The Sister Lucia of Fatima Who Died Recently was not the Real Sister Lucia: Compelling Evidence!

STM,

I would really like Rick to stop by here to answer some of my questions. Only read the first few sentences of your current post here but here are some facts about what you are saying here... all backed up with ample proof not only from Lucia's book and writings but also from books written by academic PhD scholars who have written books who are not connected in any way, shape or form with the Catholic Church where they've strived to do an unbiased and completely objective analysis of not only Lucia's writings but also those documents in the Churches archives as well as independent interviews with witnesses of the Fatima event and so on. But in regards to your first few sentences in your current post, here are some facts:

Lucia was the YOUNGEST of 7 children.
Lucia was shipped off by the Church at the age of 14 to a school/convent where they only allowed her mother to visit her -- no other family members allowed. But then they even disallowed her own mother to visit her! She was completely cut off from the world and then when she entered the convent, she was even cut off even more. There are so many documents and witnesses from inside and outside the church to support this... you just would not believe...

In the few short years before her death, she was permitted to have some special outside visitors. So Rick drove some of her relatives to visit her a few times during those last years but they were not of her immediate family i.e. mother, siblings, first cousins -- unless some of them were in their late nineties or hundreds at the time when they visited her.

So according to the information I have on this, those family members your friend picked up and drove to the convent were most likely 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generations offspring of her siblings and first cousins who Lucia was meeting for the first time ever!

Those relatives he drove to her convent have probably never seen or met their Aunt Lucia or their Great Aunt Lucia and if one or two of them have met her, they were only babies and toddlers at the time when she disappeared from their lives for a whole half century... at least!

So you cannot use this argument that those relatives that Rick drove to Lucia's convent recognized her as the real Lucia... if they've never even met personally prior to those visits?

The new Lucia made her first public appearance in 1967 for that photo-op with Pope Paul -- for one day. Then she went back into seclusion where she was only in contact with people via letters that were first checked by her mother superior and then passed on to the Bishop who would then determine if they could be sent off or not. It was the same deal for incoming mail.

It would be great if Rick could come on here to talk about this. I have many more questions to ask him and hope that he changes his mind and stop by here.



PS -- I'll read the rest of your current post a little later.. have to run out for a bit.


[edit on 27-9-2007 by Palasheea]

This is becoming quite a mystery and possibly the very best conspiracy on ATS this year based on quality of posts.

We've got some valid points on both sides and to answer STM, I did take all of those aging issues into consideration whist studying the pictures and I'm sure Pal's "experts" did as well. Aging can transform but only to a point. My mother is going to be 70 but if you put her picture next to one of her at 30 you can see many indicators that it's exactly the same person and she has had dentures since then.

I know you'll keep digging though and I would expect nothing less from you.

Pal, those explanations you gave for the relatives is great! If you are in fact accurate then it would explain them misidentifying their own flesh and blood. Getting back to my mother, I'm not sure that I would know the difference had she been taken away at 30 and I went to see her at 70. I hope I would but I'm honestly not sure and I would not be any generations removed. On top of that, who in their right mind would even be questioning the identity of a removed generation relative who is a nun upon visitation?

If you get History Channel International, there's a show on right now about the Third Secret of Fatima.

Fatima

Sorry to have been late in posting this show, but I just stumbled upon it.

Thanks, Badge

I just turned it on,

STM

I just spoke with a friend of mine who does dental reconstruction. He's one of the leading dentists here on the East Coast.

He looked at both pictures and said the second Lucia does not have dentures. I then showed him the first Lucia and asked him if he thought that her mouth, teeth and chin could be made to look exactly like the second Lucia. He looked at me and said "What are you kidding, those are two different people". Keep in mind I never told him that it's claimed they are the same person. He said the only way for the first Lucia to look like the second lucia would be MAJOR plastic surgery and that there was no way, even with todays techniques, for her teeth to be straightened, shortened and evened out they way the second Lucias teeth were. He also said that the first Lucia, based on her teeth, would have a very long upper pallete, and would at the very least need some type of expander put in to get the much larger pallete of the second Lucia.

As far as the chin goes, he said he knows of no dental technique that would make a bottom jaw line protrude like that without major facial reconstruction, including a chin implate and a jaw realignment.

It's his opinon that there is no way they are the same person.

Wow, CW!

Incredible! Thank you, CW. That's one against Lucy 2. I hope another professional will step forward and share his/her opinion also.

I've been working behind the scenes with Mr. Salbato, who is at this time a little indignant that his word alone is not taken as fact. A person's word in Europe is highly valued and he has a lifetime of being considered by all a man of honor. He is sure that Lucy 2 is the real Lucy, for these reasons:

"she inspired the other nuns with example, advise, great knowledge of the apparitions, the same handwriting, apparitions in Spain and Coimbra, and miracles at her death. If Lucy 2 was not the true Lucy I would even prefer the false Lucia to the real one."

So you can see his back is up a little, I hope we have not burnt our bridge with him, I admire him greatly.

Also, have not heard back from any of the professionals. I'm glad CW was successful, thanks again.

Right now I'm filling out a FOIA request for the FBI files on Sr. Lucia. The agent I spoke with said that it is quite likely they have a file on her and that once requested and released they'll probably add it to their historical section as well as send me a copy. She had no idea how long it will take as they receive hundreds of requests a day.

STM



[edit on 9/28/2007 by seentoomuch]

Okay, the FOIA for Sr. Lucia is turned in. I'll let you know what comes of it.

STM

STM ... eh hem... thats TWO professionals who are saying that Lucy 1 and Lucy 2 are 2 different people. My brother-in-law the Radiologist who's a member of a plastic surgery team and who works for their clinic --is the first professional here that's been contacted (by me) to look at those photo's -- he said they were different people. I'm surprised that you left that out. Hmmmm.

But having said this, cw034's doctor contact information is much more valuable as he's exactly what we were looking for... a dental surgeon.

Thanks cw034!
You did good... great job and I'm so happy that you took the initiative to ask a dental surgeon to look at those photo's!
Whew! So the doc says they are 2 different people! Well, here we have 2 doctors, one a radiologist and one a dental surgeon who are both saying that there are 2 different Lucy's on those pages.
I especially consider the dental specialists opinion to be much more on target as he's pointed out that those teeth on Lucy 2 are not dentures. Plus the information about her chin is great too!!
Thanks so much for contacting that doctor cw!!

If anybody knows a medical doctor of any kind who would be willing to look over those photo's on that 2 Lucys? website and give an analysis, that would be great! Just post whatever they say here in this thread. No names needed. But it would be even great if a forensic specialist could pitch in their .02 worth too. This person would not have to be a medical doctor -- maybe a forensic anthropologist?


[edit on 28-9-2007 by Palasheea]

Originally posted by seentoomuch
Okay, the FOIA for Sr. Lucia is turned in. I'll let you know what comes of it.

STM

That's great STM! Keep us updated! Could you tell us what you sent to them? Just wondering how you worded it just in case some of us want to send in our own request for them to look into the Sr. Lucia case. I personally would not even know what to write in such request ... without it being a long one. lol

reply to post by Palasheea


I asked for the whole file and I worded it according to the recommendations of the agent who handles these requests. It was actually a lot of fact gathering on date of birth, birth name, Sr. name, place of birth, proof of death (they had wanted a death certifcate, they settled for an obit from the New York Times), amount I'm willing to pay for the copies, my affiliations to any news media or university, intended use, purpose for requesting the information (this is where she helped with my wording), and all my personal information. It's on an internet form that they provide online and it was emailed back to them online. I feel like I've been put through the wringer and next they'll come back and ask for my first born as security.

STM

Wow! That's great but didn't they ask you why you were requesting that material and did you also include a link to that 2 Lucy's website for them to view to get some idea why you want that information from them?

I'm wondering what you hope to find in the information that you are seeking from them and how would that information allow us to know whether or not if Lucia 2 is the real Lucia or not?

As we can see, there apparently are 2 different Lucia's as analyzed so far by the PhD on the 2 Lucy's site, a radiologist who work for a plastic surgery clinic.... and last but definitely not least, that dental surgeon that cw034 contacted who provided us with the best information so far about L2's teeth and jawline.

At any rate, it will be interesting to see what they have on file anyway as we need that information just to verify that the Vatican has the power to pull some strings to have whatever information they want gov't agencies to have on their clergy.

oh, nevermind



[edit on 28-9-2007 by Palasheea]

Originally posted by Palasheea
Wow! That's great but didn't they ask you why you were requesting that material and did you also include a link to that 2 Lucy's website for them to view to get some idea why you want that information from them?

They don't accept links within requests. I had to word my request carefully and the agent helped me. I requested her complete file and also described the controversey surrounding Sr. Lucia with emphasis on a possible switch.

I'm wondering what you hope to find in the information that you are seeking from them and how would that information allow us to know whether or not if Lucia 2 is the real Lucia or not?

It was during the cold war era and also the politcal vs. church era in Portugal. I thought it would be a good bet that our people would keep up with all the events and people who influenced the outcome. This was mentioned earlier in the thread, a slogan that was used was, "Futbol and Fatima" (something like that). Fatima was used to rally the country. I hope for some sort of impartial observations, along with info on the switch if one did occur and for what reason, also much commentary on the politics and the influence Sr. Lucia's messages had on the outcome.

As we can see, there apparently are 2 different Lucia's as analyzed so far by the PhD on the 2 Lucy's site, a radiologist who work for a plastic surgery clinic.... and last but definitely not least, that dental surgeon that cw034 contacted who provided us with the best information so far about L2's teeth and jawline.

The PhD you mention is probably on the Traditionalist side, most of these sites are biased in that direction and use Sr. Lucia to further their positions. A radiologist is not qualified to analyze facial recognition, though it does count, just not as an expert imo. CW's expert is qualified on the dental and I consider his analysis valid.

You asked, these are just my opinions, hope they're clear,

STM

[edit on 9/28/2007 by seentoomuch]

Originally posted by seentoomuch
I've been working behind the scenes with Mr. Salbato, who is at this time a little indignant that his word alone is not taken as fact. A person's word in Europe is highly valued and he has a lifetime of being considered by all a man of honor.
STM

STM,
Mr. Rick Salbato is a 69 yr. old engineer from California who moved to Fatima for a few yrs. after he retired but has since moved back home again.
This said, he does not even speak Portuguese... as he himself admits this in an online article entitled 'Lucy's Last Words':

The cards were made quickly just for this farewell Mass, but in the future they will be a mainstay of gifts to anyone visiting the convent. I knew what the words were In Portuguese, but just to be sure I had a nun translate them into English for me.

.
source:
www.network54.com...

STM... did you know that he can't even speak Portuguese and that his native language is English -- which is the language most Californians speak as well as most American's?

Just wondering but could you tell us why you think Mr Salbato is 'European' even though he's not? Is it because he visited Fatima? I really would like to know.


[edit on 2-10-2007 by Palasheea]

just read the past couple pages I missed, and I have to say I still have questions.

Paleesha I think your questions are still valid and nothing has been proven yet. I do admit though this topic has had me longing to know what the "real third secret" is.

I stopped posting due to a u2u from Palasheea accusing me of lying and manipulating information even though I had copied her with the emails from Mr. Salbato. And she was also very angry that I didn't consider her brother in law, a radiologist, an expert as well as the doctor on the extremely biased site. And also, she didn't believe that the FOIA request covered the Sr. Lucia controversey.

When Mr. Salbato and I spoke on the phone he spoke strongly with what seemed to be an accent, his inflections were all over the place as he spoke and he definitely lives by the European code of "my word is my honor". Palasheea accused me of lying when I said Mr. Salbato was upset and would not talk about this topic anymore. (Mr. Salbato and I only exchange emails on other topics now.)

I made it clear to all that his phone number was on his site and if they had further questions they could call him themselves. For some reason Palasheea did not do this, or if she has now she found out that he was in fact upset and would not talk about it. His first hand experience told him that this conspiracy was false. Also, Caroline, Sr. Lucia's sister lived at least up to 2000 (I don't have my notes with me, it might be 2001).

I have filed the FOIA for any information our govt. may have on Sr. Lucia on 9/28/07 and so far I have only received an acknowledgement of receipt (this acknowledgement was received on 10/1/07) and that the request was being sent on to the dept that searches for the documents requested. They said that I should be receiving another acknowledgment in about 20 days from that second dept. I will be more than happy to forward the initial request and the follow up acknowledgement to you, Worldwatcher, and you will see that the request covers the Sr. Lucia controversey, as Palasheea does not believe me. I do not want to post my request on the board, it has my personal information on it, I feel your opinion on if the controversey was covered within the request would be fair.

When the FOIA info (which I am paying for out of my own pocket, up to $500) arrives I'll start another thread about its contents as they will cover other aspects also ie, political influence of the messages, the vatican and it's use of Fatima to retain power in the region, etc. I'm hopeful that some sort of file exists (the agent that assisted me thought there would be one) and when it is received I'll send it on to you, Worldwatcher, if you would like, and also due to my inability to master the BB code on embedding docs, etc, etc, (lol, I try but can never get it to work) it would, no doubt, be a very good idea.

Well, that's it, I'll stay off the thread now and let Palasheea go for it.

Note: Let me know, Worldwatcher, if you would like me to forward the FOIA request on to you and the acknowledgements,

STM

[edit on 10/9/2007 by seentoomuch]

Entire Post Removed.

NEW POLICY regarding u2us (Private Messages)

[edit on 12-10-2007 by chissler]

Source: www.semperficatholic.com...

A request for help was sent to Richard Salbato from Mother Celina, Superior of the Convent in Coimbra, Portugal. For those of you who do not know Mr. Salbato, let me just mention a few things. Rick was the courier for Lucia and was trusted by both Sr. Lucia and the Mother Superior to deliver her private writings to her spiritual director. Rick was called to the convent many times when the nuns needed help or advice. Richard Salbato is also the man who set up the meeting between Sr. Lucia and Mel Gibson, who gave Sr. Lucia a copy of the Passion of the Christ

Just a reminder of Rick Salbato's history with Sr. Lucia.

STM

[edit on 10/12/2007 by seentoomuch]

I wonder if Mr. Salbato has ever met Sr. Lucia in person.. and by this I mean face to face when she was not hidden by that heavy iron grate that we see in that photo of her meeting Mel Gibson?

Others have commented that they could hardly make out what she looked like having had to see her through that iron grate that she was required to sit behind when meeting people at her convent.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
just read the past couple pages I missed, and I have to say I still have questions.

Paleesha I think your questions are still valid and nothing has been proven yet. I do admit though this topic has had me longing to know what the "real third secret" is.

I have some interesting information on that from those 2 books written by Portuguese historians on the Fatima event that I mentioned earlier ... one of which has an intro by Jim Mars and the other by Jacques Vallee. But both books go into a lot of detail about the 3rd secret so I'll post that information here a little later this evening.