Athiests, What would it take for you to be a Christian??

Well - MajorMalfunction's first post pretty much reflects what I think. Great post, by the way

In reality terms, nothing would convince me that there is a god. Nothing would sway me to accepting a religion.

What would it take for me to become Christian?

I don't care if the Christian God e-mailed me personally, I'm not going back to Christianity. I went to a Southern Baptist school in grades K-3 and Catholic school until I graduated from high school.
I've had more than enough Bible study and dogma/doctrine study to last me 5 lifetimes. I know the Bible better than most probably. It's full of inconsistencies, contradictions, misogyny and advocates alot of violent things.
How could I ever believe in a God who asked someone to kill their own child? Or a God who advocates slavery and abuse of women? There are 50 million different interpretations of the Bible and everyone thinks theirs is the one right way, the only way. This is a religion that teaches that women are inferior to men and should obey them, OBEY them, I laugh in their general direction, any man who asks me to to him.

Christianity wants me to believe that I was born a sinner and will always be a sinner. For what, some transgression Adam and Eve did? It wants me to place a male figure, God, above me. I believe we each have our own inner divinitygodself and I don't need another one who is external to my psyche, thank you very much.
I can't stand the hypocritical hate and rage that so many Christians have, all the while claiming it's a religion of love.
It is a religion who's main premise is to make its followers feel shame, guilt, massive repression of all kinds of desires, who claims to be the only right religion, and in general teaches that you are a pile of manure next to God.
Many Christians have a sense of entitlement about foisting their religion on others. Some of them will even pound you over the head with it,
:bash: until you are senseless.

You will never get me to believe that same-sex love is wrong. It's love isn't it? How can it ever be wrong for 2 people to love each other?

The whole Christian religion comes across to me as the worst nightmare of a schizophrenic on acid and makes me want to drink. :w:

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
Why do you assume I haven't felt this "extended consciousness" you speak about? I have, many times, in many different settings.

The difference is, I don't assume it's from outside me, from some supernatural source. I understand (though only as a layperson) how the brain, hormones and the body can affect one another to make things SEEM otherworldly.

A hallucination does not a deity make. The brain is the power behind consciousness, and nothing more.

I second Ambient Sound's motion that you read the Hubris thread.

Yeah, what she said.

Thanks Major M, great post. I, too, have had the same experiences.

Ok,
as far seeing God directly for proof and so forth. Bible tells us that people did see God in certain forms and heard his voice directly and still didn't believe or listen to what he said. Jesus performed miracles that defied current laws of nature and people didn't believe. Same would apply today. Some would believe but you still have hard core sceptics that would be that last ones on earth to exist in this hypothetica situation.l
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But even math can't prove there's a god. So I can't agree with you there.

Actually mathemtics includes infinity in it's equation and their is a whole branch on math proving infinity, see my signature. In my knowledge of the Bible and experience of God, he is infinite. Hand in hand my dear and it's a matter of perspectives. What you deem as supernatural is actually to me very natural.
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I agree organized religion does have too many flaws in it, so I keep vigil with a weary eye. Jesus himself bashed organized religion and was crucified by it.
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To ShadowedRedemption & forestlady. What I should of included in the illegitimate reasons category was also if you had a bad experience with "organized religion." Philosophically we can throw this argument out the window. I personally had a gun put to my head and got robbed as a teenager, but I don't dislike guns because cops used them to find the guy who did it and arrested him. In this kind of excuse your viewing the gun in the robber's hand without seeing it in the cops hand or without seeing it unused by itself.

Other than having your "bad experiences," if you trully had the indwelling Baptism of the Holy Spirit that brings divine Love and enlightenment, you would be true Christians.
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Experiences of expanded consciousness are one thing. We can get these from foriegn substances such as drugs/alcohol, breathing excercises, jogging, adrenaline, meditation, and so forth all of which are plain and obvious that they stem from within and directly from any of the aforementioned items. Additinally in teenage years I experimented with some but remained athiestic.

However, I speak of a consciousness expansion that comes to you from out-side of yourself. Jesus promises the expansion of your consiousness through a Seperate entity outside of yourself that literally will indwell you through the top of your head and reside within you and with you.

It is completely obvious when this happens to you that it is outside of you. This experience also allows you to see spiritual realms and the goings on all around us that the majority cannot see. Again this is something promised in the Bible and is the hieght of any human experience possible on this planet. Nothing tops this since this experience puts drugs to shame and lasts the rest of your life. The others fade away after a few hours or so.
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Thanking you all for helping me to more narrowly clarify my position and arguments.

Oh and another thing. To say that we are where we are today and eveything that exists is so today based on chaotic randomness is again preposterous. In experiments on chaotic randomness, so far nothing has come about to include a possibility for a big bang then evolution, both mathematically and virtually speaking.

Now in other tests with chaotic randomness where there is some-one actually tryin to directly influence the outcome by thought alone, there is a change of directedness. Also seen in the double slit theory. This is again to my science ponting towards intelligence behind all of this.

www.redorbit.com...

EVIDENCE, that would be all it takes. viable evidence of the christian religion... but you'd kind of need to show how all the stuff logically follows if you can't prove all the tenants.

reply to post by dominicus1


I agree to a point, but your arrogance, or is it ignorance, is that you ask a legitimate question then limit the scope of the answers due to arrogantly believing that you have dismissed the validity of some of the retorts you expect.
Your op gave opinions in anticipation to replies, that is not proof.
That is arrogance in my book, sorry.

Nothing will, I see no need to boost anyone, or anything's ego and pride by worshipping it and I see no need to boost my ego and pride by being worship by anyone or anything.

Being all powerful doesn't automatically win my respect.

Worshipping to me = blind/total obedience, I prefer to question everything, even from sources that I respect. I hate being used and lied to.

It is more likely that I would practice Buddhism than Christianity as I find it to be more agreeable to me but I won't be worshipping the Buddha.

From my understandling, the Buddha wants people to concentrate on his teachings to try and beome, enlightened, decent, moral beings, not to worship him.

I see the Buddha as a powerless but enlightened person, I see the Christian God entity to be like a powerful but spoiled child.

While I believe that there maybe powerful and enlightened entities in the universe, I believe that some of these entities which may have come here, demanding our worship and obedience, may not be benevolent types.

[edit on 5-10-2007 by ixiy]

People keep going on about evidence. Show me evidence! Evidence! I want proof!

Realistically, I very much doubt that anything at all would constitute as proof of God, so I ask all those asking for 'proof' to re-evaluate their statement. Some requests of the 'proof' required:

* Scientific evidence [nothing specified]
* seeing the sky open and a big ass pair of sandals step out
* a direct message from god would work.. like him calling my cell phone or something..
* if that one guy comes back like hes supposed to..
* if god himself shows himself and answer some questions (not going to happen) and not only me wittnessing it (could be trick of the mind) then i might consider believing in a god.

Now look back at those statements. Would they REALLY convince you of God? I don't think so. All sorts of excuses can be popped off by those who do not want to believe: hallucinations, fakes, holograms, massive dispersals of mind-altering drugs, etc. If your mind is already made up, its kind of naive to say that 'proof' will change it.

For an (unrelated) example: If you knew me to be the kind of person who wouldn't lie about such things, and I told you that I personally saw a flask move all by itself on a dry, level, non-slidy platform, with no wind nearby, would you believe me? No, you would look for alternate explanations, magnetism, repulsion, even if they are extremely far fetched and unweildly. This is because you've already made up your mind about the way the world works, and its inconcievable that there can be something different.

The only valid excuse I can think of for the question posed by the OP would be the belief that the fundemental idealogy of Christianity is flawed.


Now for some of my own questions:
MM, you've said many times that the existence of God is highly improbable. How do you figure that?

Therefore, science does not deal in god.

Like yourself and the OP, I also believe that science and religion are two separate entities, and while I also believe that they go hand in hand, many don't. But then why ask for scientific proof of God? Dominicus made an point that I liked very much. What is the scientific proof of the existence of beauty? Science deals with the physical world, but to limit ourselves to only the physical world is a bit narrow-minded, no? One cannot truly say that if its not physically present, then it doesn't exist.

[edit on 5-10-2007 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
* Scientific evidence [nothing specified]

ANYTHING! Show ANY scientific evidence. The reason why we say that is because there is none!

Originally posted by babloyi
If your mind is already made up, its kind of naive to say that 'proof' will change it.

Well, "proof" kinda helps the credibility, don't ya think?

The point is, if there is no proof, then how can you believe it? Religion is a bunch of assumptions, wishes, hopes, etc.

There is no proof of there being a god.

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


Okay. Going back on my previous point, what sort of proof would you accept to be proof of the existence of God?

reply to post by dominicus1

Dominicus1 said"
"Experiences of expanded consciousness are one thing. We can get these from foriegn substances such as drugs/alcohol, breathing excercises, jogging, adrenaline, meditation, and so forth all of which are plain and obvious that they stem from within and directly from any of the aforementioned items".

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How on earth are breathing and meditation foreign substances? Meditation produces changes in the brain, that isn't external. Breathing, well, hardly a foreign substance, we have oxygen in our body, if we didn't we'd be dead. Nor do you get expanded consciousness from alcohol and certain drugs (not talking about entheogens here, but meth, for example).

I think you are grasping at straws here. Based on your refuting alot of our reasons for not being Christian, as you expressed in your opening post, I don't think you're asking a question to seek information from non-believers, I think you're trying to bait us and inflame us. I don't think you're really interested in hearing us and it doesn't appear to me that you are actually listening to us. YOu are preaching at us and I really don't like it. You are not demonstrating any respect for your audience. You, sir, are a good example of why I don't like Christianity. I don't like the arrogance, narcissm and ignorance that so many Christians exhibit.
Where do you get off believing that you believe in the one true religion and the rest of us are idiots and wrong?

reply to post by babloyi


Any scientific evidence that conclusively proves the existence of a god. Any means any.

The fact is, there is none.

Most of us, I'm sure, if presented with conclusive proof, would no longer doubt the existence of a god. I know I wouldn't.

But looking around the world today, and just using common sense, and realizing that there is no proof of a God - it's kind of hard to come to another conclusion.

'Miracles' happen to people. Against all odds, somehow things work out. It happens. It's happened to me, and not once have I prayed to a god. It just happens. That's how it is.

Why assume there's a god simply based on that? That's not proof.

reply to post by NovusOrdoMundi


Don't worry, I'm not basing my beliefs on the movement of a flask in a lab. I just gave that as an example. But you still haven't answered my question. You say any, but I ask what. WHAT would you consider to be conclusive proof of the existence of God?

reply to post by babloyi


I did answer your question. ANY scientific proof. Any at all.

The christian arrogance rises again! They group all atheists together thinking we all have the same reason for not believing. I never said that I needed proof in order to believe. Proof for me would be irrelevant. Because through my own spiritual expansion ( aided of course by meditation and not drugs) I've found that there is no god, and the truth cannot be taken from my eyes.

The OP asked what would it take to be a Christian? not, what would it take to believe in God.

I think they are 2 seperate questions.
If, and it's a big if, I believed in God, it does not mean that I would be a follower of any current Christian denomination.

reply to post by Boondock78


XD omg thats about the best thing ive seen lol.

but onto the more serious issue here. show me proof. i want you to take a video camera up to heaven and give me the tape i want you to be able to show it to me.
and plus if there is a "god" and he's almighty and "loves" all his children. then why would he give me such a crappy life? why would he take all my grandparents away before they could meet me?

so show me the proof. and when i see "god" dont be surprised if i deck him right there!

I am agnostic. For me to even consider believing in your god, It would have to stand before me, tell me something I know, and tell me something I don't know. Than grant me 3 wishes.

reply to post by WorldShadow


You are very important I see?