see more exports from them than imports of westerners to their countries. Communism is not great either where religion is not allowed and persecution is also a factor.

The point of the post i do not know any more but this is an expression of living free to living under a not so free system.

reply to post by astmonster


I haven't run and hid anywhere or from anyone least of all you.

You haven't proved crap except that you hate Islam and will not listen to any other opinion that does not verify your own.

So in order to have an open mind of my own I have to I have to entertain, tolerate and accept your hate and narrow mindedness? I don't think so.

Your words condemn you... hell you have even gone so far as to have written off Catholics and other Christians different from you as pagans.

You have no credibility on the subject of religion.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by grover]

reply to post by runetang


really? because you work from a holy book that GLORIFIES genocides and military conquests...or did you just gloss over those parts?

reply to post by grover


I don't need "credibility", I have truth and the word of God with me. Again, you scream "hate" and point fingers. Why do you fear me? Why do you fear my words?

One last time slowly, I "pity" Islam and those that follow the false teachings of so-called christian faiths.

The rapture is a scam. The 12th imam is a scam.

Originally posted by astmonster
reply to post by grover

 

I don't need "credibility", I have truth and the word of God with me. Again, you scream "hate" and point fingers. Why do you fear me? Why do you fear my words?

One last time slowly, I "pity" Islam and those that follow the false teachings of so-called christian faiths.

The rapture is a scam. The 12th imam is a scam.

Oh you pity them... how white of you.

[edit on 8-10-2007 by grover]