Are Homosexuals Christian, Can They Be Forgiven?

Originally posted by janasstar


Well, she is acquainted with the Word, so I don't see what hitting her over the head with it would solve. She's a big girl. I have faith that this thing will work it's self out. without my interference.

So I think we have had a good discussion, and I think it has led me to say this, if she ever comes and says to you I think what I am doing is wrong and I want to stop, will you help me? be prepared to say yes

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by janasstar


Well, she is acquainted with the Word, so I don't see what hitting her over the head with it would solve. She's a big girl. I have faith that this thing will work it's self out. without my interference.

So I think we have had a good discussion, and I think it has led me to say this, if she ever comes and says to you I think what I am doing is wrong and I want to stop, will you help me? be prepared to say yes

If I am asked, I will do what I can for my friend. She is always in my prayers. Among other loved ones.

Well folks! You can look for this forum to bite the dust. The Mod's have seen to stick it in a place where it is not likely to be seen by the people who most need to see it. I begged them to reconsider, but got no answer. Until this happened, This was one of the hottest topics opened today! SorrY! I tried. Jana

I don't think it's dead yet, so don't count it out before it's time.

I'm going to give my honest opinion to your question.

Your friend is saved (according to Christian belief). She has accepted Christ into her life, and I personally don't think her sexual status will come into consideration. Let me explain why...

In the ten commandments, The only sexuality commandment, Thou shall not commit adultery.... Refers to married people having a sexual relationship outside of marriage. If you want to go loosely, it means sex should not happen outside the marriage bed. So, even in the loosest sense doesn't mean homosexuality (unless life partners cheat on each other). And since (if you are to go according to the bible) God carved these rules in stone tablets... I tend to follow the ten commandments as the unarguable, unwaivering truth. The rest of the bible, hell all of the bible, was god dictating to man, and man repeating what they understand. How do we know for sure, God honestly decreed damnation to homosexuals and it is not some ancient homophobic putting his spin and opinion into the bible? We can't forget that humans are fallible, and god is not.

I suppose you can argue that God always meant marriage to between a man and a woman... but consider this, when the bible was written, the most current addition to it was around 2000 years ago, approx. Back then, famine, plague, war, and disaster was an everyday worry and occurrence. It wasn't an uncommon thing for a woman to birth 6 children and lose 3 before the age of 5. So even IF God then said homosexuality was a sin, how can we be so sure that he feels the same way now? Back then, it's possible that homosexuality was a choice. I've read that when an animal (which lets face it, we are... despite argument that we aren't) gets to be overpopulated, some of the species turn to homosexuality, as to regulate population. With other animals it's a genetic defect (which doesn't mean it's bad, just out of the norm) so why couldn't that be possible for humans as well.

My whole point is this... there was no 11th commandment on that tablet, that said Thou shalt not life partner with the same sex. Those set in stone (literally) commandments will not change, however it's very possible that the rest can, or possible be some author's reflection on his own personal beliefs and not decreed by God at all.

Chew on that, before you personally damn anyone to hell. And remember, the judgment doesn't lie with you, but God, who is fair, wise, just, and merciful.

Homosexuals are not Christian by default, only when they accept the Lord Yeshua.

Then they are Christian, complete in their Homosexuality.

You see, being against Homosexuality is a Jewish Practice that was carried over into the early-Christian times by the apostles like Paul who were preaching to Greeks and 'Gentiles', while the other apostles were back at home where people already knew that the natural order of sexuality was man banging woman for result of children. not man banging man for result of pleasure.

but let me ask you, do we not ALL do things for pleasure in one way or another, however we define the word pleasure, that may not be the natural order of things, yet something we go out of our way to do, even if its something small and relatively harmless, for our personal pleasure? if you say you don't you're a liar! or a monk!

and so this anti-gay message, that gay is worse than, gay

Originally posted by JessicaS
I don't think it's dead yet, so don't count it out before it's time.

I'm going to give my honest opinion to your question.

Your friend is saved (according to Christian belief). She has accepted Christ into her life, and I personally don't think her sexual status will come into consideration. Let me explain why...

In the ten commandments, The only sexuality commandment, Thou shall not commit adultery.... Refers to married people having a sexual relationship outside of marriage. If you want to go loosely, it means sex should not happen outside the marriage bed. So, even in the loosest sense doesn't mean homosexuality (unless life partners cheat on each other). And since (if you are to go according to the bible) God carved these rules in stone tablets... I tend to follow the ten commandments as the unarguable, unwaivering truth.
So even IF God then said homosexuality was a sin, how can we be so sure that he feels the same way now? Back then, it's possible that homosexuality was a choice.

My whole point is this... there was no 11th commandment on that tablet, that said Thou shalt not life partner with the same sex. Those set in stone (literally) commandments will not change, however it's very possible that the rest can, or possible be some author's reflection on his own personal beliefs and not decreed by God at all.

Chew on that, before you personally damn anyone to hell. And remember, the judgment doesn't lie with you, but God, who is fair, wise, just, and merciful.

Sorry, I had to remove part of your quote. Thank you for your refreshing viewpoint and not letting the forum die yet. Although I still think it's in a ill fitting place. I think your views will bring a lot of comfort to a lot of people struggling with this issue.
One thing I wanted to touch on in your statement, was; Where did you get the idea that I was condemning anyone to hell? I think this was all about me saying just the opposite. I am no one's judge.

Originally posted by janasstar
Are Homosexuals Christian, Can They Be Forgiven?

Two part question, it seems to me....

#1 - Probably some are and others are not...Christianity and sexual preference don't literally seem to be dependent upon one another for qualification...

#2 - Forgiven for what?

Love is love is love is love...
"~)

Good thread, BTW...

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by janasstar
Are Homosexuals Christian, Can They Be Forgiven?

Two part question, it seems to me....

#1 - Probably some are and others are not...Christianity and sexual preference don't literally seem to be dependent upon one another for qualification...

#2 - Forgiven for what?

Love is love is love is love...
"~)

Good thread, BTW...

vERY GOOD POINT, AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT, i WOULD LIKE TO SAY HERE THAT i HAVE E-MAILED MY FRIEND AND INVITED HER TO JOIN ats. i THINK IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO GET HER PERSONAL INPUT HERE. sHE WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE THE MAIN FOCAL POINT, BUT JUST A REFERENCE TO MY POINT. bUT SOME HAVE ZEROED IN ON HER, SO i WOULD LIKE TO GIVE HER THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK FOR HERSELF. wILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT i HEAR FROM HER. sTAY POSTED. Sorry about the all caps, I just realized they were on. It's just too much to go back and re-type. Please forgive. Not shouting.

I think everyone is born with burdens. To say people are born gay and so it is ok in the eyes of the lord is a false statement. Personally I think gay can be biological and or psychological, but the same thing can be said about every other sin. If a person kills and can’t stop themselves is it ok to kill? If a person lusts and cannot stop, is it a biological or psychological thing, and does it really change the fact it is a sin.

Getting back to the burden thing, these burdens are our own personal crucifixes that we must carry through life, and how we carry them is what makes us worthy in the eyes of the lord.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I think everyone is born with burdens. To say people are born gay and so it is ok in the eyes of the lord is a false statement. Personally I think gay can be biological and or psychological, but the same thing can be said about every other sin. If a person kills and can’t stop themselves is it ok to kill? If a person lusts and cannot stop, is it a biological or psychological thing, and does it really change the fact it is a sin.

Getting back to the burden thing, these burdens are our own personal crucifixes that we must carry through life, and how we carry them is what makes us worthy in the eyes of the lord.

You strike me as a very wise person. I think you probably have had many burdens to bear yourself. That's what makes us wiser. Would ya mind if I add you as friend?

Originally posted by JessicaS
My whole point is this... there was no 11th commandment on that tablet, that said Thou shalt not life partner with the same sex. Those set in stone (literally) commandments will not change, however it's very possible that the rest can, or possible be some author's reflection on his own personal beliefs and not decreed by God at all.

Chew on that, before you personally damn anyone to hell. And remember, the judgment doesn't lie with you, but God, who is fair, wise, just, and merciful.

Jessica,
As you say the bible does not have 11th commandment, and I not a bible scholar, but here are two quick passages that kind of make it a no no. Also since marriage in the bible is a man to woman thing it also opens the door for other sins.

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Now both “nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind” are associated with homosexuality.

Also,
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

You can select what part of the bible you are willing to believe and or follow, but I think you are rolling the dice. Personally I do not care, but as the bible goes it is rather straight forward even though people want to justify their homosexuality with the bible by arguing the meaning or lack of meaning of passages. This doesn’t make a gay person a greater sinner than me, and as you said it will all be up to god in the end, but it behooves a person to literally follow the bible as best they can instead of justifying their actions by interpreting the bible in a way that makes their actions ok.

Originally posted by janasstar
[
You strike me as a very wise person. I think you probably have had many burdens to bear yourself. That's what makes us wiser. Would ya mind if I add you as friend?

Sure, anytime

Originally posted by janasstar

One thing I wanted to touch on in your statement, was; Where did you get the idea that I was condemning anyone to hell? I think this was all about me saying just the opposite. I am no one's judge.

Janasstar-- I wasn't refering to you, as in you as a person, but the general you, meaning those who think homosexuality means a straight ticket to damnation. I'm sorry if you felt I was talking to you. I really wasn't.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Jessica,
As you say the bible does not have 11th commandment, and I not a bible scholar, but here are two quick passages that kind of make it a no no. Also since marriage in the bible is a man to woman thing it also opens the door for other sins.

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Now both “nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind” are associated with homosexuality.

Also,
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13)

You can select what part of the bible you are willing to believe and or follow, but I think you are rolling the dice. Personally I do not care, but as the bible goes it is rather straight forward even though people want to justify their homosexuality with the bible by arguing the meaning or lack of meaning of passages. This doesn’t make a gay person a greater sinner than me, and as you said it will all be up to god in the end, but it behooves a person to literally follow the bible as best they can instead of justifying their actions by interpreting the bible in a way that makes their actions ok.

To take the entire bible literally seems to me as an extreme way of living. Remember the quote you wrote, was written by ancient man, who was under the impression that God said this. How do we know for sure that this was really God, or his own opinion? How do we know anything in the bible is outrightly true?

My point personally is this, there were tablets god inscribed... with the ten commandments. These tablets, I think existed, and are probably hidden for safety reasons. I do put some faith that God actually inscribed them, due to the fact that as children, we seem to know with out being told those actions are bad. It's almost instinct. The rest.... how much is fear of difference, how much is God's decree, how much of it privative man's way of explaining the "unexplainable"?

Personally to believe it's all God's decree, is putting to much blind faith in man. But that's my two pennies.

Originally posted by JessicaS

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Jessica,

You know I rarely out-and-out pick on anybody for anything, but i find your choice in signatures, very offensive. Why is it a hate crime if you pick on races of color but not against the white man? Don't get me wrong, I'm more cherokee Indian than I am white, and it may be somewhat off topic; but it's right there staring everybody in the face.

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Originally posted by JessicaS

To take the entire bible literally seems to me as an extreme way of living. Remember the quote you wrote, was written by ancient man, who was under the impression that God said this. How do we know for sure that this was really God, or his own opinion? How do we know anything in the bible is outrightly true?

My point personally is this, there were tablets god inscribed... with the ten commandments. These tablets, I think existed, and are probably hidden for safety reasons. I do put some faith that God actually inscribed them, due to the fact that as children, we seem to know with out being told those actions are bad. It's almost instinct. The rest.... how much is fear of difference, how much is God's decree, how much of it privative man's way of explaining the "unexplainable"?

So you put full faith in two stone tablets and not the book that is written about them. I can see your point and to be honest I'm just debating what god said in the bible and not what I think. To answer your question, yes you must believe in ALL the bible for if your faith is strong then you would believe the bible is the word of god and god ensured that man wrote his words correctly. It may sound blunt but that is the way it is. Faith means you believe in something without the need for physical proof, and so to have faith in God and Jesus then their book is also real and correct.

You talked about "we seem to know without being told those actions are bad. It's almost instinct" does being gay seem instinctively bad? If I compared it to the law of nature, they cannot procreate, and so it is bad in that sense, but who knows, for me I’m heterosexual so it seems bad to me no matter how nice the gay person is or even if they are my friend I still find it instinctively bad, so I wonder if they find heterosexual couples instinctively bad?

Hey I know it sucks, but that is why Jesus came along to save us, so in the end put your faith in him and try to live a good life and I think it will workout, but what I think really means nothing when it comes to this.

Originally posted by janasstar

You know I rarely out-and-out pick on anybody for anything, but i find your choice in signatures, very offensive. Why is it a hate crime if you pick on races of color but not against the white man? Don't get me wrong, I'm more cherokee Indian than I am white, and it may be somewhat off topic; but it's right there staring everybody in the face.

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Actually, I am white, full blooded, and completely so. As is the band I am quoting. It's more about how the leaders of the US (which are dominately white males) feel about the rest of the world. My family in which I grew up, seem to mimic this behavior. To understand this song's context better, you need to actually listen to the entire lyric's or read them here. www.pcplanets.com...

It's not a knock on the "white man", but on how they act as a whole, which growing up in the community I have... I feel makes the best sense.

I have chosen this quote for this forum, cause that is virtually what we do here on a whole. We talk of things, and yet, don't really rise up as a whole and do something about it.... Not to mention, Dan Quayl is close to George W, in intelligence.

[edit on 8/20/2007 by JessicaS]

Originally posted by JessicaS

Originally posted by janasstar

You know I rarely out-and-out pick on anybody for anything, but i find your choice in signatures, very offensive. Why is it a hate crime if you pick on races of color but not against the white man? Don't get me wrong, I'm more cherokee Indian than I am white, and it may be somewhat off topic; but it's right there staring everybody in the face.

[edit on 08/11/2007 by janasstar]

Actually, I am white, full blooded, and completely so. As is the band I am quoting. It's more about how the leaders of the US (which are dominately white males) feel about the rest of the world. My family in which I grew up, seem to mimic this behavior. To understand this song's context better, you need to actually listen to the entire lyric's or read them here. www.pcplanets.com...

It's not a knock on the "white man", but on how they act as a whole, which growing up in the community I have... I feel makes the best sense.

I have chosen this quote for this forum, cause that is virtually what we do here on a whole. We talk of things, and yet, don't really rise up as a whole and do something about it.... Not to mention, Dan Quayl is close to George W, in intelligence.

[edit on 8/20/2007 by JessicaS]

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. It just seems that sometimes there is a lot of reverse racism going on. This looked like a form of it. Thank you. Jana

Originally posted by Xtrozero


So you put full faith in two stone tablets and not the book that is written about them. I can see your point and to be honest I'm just debating what god said in the bible and not what I think. To answer your question, yes you must believe in ALL the bible for if your faith is strong then you would believe the bible is the word of god and god ensured that man wrote his words correctly. It may sound blunt but that is the way it is. Faith means you believe in something without the need for physical proof, and so to have faith in God and Jesus then their book is also real and correct.

You talked about "we seem to know without being told those actions are bad. It's almost instinct" does being gay seem instinctively bad? If I compared it to the law of nature, they cannot procreate, and so it is bad in that sense, but who knows, for me I’m heterosexual so it seems bad to me no matter how nice the gay person is or even if they are my friend I still find it instinctively bad, so I wonder if they find heterosexual couples instinctively bad?

Hey I know it sucks, but that is why Jesus came along to save us, so in the end put your faith in him and try to live a good life and I think it will workout, but what I think really means nothing when it comes to this.

I see what your saying, but I have to argue about instinctively bad when it comes to homosexuals. I, personally am Heterosexual, which I couldn't imagine an sexual intimate relationship with anything other than a man, but I do not feel instictivly that it's wrong. How can love, be wrong, no matter what kind it is.

Most people, who I know and talk the way you do, do so because from little on, that is what they were taught. You can teach a child something is wrong when it's right, and something that's right when it's wrong. If it's done young enough, it can appear to be as if they thought it on their own. I know this from my own childhood, as well as the two children I care for now.

AS to the bible, I personally hold as much stock in it, as I would the Tora, Koran, and any other religious material I have read in my life. Anyone can come and say "This is gods word" and there will be people who will believe and have faith. I believe in god. I believe he sent his only son down to earth to save humanity. I believe it, because it's a re-occurring fact in most books i've read. However, the events change from different publications, as do the rules and laws. If you follow the bible that closely, do you not eat pork? Do you follow the Jewish holidays as well as the Christian ones? Are you aware of that some books of the Tora (old testament) didn't make it into the Christian bible, and different books of disciples didn't either?

It's the fact that there was someone who sat down and said, "This goes, This stays" that irks me about it's publication. They are all ancient books, written by ancient man. I take this into account, and I look at evidence that supports it. I don't believe the earth was created in 6 days.. I believe that's how god explained it to a primitive man, cause millions of years wouldn't make sense. I believe that there was an arc and that it did sail, and I do so, cause again it's re-occurring in most ancient text. I believe in things similar, cause the evidence shows it happened. I have faith as well, in God and Christ, but in a world full of danger and evil, I have to use my head to determine what is right and wrong. What I put unwavering trust in, is the 10 commandments. It's common sense, it's written in stone, and it's known in everyone's heart.

Originally posted by janasstar

Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me. It just seems that sometimes there is a lot of reverse racism going on. This looked like a form of it. Thank you. Jana

Your welcome.... I don't believe any racism is good, no matter what kind. I don't imagine God does either. I hope you have a great night, as I'm going to bed... Everyone take care.