A Challenge For Non-Believers Of Christianity

I'm a catholic. I am aware though, that the bible is largly a historic text. The most complete account of the human experiance in existance. It has many variations, though the message is not the same and would not be so even if they were the same text, word for word. It is worth what you can learn from it. Not what can be taught from it (doctrine of accepted interpretation). It is not for everyone, always. I dont think that it is wrong to dissagree with it. That is another part of it, if its relevant to you than good for you. If you can make it relevant to others, great for them. For those that do not agree, it is the way of life that they choose that keeps them from its secrets.

There is much confusion surrounding the idea of rebirth so please allow me to clear it.
When you speak of your soul, you think of this living being inside of your body. You believe you have a body and a soul that are temporarily intersected at a point in time, and then they separate.

You are the soul my friend, but according to Jesus, you are dead. Therefore you follow what your body tells you to follow. And you make decisions based on the results of your past decisions and what your emotions are telling you in the moment.
Using this system you try to fulfill what the body, essentially the animal, desires.

For those who believe in Jesus it is different.
We are not controlled by thoughts alone. Rather we wrestle our thoughts and our desires to submit them to our spirit, which we submit to Jesus.
We are born just like you. Our soul is created, but dead by the bodies stranglehold. In order to break out of this we need to have our souls brought to their intended state. A spiritual rebirth, if you will.

When we heard of the death and resurrection of Jesus, something briefly changed in our spirit. We became aware for the first time of our true selves, and our bodies stranglehold.
I made the decision to ask for a reborn soul from Jesus. When I asked Him to change me, he repaired the damage my body had done. Nothing else in this world can or will do that. You can look everywhere else in this world and eventually grasp that you are still dead and have no real purpose.
You can try everything and still only end up a hollow shell. A slave to your own thoughts.

Amen,
Very well said!!!


[edit: removed unnecessary quote of entire previous post]
Quoting - Please review this link

[edit on 12-8-2007 by 12m8keall2c]

Originally posted by sickleye
There is much confusion surrounding the idea of rebirth so please allow me to clear it.
When you speak of your soul, you think of this living being inside of your body. You believe you have a body and a soul that are temporarily intersected at a point in time, and then they separate.

You are the soul my friend, but according to Jesus, you are dead. Therefore you follow what your body tells you to follow. And you make decisions based on the results of your past decisions and what your emotions are telling you in the moment.
Using this system you try to fulfill what the body, essentially the animal, desires.

For those who believe in Jesus it is different.
We are not controlled by thoughts alone. Rather we wrestle our thoughts and our desires to submit them to our spirit, which we submit to Jesus.
We are born just like you. Our soul is created, but dead by the bodies stranglehold. In order to break out of this we need to have our souls brought to their intended state. A spiritual rebirth, if you will.

When we heard of the death and resurrection of Jesus, something briefly changed in our spirit. We became aware for the first time of our true selves, and our bodies stranglehold.
I made the decision to ask for a reborn soul from Jesus. When I asked Him to change me, he repaired the damage my body had done. Nothing else in this world can or will do that. You can look everywhere else in this world and eventually grasp that you are still dead and have no real purpose.
You can try everything and still only end up a hollow shell. A slave to your own thoughts.

Actually, What you describe is nothing more than a specific induced Amnesia. Amnesia has the same effect on people. Usually people who have a conflict within will exhibit all sorts of maladies, both psychological and physical. And although Amnesia solves all of these issues, they can return when people regain their memory, but sometimes don't. Obviously, therapy, and "spritual awakenings" also provide similar experiences.

Lately, many tests have found, interestingly enough, that psychadelic experiences, when performed under the supervision of a medical doctor, can often have very quick and long lasting effects like the ones you described.

The interesting thing to note... those with more of a religious understanding of some sort, it didn't matter which kind, were more likely to benefit inthat way. Supposedly because there was a context for the experience to be interpreted through in the minds of those with a religous background.

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by janasstar


Obviously then, you didn't have the re-birth that Jesus is speaking of. That's the one that Christians believe you need to enter Heaven. And that's who the question was directed at. Most times, people are not aware of Jesus at birth, and whether they are or not, the Lord said that we must be born again. Which is a spiritual re-birth. Which comes from believing that Jesus is the Son of God (Lord). Then 1st, you believe it in your heart, then confess it with your mouth. Then you shall be saved. It's a free gift.

But don't you know that somepeople don't want, or even need that gift?

I was answering a question that was directed at a Christian. Since I believe myself to be one, I answered it, and I don't see answering a question as trying to push something on somebody. Lighten up!!!

lol. This entire thread is egotistical, capricious, and presumptious on such a level it should be classes with thgose "icke" followers.

Originally posted by janasstar

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by janasstar


Obviously then, you didn't have the re-birth that Jesus is speaking of. That's the one that Christians believe you need to enter Heaven. And that's who the question was directed at. Most times, people are not aware of Jesus at birth, and whether they are or not, the Lord said that we must be born again. Which is a spiritual re-birth. Which comes from believing that Jesus is the Son of God (Lord). Then 1st, you believe it in your heart, then confess it with your mouth. Then you shall be saved. It's a free gift.

But don't you know that somepeople don't want, or even need that gift?

I was answering a question that was directed at a Christian. Since I believe myself to be one, I answered it, and I don't see answering a question as trying to push something on somebody. Lighten up!!!

I'm sorry, after re-reading your original post, I still think this warranted the reply I gave it.

originally posted by janasstar
Obviously then, you didn't have the re-birth that Jesus is speaking of. That's the one that Christians believe you need to enter Heaven. And that's who the question was directed at. Most times, people are not aware of Jesus at birth, and whether they are or not, the Lord said that we must be born again. Which is a spiritual re-birth. Which comes from believing that Jesus is the Son of God (Lord). Then 1st, you believe it in your heart, then confess it with your mouth. Then you shall be saved. It's a free gift.

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by sickleye
There is much confusion surrounding the idea of rebirth so please allow me to clear it.
When you speak of your soul, you think of this living being inside of your body. You believe you have a body and a soul that are temporarily intersected at a point in time, and then they separate.

You are the soul my friend, but according to Jesus, you are dead. Therefore you follow what your body tells you to follow. And you make decisions based on the results of your past decisions and what your emotions are telling you in the moment.
Using this system you try to fulfill what the body, essentially the animal, desires.

For those who believe in Jesus it is different.
We are not controlled by thoughts alone. Rather we wrestle our thoughts and our desires to submit them to our spirit, which we submit to Jesus.
We are born just like you. Our soul is created, but dead by the bodies stranglehold. In order to break out of this we need to have our souls brought to their intended state. A spiritual rebirth, if you will.

When we heard of the death and resurrection of Jesus, something briefly changed in our spirit. We became aware for the first time of our true selves, and our bodies stranglehold.
I made the decision to ask for a reborn soul from Jesus. When I asked Him to change me, he repaired the damage my body had done. Nothing else in this world can or will do that. You can look everywhere else in this world and eventually grasp that you are still dead and have no real purpose.
You can try everything and still only end up a hollow shell. A slave to your own thoughts.

Actually, What you describe is nothing more than a specific induced Amnesia. Amnesia has the same effect on people. Usually people who have a conflict within will exhibit all sorts of maladies, both psychological and physical. And although Amnesia solves all of these issues, they can return when people regain their memory, but sometimes don't. Obviously, therapy, and "spritual awakenings" also provide similar experiences.

Lately, many tests have found, interestingly enough, that psychadelic experiences, when performed under the supervision of a medical doctor, can often have very quick and long lasting effects like the ones you described.

The interesting thing to note... those with more of a religious understanding of some sort, it didn't matter which kind, were more likely to benefit inthat way. Supposedly because there was a context for the experience to be interpreted through in the minds of those with a religous background.

I found this explanation of the re-birth to be very much like my own. and I have never taken mind-altering drugs or experienced amnesia. Quazga, you claim to be a Christian, but almost everything you say, defies this fact. You confuse me to the point of pulling my hair out. I understand the atheists and agnostics, much more clearly than I do you. Don't mean to be critical, just being honest. But in any case, evry time I turn around, you're all over my back.

Originally posted by sickleye
There is much confusion surrounding the idea of rebirth so please allow me to clear it.
When you speak of your soul, you think of this living being inside of your body. You believe you have a body and a soul that are temporarily intersected at a point in time, and then they separate.

You are the soul my friend, but according to Jesus, you are dead. Therefore you follow what your body tells you to follow. And you make decisions based on the results of your past decisions and what your emotions are telling you in the moment.
Using this system you try to fulfill what the body, essentially the animal, desires.

For those who believe in Jesus it is different.
We are not controlled by thoughts alone. Rather we wrestle our thoughts and our desires to submit them to our spirit, which we submit to Jesus.
We are born just like you. Our soul is created, but dead by the bodies stranglehold. In order to break out of this we need to have our souls brought to their intended state. A spiritual rebirth, if you will.

When we heard of the death and resurrection of Jesus, something briefly changed in our spirit. We became aware for the first time of our true selves, and our bodies stranglehold.
I made the decision to ask for a reborn soul from Jesus. When I asked Him to change me, he repaired the damage my body had done. Nothing else in this world can or will do that. You can look everywhere else in this world and eventually grasp that you are still dead and have no real purpose.
You can try everything and still only end up a hollow shell. A slave to your own thoughts.

TextOK so sickle, are you calling me just an empty shell for not accepting jesus? I am very much alive and iam not a slave to my own thoughts and as far as I am concerned I have purpose. Your the kind of person I think of when people say Christians despise atheists

Originally posted by janasstar

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by sickleye
There is much confusion surrounding the idea of rebirth so please allow me to clear it.
When you speak of your soul, you think of this living being inside of your body. You believe you have a body and a soul that are temporarily intersected at a point in time, and then they separate.

You are the soul my friend, but according to Jesus, you are dead. Therefore you follow what your body tells you to follow. And you make decisions based on the results of your past decisions and what your emotions are telling you in the moment.
Using this system you try to fulfill what the body, essentially the animal, desires.

For those who believe in Jesus it is different.
We are not controlled by thoughts alone. Rather we wrestle our thoughts and our desires to submit them to our spirit, which we submit to Jesus.
We are born just like you. Our soul is created, but dead by the bodies stranglehold. In order to break out of this we need to have our souls brought to their intended state. A spiritual rebirth, if you will.

When we heard of the death and resurrection of Jesus, something briefly changed in our spirit. We became aware for the first time of our true selves, and our bodies stranglehold.
I made the decision to ask for a reborn soul from Jesus. When I asked Him to change me, he repaired the damage my body had done. Nothing else in this world can or will do that. You can look everywhere else in this world and eventually grasp that you are still dead and have no real purpose.
You can try everything and still only end up a hollow shell. A slave to your own thoughts.

Actually, What you describe is nothing more than a specific induced Amnesia. Amnesia has the same effect on people. Usually people who have a conflict within will exhibit all sorts of maladies, both psychological and physical. And although Amnesia solves all of these issues, they can return when people regain their memory, but sometimes don't. Obviously, therapy, and "spritual awakenings" also provide similar experiences.

Lately, many tests have found, interestingly enough, that psychadelic experiences, when performed under the supervision of a medical doctor, can often have very quick and long lasting effects like the ones you described.

The interesting thing to note... those with more of a religious understanding of some sort, it didn't matter which kind, were more likely to benefit inthat way. Supposedly because there was a context for the experience to be interpreted through in the minds of those with a religous background.

I found this explanation of the re-birth to be very much like my own. and I have never taken mind-altering drugs or experienced amnesia. Quazga, you claim to be a Christian, but almost everything you say, defies this fact. You confuse me to the point of pulling my hair out. I understand the atheists and agnostics, much more clearly than I do you. Don't mean to be critical, just being honest. But in any case, evry time I turn around, you're all over my back.

First off, please note that this post wasn't directed at you, so I can hardly be all over your back.

Second, I never said that sickleeye had amnesia or had taken mind altering drugs. Nor did I mention that I thought you had.

I only said that the experience of "spiritual awakening" and the side effects of it are a natural phenomena that can occur from many different methods, and are called many different things, including "re-birth". They are not unique to the Christian Experience.

Originally posted by sickleye

I made the decision to ask for a reborn soul from Jesus. When I asked Him to change me, he repaired the damage my body had done. Nothing else in this world can or will do that. You can look everywhere else in this world and eventually grasp that you are still dead and have no real purpose.
You can try everything and still only end up a hollow shell. A slave to your own thoughts.

I completely disagree. This is the fundamental problem with the Christian doctrine, the belief that submitting to Jesus is the only way. Did Jesus even teach this? Is this not a trick of the church used to convert people, the threat of no salvation?

It's a lie, it has to be. If you could only know the beauty and invigoration that I've personally experienced from bringing God into my life through simple meditation. I've checked out the Bible, and I've been to church. Frankly though, those experiences can not even compare to how I feel when I connect with God through meditation, on a daily basis.

Originally posted by janasstar
I can't help but wonder what the results would be, if the non-believers, agnostics and atheists would take a certain amount of time (the amount will be up to the individual), and wipe all the hate from their hearts, or as much as is possible. Forget about every Christian or so-called christian they ever met, steer clear of the Old-Testament, and look at the Bible in a new light. Instead of studying it to use it as a weapon, just read it. By saying to stay out of the Old Testament, I am not saying that Jesus did away with the Old Law. He said that He came to fulfill it with a new Law. The law of love. Don't get hung-up on that statement either.
Will you take the challenge?

I have already taken your challenge - For over 30 years practically.
You can read about my thoughts etc. on my ATS blog (link below) - and/or supplement it with my blog at wordpress that you can link to from my ATS blog. (as ATS has blog issues, no one can currently blog there...)

I challenge you to take the N.T. then go into the O.T. - most Christians are scared of it as they cant reconcile it with the N.T. message.
Then explore the beliefs of Charismatics, Baptist, Presbyterians...read learn from the top guys from each category, although with charismatics its tricky...and dont go to far, as more will be explained in a later assignment which uncovers a lot of their misunderstandings of there teachings.

After you do that explore Catholicism from more 'Christian kosher roots' as Thomas Merton (the guy that the beloved singer John MIchael Talbot uses as a source for some of his songs) - and Henri Nowen, a guy that is respected even amongst non-catholics.

Then you may want to explore Orthodox Christianity, if anything at least read the treatise 'the river of fire' which I have experts on my blog. Get it to help you think about things.

Try out Jews for Jesus, maybe for a short term, or merely as a supplement, but then go into Judaism (orthodox) and check out works from some of the sources linked on my blog such as Rabbi Tzadok (Orthodox rabbi at koshertorah.com)
His writings will give you a deep insight into clearing up a lot of the charismatic teachings and help add to the putting the puzzle together.

All the while, the truth is, I withdraw my challenge.
Ah, why is this? As it wont work. Why? Because it has to be your choice, not out of some challenge...it has to be a desire that is awakened within you where you 'seek' with all your heart' - and - 'when you seek with 'all your heart' then you will find.

This path may or may not take you deeper into a truth your heart is familiar with but you have yet to uncover.

But for the fun of it, I would say, top off all this with studying Eckhart Tolle - start with power of now, maybe silence speaks, which is basically the same 'pointers' - and then with a bit of a twist, a new earth.

I highly recommend audio book for the latter (and for even the rabbi, if you want to spend money, though most of his 'older stuff' is now gone and being replaced so you may find more value going though his free pdf library...could get confusing but look for terms such as 'bereshit' etc. which has to do with creation...this may be of particular interest.) -spoiler- see in Judaism Creation is not taken literal, it is taken in 4 levels of understanding, P.R.D.S.. And seeing that Christians will typically blow this off as they are the guardians of all knowledge (yet they cannot piece together the 'inconsistencies' they are faced with) it may or may not be of use...you will have to have an open mind and not blindly follow what church leaders of today tell you. (Paul said you need no teacher the spirit is in you, but oh, how we like to cling to a shepherd...human one that is).

So there you have it...one suggestion out of many Im sure...but again, the journey has to be and truly only is...yours to make.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 12-8-2007 by dAlen]

Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by janasstar
I can't help

I have already taken your challenge - For over 30 years practically.
You can read about my thoughts etc. on my ATS blog (link below) - and/or supplement it with my blog at wordpress that you can link to from my ATS blog. (as ATS has blog issues, no one can currently blog there...)

I challenge you to take the N.T. then go into the O.T. - most Christians are scared of it as they cant reconcile it with the N.T. message.
Then explore the beliefs of Charismatics, Baptist, Presbyterians...read learn from the top guys from each category, although with charismatics its tricky...and dont go to far, as more will be explained in a later assignment which uncovers a lot of their misunderstandings of there teachings.

After you do that explore Catholicism from more 'Christian kosher roots' as Thomas Merton (the guy that the beloved singer John MIchael Talbot uses as a source for some of his songs) - and Henri Nowen, a guy that is respected even amongst non-catholics.

Then you may want to explore Orthodox Christianity, if anything at least read the treatise 'the river of fire' which I have experts on my blog. Get it to help you think about things.

Try out Jews for Jesus, maybe for a short term, or merely as a supplement, but then go into Judaism (orthodox) and check out works from some of the sources linked on my blog such as Rabbi Tzadok (Orthodox rabbi at koshertorah.com)
His writings will give you a deep insight into clearing up a lot of the charismatic teachings and help add to the putting the puzzle together.

All the while, the truth is, I withdraw my challenge.
Ah, why is this? As it wont work. Why? Because it has to be your choice, not out of some challenge...it has to be a desire that is awakened within you where you 'seek' with all your heart' - and - 'when you seek with 'all your heart' then you will find."

I guess I will have to say this again. It was not my intention that the old testament was to be permanently disregarded. Just during the experiment. And NO, I am not afraid of the old testament, because I understand what Jesus meant when He said, "I have not come to do away with the law, but to fulfill it."