Are Homosexuals Christian, Can They Be Forgiven?

Originally posted by depth om
The issue of sin is black and white in Gods eyes. sin is death. It leads to hell.
However the gospel states that any who believe that Christ Jesus is the son of God and testify to it, they will be saved. According to Jesus and Gods word, all sins are forgiven through Christ. Those who sin after being saved simply won't inherit as much in Gods kingdom.

seems far from the benevolent and infinitely wise nature you seem to give this being.

and it's odd that it was in fact the figure of jesus that introduced the concept of hell into the system, it didn't exist at all in judaism and isn't mentioned once in the majority of the bible (better known as the OT)

and honestly, a just god wouldn't punish someone infinitely for a finite crime, would they?

Homosexuality is a sin in Gods eyes.

ok, then why are homosexuals born that way? why does god allow homosexuals to be born with an attraction to only their same gender if said being doesn't want them to act upon it?

it seems that god is incredibly sadistic in your view

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Madness, let's stop with all the OT quoting, and the this and that for just a moment. What is it that is really troubling you? What do you really want to know? If you like you can u2u me. I promise to do my best to help anyway I can. I don't know everything, but I can always pray for guidance or study up on specific situations.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by depth om
The issue of sin is black and white in Gods eyes. sin is death. It leads to hell.
However the gospel states that any who believe that Christ Jesus is the son of God and testify to it, they will be saved. According to Jesus and Gods word, all sins are forgiven through Christ. Those who sin after being saved simply won't inherit as much in Gods kingdom.

seems far from the benevolent and infinitely wise nature you seem to give this being.

and it's odd that it was in fact the figure of jesus that introduced the concept of hell into the system, it didn't exist at all in judaism and isn't mentioned once in the majority of the bible (better known as the OT)

and honestly, a just god wouldn't punish someone infinitely for a finite crime, would they?

Homosexuality is a sin in Gods eyes.

ok, then why are homosexuals born that way? why does god allow homosexuals to be born with an attraction to only their same gender if said being doesn't want them to act upon it?

it seems that god is incredibly sadistic in your view

A just God would punish like that. That's the severity of the situation. If you read and accept the Bible and Gods views, you come to understand the weight of the choices you make.The christian God despises sin all the same, a small sin is the same as a large one. Satan has a footing in this construct, God did not initiate the turn from perfection, man did. Those born with certain attributes must examine and weigh them in accordance to Gods word.

We all have an evil streak, we all accept things about ourselves that aren't "right". Just like a paedophile. Some accept it, others see it for what it is, perverted and unrighteous. Just like a serial killer, "It's just how he was born! He couldn't help it, he was inclined towards a certain action and CHOSE to follow through. Just because someone does it doesn't mean it's natural. There is no innocence in homosexuality.

Anyone can be saved though. Simply put, those who accept Christs' gift will have everlasting life, those who do not, inherit eternal death. This is the real issue at hand.

No matter what the sin though, anyone can be saved. Everyone who is saved continues to sin. It is our nature, a product of a choice we made. We sowed disobeyment, we reaped punishment from God. So a man could continue to behave a certain way and remain saved, but don't be surprised when you reap punishment for continuing certain activities without even asking God to relieve you of them.

Desire is the root of all evil not money. Instead of desiring worldy fulfillment, first desire God, then the worldly and spiritual rewards will follow.

[edit on 24-8-2007 by depth om]

janasstar, i didn't quote the OT, i just pointed out that hell is only mentioned in the NT.

Originally posted by depth om
A just God would punish like that. That's the severity of the situation.

no, an unfair god that believes in cruel and unusual punishment not fitting the crime would...

flatter god or be tortured for eternity, that's the severity of the situation

If you read and accept the Bible and Gods views, you come to understand the weight of the choices you make.

you can understand the ramifications of choices without some sort of big brother in the sky.

The christian God despises sin all the same, a small sin is the same as a large one.

yeah, then said being isn't JUST. that's actually quite unfair. having sex with a man = genocide (oh wait, god doesn't have a problem with that one)

Satan has a footing in this construct,

quite the scapegoat you have there...
was he working with the communists on it too?

God did not initiate the turn from perfection, man did. Those born with certain attributes must examine and weigh them in accordance to Gods word.

so you claim god created a being with free will... and that omniscient being would know exactly what said beings would do (though that makes no sense because it would rob from free will)... and that said being isn't at fault?

We all have an evil streak, we all accept things about ourselves that aren't "right".

your "right" isn't my "right"
you define love between two consenting adults who have natural desires to be wrong when it really causes no objective harm to anyone JUST BECAUSE A BRONZE AGE TEXT TELLS YOU SO.

Just like a paedophile. Some accept it, others see it for what it is, perverted and unrighteous.

i'm pretty sure the only people that accept pedophilia are pedophiles...

Just like a serial killer, "It's just how he was born! He couldn't help it, he was inclined towards a certain action and CHOSE to follow through. Just because someone does it doesn't mean it's natural. There is no innocence in homosexuality.

ok, you just made a false connection. i shouldn't even reply because you just compared some of my friends to serial killers...


homosexuals are born without desire towards the opposite gender, that is how it works. this act is natural, it's found throughout nature/

Anyone can be saved though. Simply put, those who accept Christs' gift will have everlasting life, those who do not, inherit eternal death. This is the real issue at hand.

no, that's just a bunch of crock spouted off to continue to subjegate populations with fear and stop them from thinking about what's really right and wrong.

have you ever considered looking at whether or not your system of morality is logical?

Desire is the root of all evil not money. Instead of desiring worldy fulfillment, first desire God, then the worldly and spiritual rewards will follow.

no, ignorance is the root of evil, just like your ignorance towards homosexuals.

[edit on 8/25/07 by madnessinmysoul]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
For it is written:
nasb.scripturetext.com...
26

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another,

This means women exchanged one entry for another which is exit only, and men did too.

Men abandoned it .. sheesh, what, were Women playing too hard to get? Did they give up and say " hey fellas i give up, lets just go at it with each other, your teeth sure are perdy " ?

It couldn't be. I think without condoms back then, Men reckoned, in Man's "brilliant logic and reasoning" (sarcasm) that having natural functions leads to unwanted pregnancies therefore children as well. Especially if you consider the importance of Heirs and Princesses back then, even for common folk, the daughters were given away in marriage etc. You cant be given away for marriage if you had a baby~! because you arent a virgin anymore.

So Man decided it would be in his best interest to go 'the other route'. Then, when he saw it worked, he decided the Woman wasn't even needed for this function, and then the hobby of Men on men was created, I bet.

Yes, this history must be accurate, a divine revelation lol. No one teaches this ...

[edit on 8/25/2007 by runetang]

well madness, your infallible logic seems to be your god.



Yes, sinners can be forgiven, and a sinner according to God is "one who has sinned." There is no major or minor sin, anything that is the opposite of god, it cannot come near him, Think repelling magnets, he repels sin. Those who accept the gift of Christ crucified, flip their poles, they are now speeding towards God!

It's more simple than the world makes it out to be. Everyone can go to God, There is no exception. But with our will, we choose. We choose to accept or deny.


[edit on 25-8-2007 by depth om]

[edit on 25-8-2007 by depth om]

We are not born Homosexuals,Just like we are not born Christains or Muslims. Just about anything you choose to do in your life you are not born with. This is the one thing in our life that we as humans have complete control over. We choose what we want to believe in. So murders think killing people is ok, and claim to be born that way does this mean since they were born this way then they should be pardoned. I think not. Like I stated before this is a choice of your own. You choose what you want to be attracted to. I will give an example. When I was young all I was attracted to was black girls. I would not let myself like any other race. It was a Choice of mine I even got to the point where I could see nothing good in the other race of women. So for most of my high school life I never even looked at another race. Does this mean I was born that way no because eventually I started to give other people chances and realized that they have very good a beautiful qualities just like my black women. You are not born anyway. You choice your life path, and most people choose the easy one. The only thing your born with is sin.

Iv also talked to many women that do not mess with men anymore, just for the simple fact that they were treated wrong in the passed. People choices paths for different reasons. I have a male friend that is so called Homosexual only because he feels that he never could communicate with a women like he can with a man. This does not mean he was born this way. He just choose.

Originally posted by depth om
well madness, your infallible logic seems to be your god.

no, i don't worship logic...

Yes, sinners can be forgiven, and a sinner according to God is "one who has sinned." There is no major or minor sin, anything that is the opposite of god, it cannot come near him, Think repelling magnets, he repels sin.

so he repels a lack of genocidal tendency?

It's more simple than the world makes it out to be. Everyone can go to God, There is no exception. But with our will, we choose. We choose to accept or deny.

we choose? it isn't really much of a choice: flatter god or burn in hell. and again, it's not much of a choice when there are countless other deities that are equally likely to exist or not exist

Mrknighttime32, for the future, please paragraph.

Originally posted by Mrknighttime32
We are not born Homosexuals,Just like we are not born Christains or Muslims.

you're wrong on how sexual preference is a choice, but you're right on the fact that we're all born as atheists.

Just about anything you choose to do in your life you are not born with.

who you are attracted to is NOT a choice

This is the one thing in our life that we as humans have complete control over.

yes, we have a choice in what we do... but not in WHO WE ARE ATTRACTED TO.

We choose what we want to believe in. So murders think killing people is ok, and claim to be born that way does this mean since they were born this way then they should be pardoned. I think not.

...not a single person has used that defense, ever. you're blurring the issue here, you're comparing love between two people of the same gender to MURDER.

Like I stated before this is a choice of your own. You choose what you want to be attracted to.

no, you aren't

I will give an example. When I was young all I was attracted to was black girls.

but did you choose to be attracted to girls?

I would not let myself like any other race. It was a Choice of mine I even got to the point where I could see nothing good in the other race of women. So for most of my high school life I never even looked at another race. Does this mean I was born that way no because eventually I started to give other people chances and realized that they have very good a beautiful qualities just like my black women.

this is preference over physical features, not preference over GENDER.
you don't seem to be hinting that you ever made a choice to be attracted to women

You are not born anyway. You choice your life path, and most people choose the easy one.

so you could just as easily be attracted to men as you are to women?
honestly, i've talked to them, women that are lesbians find no attraction to men, men that are homosexuals see nothing attractive in women. they feel nothing towards them but platonic feelings.

The only thing your born with is sin.

that seems to be contradictory to the teachings of the fictional character you call your messiah...

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Madness, May I interject something here? And you can take it or leave it. Your arguments are not with fellow man, nor theirs with you. I sense that you don't disbelieve in God, but that you are very angry at Him, because you have a misunderstanding and a distrust factor.
On my short time on ATS, I have picked up that you are extremely intelligent. And you seem to want someone of equal intelligence to show you bona fide proof that homosexuality is not a sin. I'm afraid that person won't be me, Although I am not judging. I am as prone to sin as the next person. It's just that I haven't found proof where it isn't, but have found reference where that it is.
One of the reasons I opened this thread was to hopefully open all avenues and viewpoints. What you take from them is up to you. But don't be so hard on yourself. And by all means, don't short change God. If I understand this book at all, (and I think I do) God knows our hearts. If you really believe this issue in your life is something that you have no control over; then trust God with it.
There is a scripture that says, "As a man believes in his own heart, so is he." God will meet you where you're at. Ppl think they have to clean up to approach God. Just remember, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." If Jesus is said to have suffered all temptations known to man, do you think He wouldn't understand homosexuality as well. He pleads our case for us. Give Him a chance. He does love you.
And to add one more thing, and I think this reference is in Romans. "There is therefor now, no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." That doesn't mean they're not subject to sin, but sometimes when we sin and then we ask for forgiveness for it; we still feel the guilt. That's condemnation. God's forgiven us for it, but we're still beating ourselves over the head with it. Kind of foolish, huh? :-)

[edit on 8/26/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by janasstar
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Madness, May I interject something here? And you can take it or leave it. Your arguments are not with fellow man, nor theirs with you. I sense that you don't disbelieve in God, but that you are very angry at Him, because you have a misunderstanding and a distrust factor.

....no, i outright just don't believe in god. when i argue in these types of discussion i'm more angry at the very narrow concept of god. it's a philosophically unsound limiting of an omnipotent being... in a way carl sagan put it best when he said people would rather be comfortable with their little god

On my short time on ATS, I have picked up that you are extremely intelligent.

thank you.

And you seem to want someone of equal intelligence to show you bona fide proof that homosexuality is not a sin. I'm afraid that person won't be me, Although I am not judging. I am as prone to sin as the next person. It's just that I haven't found proof where it isn't, but have found reference where that it is.

but you haven't any proof that it is, you have only found proof that BIGOTS said it was... my point here is that the bible is fallible on this issue, even from a rational theological standpoint

This is very sad. And if you truly read the bible you will see that God is not as simple as you say. Neither is the bible. Thats why we must ask for wisdom.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I'm still here to learn too. I learn new things about the bible nearly everyday. Well, maybe not that often.... but it definitely doesn't get boring.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

The only thing your born with is sin.

that seems to be contradictory to the teachings of the fictional character you call your messiah...

Whaaa? Jesus states we are all born with original sin. Are you trying to say we are born clean, or something else?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Personally Madness, I don't know you from Adam's housecat, But I believe the Lord has allowed me a little insight into your spirit and I find you to be slightly endearing. Inspite of the fact that at times you seem to be in relentless persecution of Christianity. At least that's what I originally thought. The only thing that keeps me talking and discussing with you, is that you ask questions. I admit that sometimes they are over my head. I am not a bible scholar. I don't read it for the same purposes that you do.
The typical Christian probably can't answer some of the question that you first put forth to me(not in this thread), because it really has nothing to do with the christian walk, per se. In some things, I may know more than the typical Christian, because I had a brilliant pastor who studied the original Greek and Hebrew texts, and was very spiritually inspired by God. But, unfortunately, I didn't get to hang out with him, nearly as long as I would have liked, because I had to move. So, in other areas, I may be lacking. But I did gain enough to read for myself. But I don't go off reading all these other religious manuscripts, mainly because they don't interest me like the bible does.
I tend to think some of the other Christians feel the same way about you. You may drive them to the point of hair-pulling and screaming, but they don't give up on you. Wonder why that is? Have you asked yourself that? Or do you think it's part of our job description? Nope. The bible indicates that if they don't receive the message, leave from there and shake the very dirt from your shoes. We're only required to give the message once. Ball is in your court Madness, you will have to make your own choices.

Originally posted by Mrknighttime32
This is very sad. And if you truly read the bible you will see that God is not as simple as you say. Neither is the bible. Thats why we must ask for wisdom.

i have truely read the bible... you'll just never say that i've truely read the bible until i've started agreeing with you on what you think it says.

Originally posted by depth om
Whaaa? Jesus states we are all born with original sin. Are you trying to say we are born clean, or something else?

the character of jesus repeatedly challenged the claim that we pay for the sins of previous generations. that's why he healed the sick and infirm. now, if we don't pay for the sins of our fathers... why must we pay for the sins of a pair of humans that were used in a biblical allegory and never existed?

Originally posted by janasstar
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Personally Madness, I don't know you from Adam's housecat, But I believe the Lord has allowed me a little insight into your spirit and I find you to be slightly endearing. Inspite of the fact that at times you seem to be in relentless persecution of Christianity

it is not persecution of christianity, i merely QUESTION it. persecution is a systematic mistreatment... i'm not mistreating christianity one bit, i'm merely treating it as i treat all beliefs that people hold

At least that's what I originally thought. The only thing that keeps me talking and discussing with you, is that you ask questions.

yep, that's in my nature. question all.

I admit that sometimes they are over my head. I am not a bible scholar. I don't read it for the same purposes that you do.

ah, but i've read the bible multiple times for multiple purposes...

But I don't go off reading all these other religious manuscripts, mainly because they don't interest me like the bible does.

you should still really get on it, they're actually, in my opinion, more interesting mythology than the christian texts... and in some ways a bit less ridiculous.

I tend to think some of the other Christians feel the same way about you. You may drive them to the point of hair-pulling and screaming, but they don't give up on you. Wonder why that is? Have you asked yourself that? Or do you think it's part of our job description? Nope. The bible indicates that if they don't receive the message, leave from there and shake the very dirt from your shoes. We're only required to give the message once. Ball is in your court Madness, you will have to make your own choices.

i made my own choice, i chose reason over superstitions... all of them
now, you seem to have not actually made a choice on the same level as i have. i chose to learn about and then renounce christianity, then i did the same with islam, hinduism, ba'hai, paganism, etc etc until i got down and thought i had settled with the last one left, buddhism... then i read a beautiful quote by siddharta and decided to renounce buddhism's spirituality but retain aspects of the philosophy....
however, you haven't learned about all these other faiths.

"the character of jesus repeatedly challenged the claim that we pay for the sins of previous generations. that's why he healed the sick and infirm. now, if we don't pay for the sins of our fathers... why must we pay for the sins of a pair of humans that were used in a biblical allegory and never existed?"


There were two humans at one point right?. They sinned, they bore mankind, man came from one family. Sin is passed through the flesh.

reply to post by janasstar



janasstar, I would give you an indepth reply but you already posted my answer in your first post intro to this thread. God never said except homosexuals. He sent his son to be sacrificed so all sinners can be saved. If your friend has accepted Christ then she is most certainly saved. And from what you say it sounds like you need to move your concerns over to lost people because she is in fine shape and her soul is well.....

Originally posted by depth om
There were two humans at one point right?. They sinned, they bore mankind, man came from one family. Sin is passed through the flesh.

no, the garden of eden myth is simply that, it's a myth.

and the character jesus argued completely against sin passing through the flesh.

Originally posted by ConstantlyWondering
reply to post by janasstar

 

janasstar, I would give you an indepth reply but you already posted my answer in your first post intro to this thread. God never said except homosexuals. He sent his son to be sacrificed so all sinners can be saved. If your friend has accepted Christ then she is most certainly saved. And from what you say it sounds like you need to move your concerns over to lost people because she is in fine shape and her soul is well.....

Hi and welcome. But if you had read further into the thread, you would see that I have said this very thing, myself, over and over. But, thank you for your input. It can't be said enough.

OOPS! Please excuse! I misread what you said. I see my error. Gotcha now. Thanx.

[edit on 8/27/2007 by janasstar]