A few thoughts for those who think engaging Iran militarily would be disastrous for America

A ground war with Iran at this point is not possible and any attempt at it would be a complete failure. A bombing campaign would be a different matter though, but Im sure they would take some casualties in the process. A "war" with Iran in the near future would be limited to just bombing campaigns, and it would only work to the benefit of big business and work greatly against the average American citizen.

Your posts/threads once again fwesh are unduly inflammatory. 'Your' mind is obviously made up on the matter. Some of us believe diplomatic consensus would have been the high road on Iraq and quite soon Iran. Really don't know what your agenda is, really don't care. Keep up the 'we are all stupid' thing and I'll personally ask the mods for sanction.

Do you even know WHO is Vladimir Zhirinovsky, he is like Rosie only in RUssia. this guy is a joke. The gov won't take him seriously.

look at him www.youtube.com...
He is the older one.
www.youtube.com...

and in this one he is in the military uniform.
are you kidding me?
I share the Slavic Mentality let's say.

Originally posted by Mdv2

Originally posted by Odessit
I can bet you 100% that Russian gov will never consider selling S-400 to a country such as Iran. I know their mentality pretty well because I am from around there.

Obviously, the Russian government doesn't share your 'mentality':

Vice Chairman of Russia's State Duma Vladimir Zhirinovsky has urged the fast delivery of the magnificent S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems to Iran.

Speaking at the open session of Russia's State Duma on Wednesday, Zhirinovsky stated, "S-400 anti-aircraft missile systems should be delivered as soon as possible to enable Iran to defend its airspace."

The S-400 is a new generation of anti-aircraft/anti-missile weapon system developed by the Russian Almaz Central Design Bureau.

The S-400 is capable of detecting and destroying targets out to a range of 400km (250 miles), such as aircrafts, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles, including those with a range of 3,500 km.

Sources confirm that the S-400 is capable of detecting and destroying aircraft made with low observable materials such as the American 'stealth' aircraft.

Russia provided Belarus with the same system a short time ago.

The S-400 is so sophisticated and powerful that it can change the military balance of a region since it is capable of hitting targets previously considered untouchable.

The anti missile system has the incredible speed of 4.8 km per second which is faster than a bullet leaving a Kalashnikov machine gun.

Source [/q

its like imma keep saying air campaign against iran means tons upon tons of loose weapons which will be really bad for iraq and afghanistan but think about it how do we win in iraq? we have to fight the countries sending insurgents to the other countries syria iran saudi arabia and the pentagon everyone at a desicscion making level knew this there not stupid they knew it would cause us to have to fight the entire middle east till they give in or we run out of money dont let them fool you into "oh well we didnt think it was gonna be like this" we already invaded afghanistan they had a precedent even for what was gunna happen foriegn interests gettign involved and they know if we bomb iran that al qeada hizbullah are going to get whatevers left at the bombed military complexes and that could really tip the battle in iraq and afghanistan

I feel I must point out at this part of the proceedings that the Iraqi military was pretty much systematically destroyed by a multi-national UN force in 1991.

After that, arms imports and food into Iraq were strictly monitored, and no fly zones were set up in both the north and south of the country. Those zones were rigourously enforced on several occaisions.

Despite the propaganda that some people might swallow, the forces Iraq had in 2003 at the time of the second Gulf War were not, in any way, shape or form anywhere near full strength, or properly armed and equipped.

What I'm saying is that it was more of a walkover because of the state of the Iraqi forces, rather than the seemingly (in some peoples eyes) masturbatory fantasy of all conquering American forces.

Now I'm not saying that the United States can't knock over Iran by itself. I'm sure it can. What I am saying is that Iran doesn't have the disadvantage of having the crap blown out of its army ten years earlier, which means that its likely to inflict something of a bloody nose. It has better intelligence and better weaponry than Iraq had, and while Iraq could fire a Scud that might hit within a couple of miles of its target, the Iranians can probably realistically hit any US base in the region. So while the result may not be inquestion, the US might sustain a bloody nose, maybe a broken rib or two and two black eyes before the knockout punch is landed.

Originally posted by jpm1602
Your posts/threads once again fwesh are unduly inflammatory. 'Your' mind is obviously made up on the matter. Some of us believe diplomatic consensus would have been the high road on Iraq and quite soon Iran. Really don't know what your agenda is, really don't care. Keep up the 'we are all stupid' thing and I'll personally ask the mods for sanction.

Inflammatory? Stripping the sugar coating and political correctness off a viewpoint to leave only the raw truth exposed, generally does tend to inflame people like you, yes... but it still doesn't stop me from saying what I have to say, when I feel like saying it. Feel free to make liberal use of the ignore function if you have a problem with that.

You really don't take very kindly to anyone disagreeing with you jpm. Unfortunately for you, you're just going to have to deal with it because I do disagree with you and in fact, I've yet to see any opinion you've ever stated that I actually did agree with.

Cheers .

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Yep, I agree with you 100%.. if we do go to war with Iran, which I do not believe we need to do but if we did, we would roll over them just as fast as we rolled over the Iraq Republican Guard. Both times!
Never underestimate the US and dont even bother to threaten us with potential invasion by China or Russia because they no better as well.
Even if they were to get past our military, which is doubtful, the next force they will face is 250 million armed civilians.

Well said and thank you Kronos for proving there is at least one other person besides myself on ATS who doesn't mind sharing their blunt viewpoint even when they know the vast majority will whine and cry about it endlessly. I'm sure there are other sensible people around as well but they tend to prefer remaining silent or else coat their words with such political correctness that their point is half hidden anyway.

Originally posted by fweshcawfee
I'm sure there are other sensible people around as well but they tend to prefer remaining silent or else coat their words with such political correctness that their point is half hidden anyway.

Yes there are indeed more silent people who simply cant be bothered with sabre rattling, chest beating, Im stronger than you are, Rah Rah American BS

[edit on 24/9/07 by Chorlton]

Originally posted by djohnsto77

How about we bomb Israel instead, now that would be cheaper and save everyone a lot of grief.

Apparently you have no problems with indiscriminate bombing though, I guess if they're Jews it's all ok, right?

Behold my friends, Zionist propaganda at work full steam.

Why are you so afraid of Iran? Is it because they have threatened Israël, or is it something else?

Maybe because Iran does not confirm to Israël rules?
Maybe because Iran gives the Palestinians a platform?
Maybe because Iran is one of the few nations left which dare to question the Holocaust and has held international conferences about it?

I need not tell you the difference between The Jews and The Zionists again right? I applaud the Jews and expose the Zionists.

No djohnsto77, it is NOT because "you´re Jews that it´s all ok" it is because Israël is an agressor and more and more individuals are waking up to that fact.

Nice try.

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Truth4hire]

Chorlton it astounds me to no end that you've included the following statement in your siggy: "How can we Deny Ignorance when so many people Deny Reality ?" Reality is precisely what you're denying, otherwise you wouldn't have an issue with my OP or subsequent post.



[edit on 24-9-2007 by fweshcawfee]

Originally posted by Odessit
I can bet you 100% that Russian gov will never consider selling S-400 to a country such as Iran. I know their mentality pretty well because I am from around there. Su-47 won't even for sale and Russia has only 1 of them. They already shut the idea of producing Su-47.

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Odessit]

You are mistaken, they were talking about selling S-400 to iran in duma week ago or something like that, it was on the news. Also, i know Russians have not one but two Su-47's, and they are just for show. I mentioned it cause i wanted to compare Su-47 to F-22. The real plane that is coming to production 2008 is Sukhoi PAK FA, that will most likely be superior to all US planes. Look it up at wikipedia if you wan't more information, it will be the raptor killer.

Originally posted by Odessit

Do you even know WHO is Vladimir Zhirinovsky, he is like Rosie only in RUssia. this guy is a joke. The gov won't take him seriously.

If you are unsure, you should check many of the military communities, there are rumors and lots of talk about super tech traveling to Iran. Actually Putin loves to put everything he has into Iran, nothing gets him more excited to see his new toys in use, and seeing USA humiliated. I can bet alot of money that S-400 will be in Iran next year, and that is not all. I can see few raptors falling....

I do know Zhirinovsky cause i live in Finland and if you know anything about this mans history, then you know what i mean. He is a mad man indeed but in this matter he is correct and russian politicians know it.

America is a country of Patriots and Roughnecks, we just have to remember who we are and where we came from. These problems are starting to boil over and I for one wont take it for very much longer. We will try to resolve this issues politically but when all else fails dont think American citizens are so fat and lazy they will allow their country to burn to the ground. To ask if gun toating Americans will shoot when threatened with obliteration the answer is a firm yes, a rat will bit you when you corner it and America is a sinking ship.

The time for talk will end soon, what Im wondering is are there enough Americans with the guts to say this ends now? Will we reflect the world's opinion of fat lazy scared children. I hope not, I for one will not stand by and watch as we kill ourselves.

My life is that of struggle and as a lower class American, I care not what happens to me, more so do I care for the smiling faces that have brought warmth to my cold heart in the past. Would any other American take their voice to Washington?

Originally posted by fweshcawfee
Apparently there are a few people around who still don't quite comprehend the true strength and might of the United States of America.

Your mistake, and the mistake of all empires that have fallen, is to underestimate your weakness and overestimate your strength.



The US Militarily, is much stronger than Iran, but if the US attacks Iran, Iran will be hurt, and will strike back to hurt it's attacker.


US military bases in The Middle East? Consider itself a target for Iranian counter-attack. Missile barrages, perhaps a jet fighter strike even.


Oil exports blockaded, naval battles, perhaps lose a few US Navy ships.


Lebanon. Hezbollah, who are Shia, will unite with Iran, their Shia brethren, and may well strike Israel, perhaps also entering Syria to get into Iraq to support their Shia brethren against US forces, bringing technological and military know-how.


And, indeed, what about Iraq?


Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani of Iraq, the most senior influential Shia cleric in Iraq, who is considered a moderate, who encouraged women to vote in the Iraqi elections, who encouraged the Shias of Iraq to not hinder US forces when they invaded in 2003, has said that if the US attacks Israel, it will be the duty of every Shia Iraqi to kill and American soldier in Iraq.


Imagine that, and how that will impact the Iraqi insurgency.


Every Shia Iraqi, tasked by religious decree to kill US soldiers.


Akin to The Mahdi Army, increased millions fold.



Following a US attack on Iran, Iranians may well be tasked with forming cells striking the US and it's interests all over the world in response.


Americans attacked Iran, Iranians attack America, fair play, they will say.


Iran is not a threat now to the US. But if attacked, they will do their hardest to make sure they will be, to make sure the US regrets every second the decision it took to hit and hurt Iran.


And Iranians, perhaps having lost loved ones and fiercely proud of their nation, will do their damnest to make the US, their attacker, will hurt as America hurt them.


Still confident it's still going to be a pain-free walk in the park?


And the more nations America attacks, the more energy consuming it will find it. And it will weary. It will tire. Be it in the near future, or after my lifespan, it's empire will fall.


It's how it's empire falls will be interesting, be it through the rising and victory of a new empire, or from the American Empire's sheer exhaustion.

Originally posted by Regensturm
Your mistake, and the mistake of all empires that have fallen, is to underestimate your weakness and overestimate your strength.

Did you think of that all by yourself or did you draw inspiration from the hundred and one people before you who have more or less said the exact same thing on ATS. Does anyone ever have an original thought around here? I constantly see people troll for stars like this by repeating things which have already been hammered in the ground numerous times before by the majority of liberals here.

This is a modern age we're in, not some archaic sword and shield era so kindly get off the "all empires fall" kick, it's absurd.

reply to post by neformore



Iran also has larger population, more cultural identity, and follow their leaders out of respect not fear. At least the Islams do, seculer part I don't know.

And don't think when we bomb them they will just hunker down, they might just send 20 or 30 divisions into southern Iraq to cut off our supply routes.

just look at the numbers

Iraq
Available Military Manpower: 5,870,640
Total Military Personnel: 77,000
Active Frontline Personnel: 35,000

Iran
Available Military Manpower: 18,319,545
Total Military Personnel: 11,770,000
Active Frontline Personnel: 420,000

www.globalfirepower.com...


[edit on 24-9-2007 by Redge777]

Originally posted by fweshcawfee

Did you think of that all by yourself or did you draw inspiration from the hundred and one people before you who have more or less said the exact same thing on ATS. Does anyone ever have an original thought around here? I constantly see people troll for stars like this by repeating things which have already been hammered in the ground numerous times before by the majority of liberals here.

Constantly repeated it may be, but it is an adage which is true. Arrogance, and supreme over-confidence in ability is what is the downfall of empires.

Originally posted by fweshcawfee
This is a modern age we're in, not some archaic sword and shield era so kindly get off the "all empires fall" kick, it's absurd.

Do you not think the Romans, the Greeks, The British and other empires at their peak all thought they were the creator of the modern age, that because of their modern weaponry and superpower status, they thought they were undefeatable and invincible and could crush all and everything?


All empires fall. It's not a kick, you may think it absured, but it's something that is told from history.


And history repeats itself.

Sure, America could win a conventional war against Iran. I dont think anyone would deny that. But they sure as hell would lose the occupation.

Iran is mountainous countryside, interspersed with large urban areas. The two best terrains for fighting a guerrilla war. It has a population three times the size of Iraq, and little in the way of ethnic divides that would concentrate fighting on each other rather than US forces.

Iran is also well integrated into the world economic system. Any attack would have severe economic consequences. You ready for the $200 oil barrel? That's just what would happen in an invasion of Iran, never mind what happens should their proxies in the Saudi Arabian oil fields destroy a pipeline or two.

Iran's population is also advantageous to them. They had a massive birthrate in the 80s and 90s, but a much lower one now. So, lots of young men and women, but not many babies who need looking after. Roughly speaking, there is a fighting pool of 18 million men, potentially.

Their navy may throw a couple of surprises too. A US war game in 2002 designed to replicate the Iranian navy's capabilities ended in a humiliating defeat for the designated US forces. Iran will certainly cause trouble for oil tankers in the Strait of Hormuz, too.

The will to fight is an interesting question. Iranian youths and liberal groups are mostly pro-American, but if Americans are bombing them and invading their country, patriotism will likely trump ideology. Generally speaking, bombing campaigns unify nations against their attacker, not divide them. Plus, this is Iran. Thousands of their troops charged across minefields while fighting Iraq, and while the religious fervour may have died down somewhat, they are still Shi'ites, who historically favour martyrdom over winning.

And let us consider the international situation. Iran would be the third Muslim country attacked by the USA in 7 years. You may as well dress your troops up in white tunics with red crosses. There will be fallout with Syria, with Muslim populations all over the Middle East. Shi'ite Iraq will go up in flames and...well, you can never discount Hezbollah being part of any retaliation.

Originally posted by Regensturm
Constantly repeated it may be, but it is an adage which is true.

I still say you were only trolling for stars, and it worked out well for you as you got five stars I believe for that post... how very predictable.

I really despise this lame one-way rating system that ATS has in which you can only vote in favor of something. It just doesn't equate to a very high degree of fairness when the vast majority of the forum are liberals who'll disagree with just about anything that ever makes sense.

Like I said before, please think of an original thought. At least that way you can earn your little stars honestly if you receive them. Chanting things over and over that have already been repeated endlessly by the liberal masses, hardly qualifies as thought provoking.

Originally posted by Kaliayev
Sure, America could win a conventional war against Iran. I dont think anyone would deny that.

Lots of people have denied it, otherwise I wouldn't have made this thread. Where have you been?

Maybe you aren't denying it but plenty of others emphatically have and still are.