The Sister Lucia of Fatima Who Died Recently was not the Real Sister Lucia: Compelling Evidence!

There is no need to apologise, seentoomuch, if you misled someone was only because you were showing what your thoughts were and you had not any intention of misleading people.

If the "Way Above Top Secret" award was still active I would vote on you.

You not only showed that you did investigate to try to uncover what the truth was, you also presented the result of your investigation even if they were against your previous opinion.

And you even found a prospective ATS member with lots of experience on this type of subject.

That is really denying ignorance.

Thank you.

Thanks for checking up on that STM!

If this man says she's not an impostor then I'm more than willing to go along with that because it's just too waaaay out there to think that such a famous person would be replaced like that.

So in this regard, I too owe this board my most sincere apologies for presenting this information about Lucia because, as we can see, it turned out to be false. Lol, feeling a little foolish about all of this but really... to think that the Vatican had a Lucia impostor is just so outrageous!

Hope Mr. Salbato stops by here to talk more about this topic and about Malachi Martin and Conchita. It would be a real honor for us for him to come here and answer some of our questions about them -- especially the Garandabal BVM apparitions!


PS -- I agree with Armap that STM deserves a star for doing her own investigation on all of this.. I'm really impressed!



[edit on 24-9-2007 by Palasheea]

I'm glad it's clear now and I hope google picks up this thread when people are checking out the 2 Lucias conspiracy. We all need to do a good job tagging this thread.

Mr. Salbato just emailed me and told me the description I posted of our discussion was accurate and that, "Anything more that people want I am willing to answer". So, at this point I don't know his boardname, but if you want to be sure you are speaking with him his email address is on his webpage. Also, I'll ask him tomorrow via email about the board name just to make sure.

I also felt so bad about what I said about Sr. Lucia on this thread that I asked him how I could contribute to her convent. He said true, the convent is very poor and they live off of their garden and fruit trees with an occasional donated turkey. They are currently building a shrine/museum of the life of Sr. Lucia and it is further draining their income. So by contributing to the shrine it will be helping the convent indirectly. (The convent is not allowed to take direct contributions) He gave me two links for information on contributing, so just FYI here they are:

www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/ConventDonations.htm

www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/Lucia's100thBirthday.htm

coimbra.carmelitas.pt...

STM

[edit on 9/24/2007 by seentoomuch]

This will be funny

1 - I'm from a town very very close to Fatima. Walking distance
2 - I grew up surrounded by the history of Fatima, Virgem Maria, Lucia and the 3 little sheppards. I also study this place and the stories related since i was a young teenager.
3 - I _personally_ know some of Lucia's relatives.
4 - Do not knew Lucia. She was at the convent of St Teresa in Coimbra. This convent is ruled by the Carmelitas which do not allow almost any visitors. The nuns are closed and almost isolated from the rest of the world.
5 - Lucia was not replaced! She died on 13 February 2005 and her funeral was on the 15th.
6 - I really do not believe in Fatima!
7 - I believe there is alot of bul# from the church related to fatima. I agree that both Fatima and Lurdes (France) were great tools to motivate the believers. Just go there and see the amount of people and the business behind.

So what do you want to know more from fatima?

[edit on 24-9-2007 by JSheppard]

Here is a little more background on Mr. Salbato:

Source: www.semperficatholic.com...

A request for help was sent to Richard Salbato from Mother Celina, Superior of the Convent in Coimbra, Portugal. For those of you who do not know Mr. Salbato, let me just mention a few things. Rick was the courier for Lucia and was trusted by both Sr. Lucia and the Mother Superior to deliver her private writings to her spiritual director. Rick was called to the convent many times when the nuns needed help or advice. Richard Salbato is also the man who set up the meeting between Sr. Lucia and Mel Gibson, who gave Sr. Lucia a copy of the Passion of the Christ.

STM



[edit on 9/24/2007 by seentoomuch]

JSheppard, Thanks so much for stopping by here! I would love to find out how old Lucia was when she first entered into the convent. Was she still living in Fatima between the ages of 10 and say... 14 or 15?
Are any photo's of her as a child and teenager -- including photo's of her mom and dad and siblings? I would love to see them.
I also would like to know if there are any photographs of the 'miracle of the sun'. Is there a museum in Fatima that's showing photographs of that?
Thanks again for stopping by!

PS -- I know there are a few photo's taken at the time of the BMV visitation of the children, but to your knowlege, does the family have a photo album showing more photograph's of not only the kids but also siblings, cousins, grandparents, parents and so on... I'm not finding any of that on web anywhere... So many of us would love to see them!

What were their houses like?

Anyway, I'm just out the door but will be back in 45 minutes. Just hope you stick around for awhile! Great that you're here!

[edit on 24-9-2007 by Palasheea]

Originally posted by JSheppard

I _personally_ know some of Lucia's relatives.

Lucia was not replaced! She died on 13 February 2005 and her funeral was on the 15th.

Hi JS,

Did any of Lucia's family believe she had been replaced? I do not believe she was due to this:

Mr. Salbato told me that he personally brought some of her family members to visit her on occasion and that they chatted at length. He also said that the only visitors allowed were family, the Cardinal, or someone who had permission from the Cardinal, and her superior? (I can't recall the exact term for this). So my main basis for her not being replaced is the visits from her family and that they surely would've known the difference. And also the nun, Sr. Isabel, who knew her for many, many years.

STM

[edit on 9/24/2007 by seentoomuch]

reply to post by Palasheea


Since the apparitions and the date Lucia entered the convent, AFAIK she stayed in Aljustrel. You have to consider that during that time, they spent time in jail, and both Jacinta and Francisco died.

The official photos are at: www.santuario-fatima.pt...

There are many others but i have my doubts about its credibility. Also, there is a copy of the local newspaper (which is on wikipedia)

PS: Regarding the family photo album. Probably there is. I not near Fatima anymore and will not return soon. Sorry about that.

[edit on 24-9-2007 by JSheppard]

reply to post by seentoomuch


I agree with your point.
There was never any rumour about Lucia being different/strange.

The order of the Carmelitas is devoted to worship God in silence. Their members are enclosed behind bars and can only receive external visits from close relatives.

[edit on 24-9-2007 by JSheppard]

JSheppard,

Wow! Thanks for the link! I've never viewed this site before. From what I've read I know that there are photographs of the 'miracle of the sun' and maybe the ones on that site are the real one's. I read somewhere a couple of days ago that the Vatican confiscated all of those photo's and have never released them to the public but I have seen at least one of those photo's in the past so when I read that information, it confused me.

Also, yes, those were difficult times -- especially during that flu epidemic... forgot about that. I agree that it most certainly would explain why there are no photographs of Lucia and her family during those years. This makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for pointing that out.



[edit on 24-9-2007 by Palasheea]

JSheppard, If you don't mind my asking ... why don't you believe in what happened in Fatima in 1917? Or are you on the fence about it?

Originally posted by Palasheea
JSheppard, If you don't mind my asking ... why don't you believe in what happened in Fatima in 1917? Or are you on the fence about it?

Well... I think i may be an uncorrectable sceptic

I'm confident that something happened. Just not confident it was a miracle (or an UFO or asteroid ftm).
Lots of people saw a rather peculiar show in the sky. Including a reporter and a very important University Professor.

Originally posted by JSheppard


Well... I think i may be an uncorrectable sceptic

I'm confident that something happened. Just not confident it was a miracle (or an UFO or asteroid ftm).
Lots of people saw a rather peculiar show in the sky. Including a reporter and a very important University Professor.

I just ordered these 2 books on Saturday:

Heavenly Lights: The Apparitions of Fatima and the UFO Phenomenon
by JOAQUIM FERNANDES (Author), FINA D'ARMADA (Author), Jacques Vallee (Foreword)

CELESTIAL SECRETS: The Hidden History of the Fatima Incident
by JOAQUIM FERNANDES (Author), FINA D'ARMADA (Author), Jim Mars(Foreword)

The Celestial Secrets book will arrive sometime tomorrow and will get the other book on Weds.

So tomorrow evening sometime, I hope to share some of the information that's in The Celestial Secrets book here in this thread after I have a chance to read some of it over.

I'm interested in finding out why the authors of these books think that the 'miracle of the sun' was a UFO -- so stay tuned here for information on what these books say about that.

I personally think that Fatima is a BVM visitation and that the 'miracle of the sun' was exactly that -- a miracle. I've always held Lucia in high regard and for this reason, I was very, very upset to read about that Lucia impostor information because I don't trust or even respect the Catholic Church anymore due to all of those pedophile cases and how the Church tried to cover all of that up. So because that happened, it did not seem inconceivable to me that the Church maybe did have an impostor for Lucia. But the bottom line is this... why would the Church go through all of that trouble to have a Lucia impostor when there's simply not a good reason why they would even bother having one in the first place! I now am siding with those who believe she's had reconstructive surgery to correct her receding chin simply to improve her appearance.... nothing wrong with that. And as for her teeth... well, obviously she got dentures.
So this is where I'm at with this now.
At any rate, I am looking forward to reading those books and will be sharing that information in this thread starting tomorrow evening. I think we may find out a few things that we didn't know before. So stay tuned! Hope you will be available for any more questions I have on Fatima too!

Sorry for the typos.. have a bad cold and sneezing a lot while trying to type at the same time... lol, not an easy thing to do!



[edit on 24-9-2007 by Palasheea]

has it occurred to anyone else that there were some 50 years between the two photos, and that people's appearances tend to change as they age?

just asking, is all. i probably won't be back so don't bother with the theses.

Great thread and read!! Keep up the great work everyone!! Aside from this event and others, it doesn't excuse the church for what they are. I do believe that the priests and monks on the lower levels truly do good for the people and villages, but the church at the top levels is corrupt as can be. I think that is a given and no back up data is needed.

If the church is supposed to be so loving and sharing, why is the vatican holding hostage some of the most important artifacts and documents within their vaults. If they really wanted to end world hunger and generate peace, they would sell all of that GOLD and priceless works of art laying around all over the world. The church is still one of THE largest land owners in the world. I thought one part of the oath was to be without worldly possessions?? I mean the list just goes on and on..

With just the current scandals of gay affairs, pedo activities and rings, this is just the stuff that gets out!! Imagine the stuff that is truly hidden or silenced because of their money and influence..

The church should be seen for what they are, a corrupt money making machine. I don't ever remember reading about how Jesus stated that you needed to go to "CHURCH" and worship me. I believe it was along the lines of I am within you and have me in your heart. Not an exact quote but the meaning is the same..

My .00000002 cents...

Below is an email I received from Mr. Salbato earlier this evening. I've copied and pasted it from my personal email. And I would like to make mention of Mr. Salbato's disagreement with the theological interpretation of the 3rd secret by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger who is now the Pope. Mr. Salbato believes all of the messages have now been revealed but that the interpretation of the 3rd secret did not cover the wider scope, ie the attack upon the church, not just the individual person of the Pope. This view was discussed in our phone conversation. Here's the info he sent me and please keep in mind that though all has been revealed as the email shows the 3rd secret is still open to interpretation:

Note: I see some undertones in this message, the concern of the church that it needs to be wary of apparitions that warn of trouble in the church hierarchy...hmmm..I hope Mr Salbato posts tomorrow...I have a few questions about this portion of the email.

STM

No More Fatima Secrets, Says Cardinal

Book Quotes Sister Lucia

VATICAN CITY, SEPT. 24, 2007 (Zenit.org).- There is no fourth secret of Fatima and the third secret in its entirety has already been revealed, says Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone.

This was confirmed Friday at the official presentation of Cardinal Bertone's book, "L'Ultima Veggente di Fatima," (The Last Fatima Visionary). The Pope's secretary of state wrote the book, released in Italian last May, with the collaboration of journalist Guiseppe De Carli.

Benedict XVI wrote the volume's introduction, saying, "Through the experience of this humble nun one can see the role of the Virgin Mary who accompanies the Christian with a maternal hand."

During the presentation, Archbishop Loris Capovilla, Pope John XXIII's private secretary, said that there is no fourth secret. He is the only living witness who was present when John XXIII opened and read the third secret in 1959 at Castel Gandolfo.

The 91-year-old prelate said: "It never even entered my mind that there could be a fourth secret. No one ever said such a thing to me nor did I ever claim any such thing."

History

The third secret is the part of the Virgin Mary's message given on July 13, 1917, to Lucia dos Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto.

The first and second parts of the messages given to Lucia by the Blessed Virgin were written down in 1941. In 1944, the third part was written down. In 1957, it was given to the Holy See for the Pope to read at his discretion.

In 2000, Pope John Paul II, who read the third secret for the first time after his assassination attempt in 1981, decided to publish its contents to end growing speculation.

Cardinal Bertone, now secretary of state, was John Paul II's envoy to Sister Lucia, and at that Pope's request, he collected the definitive testimony of the Carmelite nun.

Published

Cardinal Bertone and Sister Lucia met three times from 2000 to 2003. The nun died two years later, Feb. 13, 2005, at age 97.

Their conversations -- the subject of the book -- deal with the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, the prophecies of war and the future of Russia, the enigma of the third secret, and theories about an alleged fourth secret about the end of the world and supposed guilt in the Vatican.

In the book, the chronological reconstruction of the events is accompanied by a rigorous examination of the documents, including the handwritten pages of Sister Lucia, the integral text of the three parts of the message, and the theological interpretation of then Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Monsignor Ambrogio Spreafico, who accompanied Cardinal Bertone to Fatima for one of his meetings with Sister Lucia, spoke at the presentation of the book.

"On April 27, 2000," he said, "I personally accompanied him to the Carmelite convent in Coimbra and he gave Sister Lucia the four handwritten pages regarding the third secret. She attentively verified them, recognizing the pages written in her own hand 56 years earlier, and she recognized the paper as well."

Mariology

During the presentation of his book, Cardinal Bertone reflected on the role of Mariology and the caution used by the Church in analyzing reportedly supernatural occurrences.

"The criterion for discernment of the truth of private revelation is its orientation to Christ and the Gospel,” he explained. He added that once this has been established, one can then look to other important elements such as popular piety and religious practice.

Cardinal Bertone noted that sometimes there is a notable "spreading of supposedly supernatural messages," often with apocalyptic undertones.

"We need to avoid the danger of a 'Church of apparitions,' distrustful of the Church’s hierarchy," he said.

Speaking about the message of Fatima, the Pope's secretary of state said: "The profitable meeting of charisma and institution, of the Trinitarian mystery and the Christological mystery, is realized in the message. Mary, sign of God’s mercy, does not leave Christians alone.

"She gives us indications like a road sign to fight the battle between good and evil. Mary is the icon of God’s tenderness for us.

"It is something that taps into and impregnates contemporary history like no other Marian apparition, and the density of its message touches the hearts of mankind, inviting to conversion and the shared responsibility for the salvation of the world."

"The Last Fatima Visionary" is being translated into six languages and will soon be released in Spanish, Portuguese and English.

[edit on 9/25/2007 by seentoomuch]

I have been a Catholic for sixty years and I am still a staunch believer. To those who have commented on the corruption in the Church I would have to agree......but that doesn't change the message of the Church. Jesus Christ was the only perfect member of the Church. Beyond Him it has been run by human beings, with all of their inherent faults and weaknesses.
The Catholic Church is no more or less susceptible to corruption than any other organization run by humans. What you have to go back to is the original message of Jesus Christ which is the essence of the Church.
Having said all of that I am still very skeptical that the full content of the third secret of Fatima has ever been released.

I understand that you talked to an aquaintance of Sr Lucia, but I still can't get my mind around how her chin would protrude so much and how her smile somehow became inverted over the years. That just seems so odd. I haven't seen any other pictures of people who's facial features have changed so much over their lives.

The teeth, I could buy - Dentures.
Facial shape is generally similar, kind of boxy.
But the chin and smile just seem very strange.
Oh yeah and the lips went from full to thin... also strange.

Who knows.

Just read thru and after spending much time studying the pictures and taking into account aging, nose growth and various other possibilities attributed to age I have to say that it's not the same person. For the first several minutes I thought Pal was a bit wacky but after a few more minutes it was undeniable. Teeth do not shorten and straighten and even protruded the first chin would not be as pronounced as the second. There are similarities in eyebrow and cheek creases but it's a case of the most major parts not lining up.

No offense intended at all but are you all sure your not just accepting this because you don't want to believe that it's possible. Your beloved Catholic church deceiving you like that?

I don't for a minute believe they would kill someone off but passing one nun as another, well those pictures tell me an undeniable story and I have no stake here so it matters little to me if it is the same person or not. They could easily send the original off to a remote village monastery somewhere to live out her days.

I know you all want to exhale a collective sigh of relief but I just can't accept it. Think about it, you were all dead sure on page one and now completely changed of mind?

Hmmm....Would the Catholic church do something like this if they thought it was best for the body of believers?

My apologies for going off topic, but I love this thread!!!!!! Paleesha, SeenTooMuch, and everyone else participating, thank you for a reasonable, logical, courteous, civilized and brilliant discussion. I've been following from the beginning and the evolution of this thread has been very informative and fascinating.