PROOF: Time is an ILLUSION!

i wish my perception would update already!! i hate percieving time as we know it... coz i still have 3 hours left at work and in my opninion thats too long... i should tell my boss time doesnt exsist therefore i can go home... i wonder how she'd take it... ...

Show your boss my thread. Then go home!
-----------

Ok, so our perception is due to change in a few years. There's one problem, however. Slight problem. Most of us will have to die first, and get reborn WITH the new perception in 4th density (most of us will be dead within the next few years, I don't mean WHEN we die, I mean after we SOON die!)

You know why that really sucks? The FUNNEST part would be to SURVIVE the upcoming "stuff" and while being ALIVE switch over to 4th density. All of a sudden you can easily manipulate matter/timer/space with your mind... after never being able to do this all your life!

It won't be so "cool" for the people born into these abilities, it'll be just normal and "every day" junk like taking out the trash is for you right now. The only people who will be in total awe of this are the ones who LIVED in 3rd density and survived the shift to 4th! It's like being a snail all your life and evolving into an adult human, and remembering your snail life. You'll be so amazed at your new perception you'll practically have a stroke. That's what will happen to those who survive and get "upgraded" to 4th density. Same huge jump!

So I kinda hope I live just to get that shocking feeling when physicality becomes variable. Though I try not to care too much so if I have to die, I won't be too pissy about it...

yeah i'd love to survive the shift into the 4th density without having to go through the whole death # again... although our higher selves will be aware of the whole thing our conciousness wont be able to comprehend it when we are re-born... what i'd hate is for everyone else to survive the # when it hits the fan and have the 4th density awareness but you surviving and for some reason being left out of it... a third density guy in a 4th density world...

Well I have good news and bad news. The bad news is, there will be many who will simply NOT move on to 4th density, as they are not ready. Not because someone prevents them from moving on, but simply because they have not learned/understood THIS density enough yet to experience further increases of perception. They simply cannot skip to 4th grade without completing 3rd because they will be unable to perform at all in 4th. It is a natural thing, so don't think there's "powers" up there blocking you from moving on till you learn your lessons. Nah, it's just impossible, naturally...

Ok but the GOOD news is, those who do not move on to 4th density, will NOT live in a 4th density world. You'll still be on 3rd density with the rest of your 3rd density buddies.

This does pose a question in my mind. Is this what was meant by "the rapture" in the Bible? When many are seen to disappear, as they shift densities? The density part was left out...
I can guarantee that religious people have a LOT to learn, because when you move to 4th density, you no longer have a need to believe in a God as you now will have a clue. Just like you don't believe the stork is how babies are made, 4th density population will know that God is NOT how everything exists also. It is a 3rd density illusion.

So if you're too hung up on religion, don't expect to get yer ass "raptured" anytime soon. The true "Christians" are those who seek truth, as the term "Christianity" has been completely corrupted and associated with religion. I don't know if that's even the word to use for those who shift consciousnesses. I'd just say truth seekers.

Religious people do not seek truth, they accept things on faith and on someone's word using their "belief". They have absolutely NO idea what the truth is, but they believe they know. That's where the illusion comes in. So if you are perfectly fine with illusion, that is where you will remain, as the truth will be very hard to accept.

So as you can see, no one forces you to go anywhere, people go/stay where they fit best. Those who love illusion, care not for objective truth, will live in a suitable environment. Those who want ONLY truth and use their minds to figure things out instead of taking someone's word for it or just falling into belief, will ALSO live in an environment suitable for them.

So yup the GOOD news is you won't ever have to live in a density/level that you are not suitable for. The bad news is, wanting to go to 4th grade isn't enough to actually get you there, as you already know. You must get yourself there, no one can do it for you.

I'm not sure if i'd be ready as yet... alot of my friends are convinced they will be 'upgraded' into the fourth density... now i understand the 4th density and all (i.e the concept of time not exsisting) but something insde me tells me i have more to learn about this density first...

Originally posted by specialasianX
I'm not sure if i'd be ready as yet... alot of my friends are convinced they will be 'upgraded' into the fourth density... now i understand the 4th density and all (i.e the concept of time not exsisting) but something insde me tells me i have more to learn about this density first...

The best advice is just relax, and learn. If you were to go to 4th density without being ready for it, you WOULD be absolutely devastated and lost and you'd hate it there. Remember, there is a balance of negative/positive aspects in ANY reality or density, so don't think it'll be like everyone having superpowers and all is fine and well. If you are not ready, you do NOT want to go there.

What I'm not sure about is this. If you do not go to 4th density when the realm-border crossing wave will approach around 2012 and make this shift possible, does this mean you have to continue incarnating to 3rd density for the duration of the next grand cycle until the wave once again returns? Or can you go to 4th density at absolutely any time when you're ready. That part I'm not sure of yet. I can maybe tolerate a FEW more lives on 3rd density (though I'll end up being very cranky and upset by this ) but having to spend hundreds of thousands of years here (from 3rd density perspective it's that amount of time, don't forget time only exists in our density here) would be REALLY UPSETTING!

I'd have to throw a tantrum at whoever makes this # up! You know that all-encompassing, omnipresent universal consciousness? Well I'd personally kick its ass if I could for making me spend another grand cycle on 3rd density. The insolence! Who does the consciousness think it is? God? HA! *puts up a fighting stance*.

One of the fundamental principles of the universe is the Law of Nothing, that "nothing comes from nothing." If there is something, it must have come from something else. Therefore, stuff cannot be created out of nothing. Matter and energy can be transformed, but as a whole, they are conserved, neither created nor destroyed

Just wanted to post my 2 cents, take it for what its worth!

This proof was a good idea, but unfortunately the conclusion does not logically follow from the premises given. Here is your argument in premise/conclusion form:

Premise 1: Time exists (we assume it does to start the argument)
P2: The universe is shaped of energy.
P3: You can't get something out of nothing.
P4: Energy has been around forever (infinity years old), since you can't get something from nothing.
P5: Since everything has been around forever, there is an eternity behind us in the past and an eternity in ront of us.
P6: Nothing could be formed of energy because it would have to wait forever, since there is an eternity ahead of it.
P7: If time exists, we could not exist, because we would have to wait forever.
P8: We exist.
Conclusion: Time does not exist

At first glance, this seems like a plausible proof. Excellent idea and very creative.

However, for an argument to be true, there must be two things. A) All the premises are true. B) The conclusion logically follows from the premises.

Now, the first premise (P1: Time does exist), is not controversial. Also, the second premise (P2: The universe is made of energy) is not controversial.

The biggest problem with the proof, however, is the assertation that you can't get something out of nothing. This is one of the key premises of lilblam's proof. This assertation is based on the laws of thermodynamics - within the realm of our universe. Obviously, we must follow this rule - it is a basic law of physics. The creation of our universe lies OUTSIDE this realm bounded by physical rules (aka a god/creator may not have to abide by rules that he himself CREATED), therefore if there is some deity/god/creator maybe he could create something out of nothing. In other words, lilblam is assuming that if there is some deity/creator that that creator also must follow our physical laws. However, this doesn't make logical sense because if a creator/god made our universe, and the laws inside it, certainly he would be above basic laws such as the law of thermodynamics. This would be equivalent to saying that the creator of our universe would be bound by the law of gravity, which you can see would be absurd. In other words, the idea that you can't get something from nothing is what we observe here in our universe. Why would the creator be bound by this law that he/she/it created? Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the idea that a creator could make something out of nothing. (The term creator is used very loosely here btw, my statements above don't rely on the idea of a creator but I used that wording to make for easier reading).

P4, the idea that energy has been around forever, hinges on P3, that you can't get something out of nothing. Since we have shown P3 is false, P4 is false as well. Same goes for P5 (hinges on P4), P6 (hinges on P5), etc... Since P3 is false, the rest of the proof is false and well, and the conclusion does not follow.

Some may question the idea of time not being around forever. After all, if time was not around forever (meaning, it had a starting point), than the question everyone wants to know is, what happened before that? The question, at its root, is because people fail to recognize how closely related space and time actually are. Einstein's theory of spacetime shows that space and time are extremely closely related. Time is just another law of our universe - outside of our universe, time may not exist. After all, many religions talk about their creators living outside of time. Therefore, since time is a product of our universe, before the universe was created, there was nothing before. Not even the concept of time. So this means asking the question of what happened before doesn't make sense, because there was no such concept as "before" until our universe came to be with its physicals laws and spacetime.

Now I won't deny, however, the idea that time is an illusion. Time itself is a man-made perception of the universe. Man's perception of time comes from man's inability to perceive all events happening instantly, thus our mind compartmentalizes it nicely for us. However, time does exist (as far as we can tell), but our perception of it is what makes it an illusion.



[Edited on 20-1-2004 by DeltaFive]

Simple. First of all, you'd have to assume that the CREATOR has been around forever, because HE HIMSELF could not come out of nothing, without some other CREATOR creating him, correct? If there is NO creator and just NOTHING, a GOD could not all of a sudden pop out of NOTHING. So we now know he'd have to be eternal. Fine.

If he is eternal and exists, that still means he could never create anything. Because if he IS eternal (which he MUST be for anything to exist even himself) then he'd ALSO have to wait around for eternity before he could CREATE anything, and we know he cannot wait around for eternity.

Now, an important note. The reason GOD HIMSELF cannot wait for infinity is not because of some physics law etc. It is simply because the definition of infinity is NEVER ENDS, so he'd NEVER STOP WAITING. GOD cannot NEVER STOP WAITING and STOP WAITING at the same time, that'd create a paradox. It's like saying he exists but doesn't exist at the same time. Huh?

So as you can see, even with creator God, time still has no business existing

But of course, if the CREATOR GOD is eternal, and time does NOT exist, then that means it could possibly be true and a TIMELESS GOD does exist and create stuff? Well....

We must be eternal also then. That means we could not possibly have a creator. Because if time doesn't exist, there was never a period of time we were created. We either always existed or we never existed and never will. Because the existance of EVERYTHING permeates ALL TIMES, both future and past because time as we know simply doesn't exist. Can you see where I am going with this? I'm saying that CREATION only exists when time exists. When time is out of the question, that means anything that exists has ALWAYS existed and ALWAYS WILL, and everything is absolutely known about its infinite existance at all "times".

I know it's confusing, but with our current perception time seems to exist, so the idea of a GOD makes sense. When you have no time, the idea of a CREATOR also disappears... you cannot create something in a timeless state. Anything that you THINK you created, has always existed. Think about it carefully! So neither God, nor TIME exist, and both will seem absulutely absurd to those who are in 4th density.

Hope that made sense, if not, READ IT AGAIN! *hides*


[Edited on 20-1-2004 by lilblam]

Cool, more stuff to talk about =)


Simple. First of all, you'd have to assume that the CREATOR has been around forever, because HE HIMSELF could not come out of nothing, without some other CREATOR creating him, correct? If there is NO creator and just NOTHING, a GOD could not all of a sudden pop out of NOTHING. So we now know he'd have to be eternal. Fine.

The problem with this response is that you are trying to apply notions from our universe - mainly time - and apply that to an entity OUTSIDE our universe. You are assuming that time exists outside our universe. However, science shows that time is merely a product of our universe - time wouldn't exist outside it. Therefore, you can't apply terms such as "eternal" and "before" and "suddenly" to an entity/creator that would be outside the bounds of the time we experience! Also, saying something could not come from nothing assumes time exists, and is also applying rules we experience in our universe to a diety OUTSIDE these rules. Maybe even logic is a construct of this universe?

The main problem with the argument is you are saying that God and creator must exist in time. However, time is merely a product of our universe. This is shown in the general theory of relativity - there is no such thing as ABSOLUTE time, as it is relative to the observer. Someone approaching close to the speed of light will experience less time than an observer standing still. Time is merely a part of our universe - a creator/diety would be outside these laws ! Again, using terms such as "before", "infinite", or that God is "eternal" is not accurate, because God or a creator would obviously be outside the law of time, just as he is not affected by the laws of gravity or any physical laws. Terms such as before, infinite, eternal could not apply to a being outside the realm of time.

Interesting discussion =)

Originally posted by DeltaFive
Cool, more stuff to talk about =)


Simple. First of all, you'd have to assume that the CREATOR has been around forever, because HE HIMSELF could not come out of nothing, without some other CREATOR creating him, correct? If there is NO creator and just NOTHING, a GOD could not all of a sudden pop out of NOTHING. So we now know he'd have to be eternal. Fine.

The problem with this response is that you are trying to apply notions from our universe - mainly time - and apply that to an entity OUTSIDE our universe. You are assuming that time exists outside our universe. However, science shows that time is merely a product of our universe - time wouldn't exist outside it. Therefore, you can't apply terms such as "eternal" and "before" and "suddenly" to an entity/creator that would be outside the bounds of the time we experience! Also, saying something could not come from nothing assumes time exists, and is also applying rules we experience in our universe to a diety OUTSIDE these rules. Maybe even logic is a construct of this universe?

The main problem with the argument is you are saying that God and creator must exist in time. However, time is merely a product of our universe. This is shown in the general theory of relativity - there is no such thing as ABSOLUTE time, as it is relative to the observer. Someone approaching close to the speed of light will experience less time than an observer standing still. Time is merely a part of our universe - a creator/diety would be outside these laws ! Again, using terms such as "before", "infinite", or that God is "eternal" is not accurate, because God or a creator would obviously be outside the law of time, just as he is not affected by the laws of gravity or any physical laws. Terms such as before, infinite, eternal could not apply to a being outside the realm of time.

Interesting discussion =)

I think you might've missed my point...
I just started out saying that to get a few things clear that even if TIME did exist, God could still never CREATE anything.

Then, I asked, can GOD exist if TIME does NOT exist at all? And I then proceeded to demonstrate that no, sadly (boo-hoo ) he can't!

Why? Because when there is no time, there is no creation. When you CREATE something, it means it didn't exist BEFORE you created it, and only exists AFTER it has been created. But because there is no time, NOTHING can be created, and everything always is. Therefore, GOD cannot be CREATOR GOD as without TIME there is no CREATION!

Does that make sense? That's all I was trying to say...

So if there is no CREATOR, what possible reason would there BE for God to exist? If he cannot Create ANYTHING, nor can he interfere with anything (as that would violate free will), what other attributes could you possibly apply to him? That also means we exist independent of HIM, since he could not possibly have created us, as creation is impossible without time. Then he is no longer God! He is just everything that exists, just an overlying consciousness that permeates everything, and IS everything. So why would you WORSHIP everything? Since he is also you, you'd have to worship yourself, and the rock in front of you, and your gay uncle.

The idea of God as a "separate, all powerful entity that Created the Universe" cannot exist without TIME.

But let's go in a different direction. Let's say my "proof" that time doesn't exist isnt' really a proof and time DOES exist... let's try that one!

Fine, God exists, and time exists. Well that means HE pre-existed the universe, and created it out of nothing. The problem STILL exists with the fact that he could NOT be around forever before he created the universe (since time exists in this example, FOREVER also exists). So that means GOD cannot be eternal, if time exists. If he's not eternal, someone else had to create him. But you can go back in that chain VERY FAR but there will be a big problem. First, the chain of creation cannot be infinite if time DOES exist, because we already know that infinity cannot be reached nor surpassed, it never ends. Second, if it is NOT an infinite chain of creation, then that means someone had to come out of nothing.

The fact that SOMETHING cannot come out of NOTHING is a concept that only works if time works. But the problem is, that means God cannot exist even if time does exist as he cannot be A) Infinite and B) Created out of nothing.

If time does NOT exist, he cannot A) Create, as create is a time-based concept and B) Exist separately from everything else, since he is "part" of it all, because if he was separate that means he doesn't exist. Since there is EVERYTHING, then God must be part of the EVERYTHING. There can't be EVERYTHING, and then there's God, for the reasons I have shown above.

I REALLY hope to "God" that all that made sense lol. Just think really really hard on these concepts, they will be your every-day 4th density concepts!

I think you missed my point actually.... =)


The problem with your responses is that you assume the creator or god is bound by the laws of time that were created by him. A creator would not be bound by those laws ! Time is merely a part of our universe - just like 3 spatial dimensions, and the law of gravity, and law of thermodynamics, etc. - a creator would NOT be bounded by time, or any of these other laws!

When you CREATE something, it means it didn't exist BEFORE you created it, and only exists AFTER it has been created. But because there is no time, NOTHING can be created, and everything always is. Therefore, GOD cannot be CREATOR GOD as without TIME there is no CREATION!
This is exactly what I'm talking about - it is difficult to talk about a being such as a creator in our language because our language is designed for discourse regarded ideas in our universe. Sure, when you or I create something, there is a before and after. However, since god/creator exists OUTSIDE the realm of time as we know it, the idea of creation of universe, meaning the creation of the physical space time (

Looky here. Eternity is a concept as well as time. Think of eternity or infinity as a timeline that runs both forward and backwad constantly and never stops.

Time as we call here on earth, and what is on a watch is just calculating our rotations around the sun and on earth's axis.

There is also no such thing as nothing. The concept is abstract and is as difficult comprehending as infinity. There is always someting and there will always be something.

Time is an idea rather than fact. It is my belief that there are 6 dimensions and not four. the first three dimensions each have a corresponding dimension that relate in what place in time they are in...
1:4
2:5
3:6

This in turn will create another 3 dimensional plane out of the 4th, 5th, and 6th dimensions i.e time is also three dimensional. If they are not in sinc with each other than technically something can move forward backward left or right in time. Where it takes you, I dont know.

This theory of mine depends on the fact that time has been written and that all that is happening is that the 4th,5th, and 6th dimensions are steadily moving throught their three dimensional plane and dragging the first three dimension with it. If this is the case that would mean that matter is infinite and finite because it cannot be destroyed by the time lapse when the 4th,5th, and 6th dimensions start over again from the beginning.

If this theory were true that could mean that there are multiple dimensions or universes traveling through the same three dimensional time plane.

How can time not exist? You can only travel through time at 60 seconds per minute 60 minutes per hour 24 hours a day. It is possible to slow down time or even speed up time using enough energy however the energy required to do this would be too large to go anywhere at any faster or slower rate.

Therefore the only possible way to travel through time would be to jump to an alternate dimension which scientist now believe exist that is in another time period on the three d time plane.

I know its alot, thx for reading.

k, I can see what you're saying. But who said that "something cannot come out of nothing" is our law? Isn't that just common sense?

I gotta disagree on one thing. You say that time exists in our universe, but not outside. What I'm saying is, it doesn't exist in any universe, ever. And who told you there is something "outside" our universe? Space is also an illusion btw... the only reason we can't be anywhere at any time is because of "time". If there is no time, there is also no space, since our travel is restricted by the fact that we're bound by time. The illusion, I might add.

But that's not the point. If there is no time, and therefore everything that exists is absolutely eternal, then how can there possibly be a Creator God? You cannot create something that's eternal... what makes you think someone, somewhere, had to create anything?

You can't possibly then question me by saying "Well if not God, then where did the whole universe come from" because that implies time, and it didn't come from anything! It just is... everything just is. Everything is consciousness!

But I see where you're going with this, you're saying that I'm applying our universal laws to an entity that is boundless, and CREATED those laws. But the fact that something cannot come out of nothing isn't OUR law, it is logic 101. If something could come out of nothing, then that means "nothing" was never "nothing" to begin with, and would create a paradox. God cannot create paradoxes, now can he?

Damn you . . . (-:

Originally posted by lilblam
First, let's assume time DOES exist, since we can all observe it so well, and then we will get to our conclusion that in fact, it does NOT exist.

If time exists, let's see what we know about time. It goes from the PAST into the FUTURE as we observe motion around our universe. We do observe that it may slow down, and we have theories that we can even STOP it if we reach light speed. NONE OF THAT CONTRADICTS MY PROOF! Now remember, even if you have a time machine, this proof still absolutely HOLDS and no time machine can violate it.
**********************************

How old is the universe? Well our current universe is shaped out of energy, which might not be so long ago (Big Bang, whatever it was that shaped this universe). So how old is the energy then? It is exactly INFINITY years old (remember, we're assuming time exists for now). Why has it been around forever? Simple...

You can never get SOMETHING out of NOTHING. If there was ever NOTHING, there would ALWAYS be NOTHING. Because there is SOMETHING, that means there has always been SOMETHING. Don't forget, NOTHING means NOTHING/ZILCH/ZERO/NADA/BLANK, and doesn't mean a LITTLE BIT OF SOMETHING! Don't trip up on the words please.

Now we know that energy (out of which everything is formed) has been around forever. But then how does time not exist you ask? Well, because if time exists, then WE cannot exists, and in fact NOTHING would ever exist! Why? Simple... (here's the logical part, put on your thinking hats!)

If everything has been around forever, that means we have eternity behind us in the past, and eternity in front of us in the future. But we can NEVER have eternity behind us in the PAST, because that means we had to go through eternity to get WHERE WE ARE NOW. There's only one problem with that. WE CAN NEVER go through eternity. Eternity, simply means FOREVER. It means NEVER ENDS. That's right, we would first have to wait FOREVER before we could reach ANY TIME PERIOD. Because no matter what time period you are in, there will ALWAYS be eternity in the past, since we already know that energy had no beginning.

So, before ANYTHING would ever be formed out of energy, energy would first WAIT FOREVER (NEVER STOP WAITING) before shaping ANTHING. That's right, this means nothing could ever exist, as long as there is infinity of time behind it in the past. There CANNOT BE infinity of time behind us in the past, we can only wait a FINITE amount of time before being shaped out of energy or being located at ANY time period.

What does it all mean? It all means that time doesn't exist.

So let's wrap it up...

If time exists, then we know for a FACT that energy is eternal.
If energy is eternal, we must have eternity behind us in the past.
But we cannot have eternity behind us, because we can never GO THROUGH eternity to get where we are.
Because eternity means NEVER ENDS, so we'd STILL BE WAITING before being created out of energy.
By we I mean ANYTHING, so NOTHING would ever exist, it'd first have to wait eternity before it can be shaped.

As you can see, time cannot exist. If it does, nothing else can ever exist. There is absolutely NO TRICK in what I just said, and I am beind absolutely serious.

Why do we have the perception that time exists? That's a good question.. but I won't answer it in this thread, because perception CAN be an illusion. What we PERCEIVE has NOTHING to do with REALITY. We cannot perceive ultraviolet light, but our instruments prove it is real. We CAN perceive lifelike hologram that may appear real, but we KNOW is not. So once again, perception is NOT something to rely upon for "reality check".

ALSO, and I cannot back this up (yet), many members of ATS have informed me that physicists now are having problems including time in their formulas, and are getting rid of it left and right. Also, apparently it has been demonstrated that everything is an illusion in physics also, but I cannot back THAT up as well - look it up and see if that's true.

What I CAN back up is that time does not exist. That's ONE illusion I know for a FACT is an illusion.

lol sorry I forgot to do a big disclaimer. So here it is!
---------------------------------------------

If the proof of non-existance of time suddenly shatters someone's view of reality and the person is dumbfounded and becomes chronically depressed as all that he ever believed now turns out to be a lie, I don't care. Also, if the said person develops a sudden case of insanity, diarrhea, blindness, or suicidal/homocidal urges, I don't care. If this message results in complete destruction of your entire being and the possible murder of your family and friends, and eventually causes you to join a terrorist organization that detonates a nuke in a populated city as you all give up on life based on my proof, I don't care. If this leads to the annihilation of humanity, I don't care.

If I seemed just a bit insensitive and uncaring just then, I don't care! Get a lawyer and sue me!
------------------------------------------------------------

There, that seemed like a proper disclaimer. Now I feel much better about this

Admittedly, I didn't read all of this, but there is no past or future, IMO. There is only the present. Time is an illusion. All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There is no such thing as death, life is only dream, and we're the imagination of ourselves.

Originally posted by lilblam
But we can NEVER have eternity behind us in the PAST, because that means we had to go through eternity to get WHERE WE ARE NOW.

Not so. Atleast not the way I see it. I have a couple of examples or theories, call it what you want. We have always discribed time through geometry, movement and a way to systemise. It's math. It's a tool for explaining what is infact unexplainable. We use symbols to define something which is invisible and untouchable. Try to look uppon time as a circle. Any point on that circle is a beginning and an end, a point which sums up eternity. Whether you call that point now, then or when is really not relevant. But my point is this: No matter where you stand in the circle of time, eternity is both ahead of you and behind you, for the Now is the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. But eternity is relative if you speek of time as something absolute, like you just did when you called a span of time absolute. Eternity is relative to time just like a period is relative to time as a whole: an rather absolute and infact relative eternity. If eternity wasn't absolute in some aspects we simply wouldn't exist at all. For time is movement, developement, evolution, generation, degeneration and regeneration. Time exists. It's the type of eternity. The antitype of non-existance. It's what reminds us that we exist, if only for a short period of time. Each time. The same time. Anytime.......

Blessings,
Mikromarius

I mainly have a problem with the premis that says that there has been an infinity before us. This premis is empirically disproven. There is much evidence that suggests that the universe started with the Big Bang. We don't and can't know how (after the first 10^-43 second we know, but before that is a mystery) and why the Big Bang happened. It just did. I always like to look at it as Aristotle's unmoved mover. The thing that caused everything else without being caused itself.

The energy was created then, because with the Big Bang the rules for nature where created. One of those rules is that energy doesn't get destroyed or created.

Personally, I think time exists, but that there is no absolute time, only relative time. I think all processes are dynamic, they depend on change to exist. I agree with Heraclitus on this: "On those stepping into rivers staying the same other and other waters flow."

So, before ANYTHING would ever be formed out of energy, energy would first WAIT FOREVER (NEVER STOP WAITING) before shaping ANTHING.

If energy waited forever than wouldn't it still be waiting? After all it was you who said that forever is never stop waiting.
But i have to say your agrument is very interesting and it makes you think.

[Edited on 21-1-2004 by Eternal]