How can you honestly believe in God.

Yes that object is still the same, but that object is not defined.

Fine lets just say everything was 'good' and somehow someone knew what 'good' was without 'evil', then how did evil come about if EVERYTHING was good?

[edit on 12-12-2007 by AncientVoid]

Originally posted by AncientVoid
If 'god' created all 'good' then how did evil come about since all things were good and define this 'good'.

I don't expect a real answer I'm just looking at the logic behind it.

Man has put a label on discordant behavior called evil.

Its having the gift of freewill and the ability to do whatever we want, but not doing so as it creates discord within the whole, that we learn wisdom.

Peace

If Satan Sinned that means that Sin must've existed before the time of his "fall".

If Sin is absent,then there can be no temptation!

Therefore Sin must've existed before that point.

Satan angered God with his defiance,therefore the Sin of Wrath already existed and God committed it.(more than once)


Imagine there was no darkness,how would that effect the life on this planet?
We would know nothing about the universe because we wouldn't even be able to see anything!
The animal kingdom would become chaotic and the animals confused,as seen when there is an eclipse.
Plants and trees that need shade or darkness would die,probably other life as well.
People who are good know that they are.Why?
Because they have bad people to compare themselves to.

If only good existed you would cease to know what it means.
God:"you have done good."
Man:"what is that?"
God:"good is what you have done."
Man:"but what is good,what does it mean?"
God:"good is the absence of evil."
Man:"what is evil?"












[edit on 13-12-2007 by jakyll]

God: "Good is what pleases me, and subsequentally, you."

reply to post by depth om


It pleased God to wipe out all life on the planet except for 2 of (almost) every animal and 8 humans.Is that a good act or a bad act?
What human is more likely to commit a crime similar to that,Gandhi or Stalin?


Good Christians know they are worthy of God's love.Why?
Because,not only do they live by his Divine Law (well,some do)but also because they resist temptation,they do no evil.This is what makes them worthy.That is how they prove themselves.They have overcome the obstacles God has put before them.
Without evil good becomes obsolete.You love God because you don't know any different and that kinda worship soon becomes hollow.

God has always needed mankind to prove their love to him,to prove their faith is strong and this can only be achieved when there is a balance in the world;the balance of positive and negative.

Every man does evil everyday. Men who breed falsities are destroyed, that is, those who compromise commandment; truth, come to an end.

For the health of the whole, the cancer is cut off.

The question that started this thread is "How can you honestly believe in god?" It's a reasonable question, and the answers started out on track. However, I see that now the posts are all about theists working to convert the heathens by quoting scripture. How about getting back to the topic of the thread?

Occam

Originally posted by jakyll
Without evil good becomes obsolete.

actually,

Without evil, good becomes absolute

Peace

reply to post by HIFIGUY


Wrong.

It would be neither good or evil.

If i give you an object and you have nothing to compare it to. Would you say it's small or big?

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Originally posted by jakyll
Without evil good becomes obsolete.

actually,

Without evil, good becomes absolute

Peace

Originally posted by AncientVoid
reply to post by HIFIGUY

 

Wrong.

It would be neither good or evil.

If i give you an object and you have nothing to compare it to. Would you say it's small or big?

Well, first of all, youd have to ask me a question in regards to its size, in which case I would say compared to what.

Saying that I have nothing to compare it to requires that I have no physical form, or that I do not have the ability to percieve objects around me.

Asking the proper question, delivers the proper answer.

You will never go wrong with kindness, sincerity, love or Truth.

Are you in need of en example to assist you in learning what Good is?

Here is a litmus test:

Envision that anything you do to any other human being is done to you first.

Love one another Brother,

Its just that simple.

A foundation of stone that builds the greatest of Kingdoms, within, and without.

Peace


[edit on 21-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Well, first of all, youd have to ask me a question in regards to its size, in which case I would say compared to what.

Exactly...
This is same with 'good'. You can't say one thing is 'good' without knowing what the opposite is or comparing it to something else.

Originally posted by AncientVoid

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Well, first of all, youd have to ask me a question in regards to its size, in which case I would say compared to what.

Exactly...
This is same with 'good'. You can't say one thing is 'good' without knowing what the opposite is or comparing it to something else.

Everything that has been made in the world since the beginning is Good

Doing what is undesirable to oneself to another is wrong.

Consider the three positions on Morality:

There is the amoral: Those that do not know the difference between Good and Bad.

The Morally Conscious: That know what Good is

and the Immoral: Those that do what they know to be wrong.

The Ten Commandments were delivered to help all of us determine what is Good, and what is not Good.

Practice Universal Love...

We dont need to practice universal hate to see the benefit of practicing universal Love

See the greater Good

Peace



[edit on 22-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by HIFIGUY


First of all you can't say it was all good if you weren't there to witness it or if you don't have any evidence of it. Secondly, you also can't say it was good if you can't even define good. And since no one can, saying it was all good is just ignorant. Thirdly it is not logical/impossible for evil/bad to come out of 'good', that is if all 'good' is even possible.

Fine lets just say your right and it was all 'good'. What was so good about it (try not to mention things without even the slightest founation)?

I believe in God because man is not capable of making the seed that grows all living things. Even if he could he would have to use God's materials to make the seed.

Originally posted by Voyager1
I believe in God because man is not capable of making the seed that grows all living things. Even if he could he would have to use God's materials to make the seed.

Another Critical Thinking Fallacy. This one's called "Poisoning the Well." An example: 1. "All intelligent scientists agree that women are inferior." 2. You respond by supplying a long list of scientists who disagree with that statement. 3. "Ah, but I said INTELLIGENT scientists."

Your last statement is a silly gimmick to make your position non-falsifiable, and when that happens the position becomes meaningless.

In addition, it's circular logic in that the conclusion you want to prove, that god exists, is built into the premise of your last sentence.

Occam

reply to post by Occam

Originally posted by Occam

Originally posted by Voyager1
I believe in God because man is not capable of making the seed that grows all living things. Even if he could he would have to use God's materials to make the seed.

Another Critical Thinking Fallacy. This one's called "Poisoning the Well." An example: 1. "All intelligent scientists agree that women are inferior." 2. You respond by supplying a long list of scientists who disagree with that statement. 3. "Ah, but I said INTELLIGENT scientists."

Your last statement is a silly gimmick to make your position non-falsifiable, and when that happens the position becomes meaningless.

In addition, it's circular logic in that the conclusion you want to prove, that god exists, is built into the premise of your last sentence.

Occam

Funny, it seems as though your "Poisoning the Well." yourself sir.

Occam, you speak as though you have seen and heard every experience known to man and I can tell you without ever meeting you you dont.

Thats the Truth. Not up for debate. You havent. To use your own words, " Position Non Falsable "

Therefore let relationship with God be your own search no matter how invisible or improbable it may seem to you.

Thats your path whether you choose to accept it or not.

There are some of us here that arent speaking from opinion or faith brother, were the real deal..and our testimony isnt a chance or a wish.
Its direct contact with the Almighty God. The probability of the impossible exists, and I personally bring witness to that fact.

Fact. Not up for debate.

Whether you believe it or not is another question.

Revelation of the Almighty God is for the beholder should he choose to do so. The bigger question is whether you choose to knock.

Originally posted by Voyager1
I believe in God because man is not capable of making the seed that grows all living things. Even if he could he would have to use God's materials to make the seed.

Voyager1 recognizes the exponential improbability of what he witnesses around him, and also sees the germ of life that is in the core of every living thing.

Your on the right track brother.

Dont let anyone " Poison your well "

Peace


[edit on 22-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by Voyager1
I believe in God because man is not capable of making the seed that grows all living things. Even if he could he would have to use God's materials to make the seed.

No one is saying man made everything and i guess your like the rest of them, can't even consider the other possibilities out there relating to your statement.

HIFIGUY i wonder why you didn't reply to my previous post. If you need more time it's ok.

Originally posted by AncientVoid
HIFIGUY i wonder why you didn't reply to my previous post. If you need more time it's ok.

I kept putting it off. The thread was moving quick and Ive noted that when I start to lose my cherub like demeanor, that my ability to form an answer from my heart becomes very difficult.

Originally posted by AncientVoid
First of all you can't say it was all good if you weren't there to witness it or if you don't have any evidence of it.

Hmm...Lets us use a different example. Lets say there is a family. The Mother and Father are both model citizens. They give birth to a son, who ends up becoming a serial killer.

Did the Evil act come from the parents, or the son.?

Im sure, that under the right circumstances, men can be driven to do many horrid things. Its in the practicing of goodwill towards one another and Love, that we can avoid some of the triggering behaviors.

First and formost, Jesus Christ himself said, that only God was Good. His teachings state clearly that all was Good from the beginning, and that only God was perfect.

Originally posted by AncientVoid
Secondly, you also can't say it was good if you can't even define good. And since no one can, saying it was all good is just ignorant.

I read somewhere in the forum, that a statue carved, was something already in the stone, it merely required the undertaking to bring it forth.

There are things that are not known now, that are, that will be, that are good such as a cure for cancer. Everlasting life, and a host of other things that exist, but have not been revealed.

Love is Good. God is Love, and God is Good. That being said, if one doesn’t know God, then how does one understand good? Can I explain love to you? I would be hard pressed to put into words the love that one feels towards their children, parents, spouse or loved ones.

Love. Love is sensitive. Love is caring. Love is kind. Love is patient.
When you practice ultimate love of your fellow man and all Gods creatures, what is good becomes razor clear in your minds eye .hence. the saying:

Good people know what good is...or alternately, Gods people know what good is. But can there be Good without knowing God. Further explanation says yes, for God found righteousness amongst men in history.

In Love, I would never hurt you or any other human being. I would never do things that would offend you or put an undue burden on you. It is in giving, and being selfless, that we learn what is good.

Its not a class. Its not a lesson to be learned, its a way of being that heals a community and a society through heartfelt action and selfless service towards ones fellow man.

Originally posted by AncientVoid
Thirdly it is not logical/impossible for evil/bad to come out of ‘good’ that is if all 'good' is even possible.

Can you burn an ant with a magnifying glass? Why do it at all? Can you not see the misery of the ant? The Evil is in your actions and lack of compassion in the things that we do as men.

In the book of Genesis, regardless of the detail, the there is a story of the first two sons of Adam and Eve. The Brother Cain, kills Abel.

In this story, it was out of Jealousy and resentment, that Cain killed his brother.

When one looks at what is character within a man, Love, anger, happiness, Jealousy, sadness, fear, compassion, etc, these are what make us unique as men.

We have the ability to use these characteristics for good, or less then good.

Think back to when you were a child and someone gave you something, or you perpetrated an act of violence against another child. I know I did. We had rock fights. Heck, I even used a sling. We were playing.
It was only until one of my friends got hit bad, and we knew that it was no longer playing, that the rock fights stopped.

Our childhood is a learning path for what is good, and our parents need to guide us into what is the better choice, and what is the less desirable choice. The difficulty is that some parents think that beating up other people is Good, and thus raise their children that way.

We are men. We error...or in other words sin. We err in judgment as we are not perfect. Jesus comes to show us the way of the perfect man.
Jesus is what is Good.

When you look at his teaching, of Love one another, and think of how the world would be if everyone in unison embraced his teaching, there would be healing in the world. If people abandoned their lust for power, and people abandoned their greed and materialism which they all say is their right, how might the world be?

The Good and the Bad is in every man, because we have the freewill to make a bad choice. The education through family and community in the form of unity the world wide, is the only thing that can save us from ourselves, and somehow I personally dont think mankind is going to get it on his own...its going to come by the revelation and understanding of the Divinity that may seem invisible to some, but is very very real to me.

Sorry for rambling on this...but solitude, introspection, a shedding of ego and materialism. The recognition of those things which you recognize to be motivating factors in the degradation of society. People who done understand or believe there is a life after this one, will not abandon those things because they think this is their only life.

But for a man such as myself, I bring direct testimony to the existence of God, but in doing so, I had to come to some very difficult understandings about my being. I freely do this as I see it as the better path.
That my former arrogance and aggression, materialism and vanity was bad for me, not helpful to my community, and I realized that the problems in the world were only going to get worse if the whole world was like me.


Ask yourself...

How would the whole world be, if the whole world was like me?

Thats the litmus test.

Think about it...

Peace


[edit on 23-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by HIFIGUY

Originally posted by AncientVoid
First of all you can't say it was all good if you weren't there to witness it or if you don't have any evidence of it.

Hmm...Lets us use a different example. Lets say there is a family. The Mother and Father are both model citizens. They give birth to a son, who ends up becoming a serial killer.

Did the Evil act come from the parents, or the son.?

First and formost, Jesus Christ himself said, that only God was Good. His teachings state clearly that all was Good from the beginning, and that only God was perfect.

That has very little to do with my quote.

As for the son part.
Desires and freewill can cause humans to do bad things. It is the boys nature or desire to kill and guess who created these if what you say is true? Therefore not everything was all 'good'. If something can cause 'evil' then it is not all 'good'.

Originally posted by AncientVoid
Secondly, you also can't say it was good if you can't even define good. And since no one can, saying it was all good is just ignorant.

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
There are things that are not known now, that are, that will be, that are good such as a cure for cancer.

That's just your opinion...

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Love is Good. God is Love, and God is Good. That being said, if one doesn’t know God, then how does one understand good? Can I explain love to you? I would be hard pressed to put into words the love that one feels towards their children, parents, spouse or loved ones.

Again, just opinion and not facts. Why do you bother trying to define good when no one can.
Ha your so funny. I guess all non-believers are evil and don't understand good at all. Seriously...

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Can you burn an ant with a magnifying glass? Why do it at all? Can you not see the misery of the ant? The Evil is in your actions and lack of compassion in the things that we do as men.

This again is caused by desire and 'free-will' and as you said lack of compassion. If you right then god created these concept which has the ability to turn 'evil' and so not everything was and is created good.

Originally posted by AncientVoid
Why do you bother trying to define good when no one can.

Im a firm believer that God speaks to us in dreams as does Christ.
Its written, and Ive experienced it. In dreams, and while Im awake.

One dream in particular went like this...I heard a voice..and it said:

"Good people know what Good is"

Perhaps I should ask you a question such as " What is Love"

We know it exists. Give me your definition of Love.

And if you say it doesnt exist, go tell your spouse or loved one, or someone you care for that Love doenst exist.

There is your insensitivity. There is your heartlessness. When everything is off the table and nothing matters in terms of your fellow man, the bad that can be has no restraints and evil makes its entrance.

Btw..they call that the Lawlessone in the Bible. He happens to be the Antichrist.

Christ was Gods love made man. Therefore Christ is Love.

Antichrist is Antilove..

you do the math..

Little Hint: Id avoid that

Originally posted by AncientVoid
Ha your so funny. I guess all non-believers are evil and don't understand good at all. Seriously...

You dont know me very well.

Peace


[edit on 23-12-2007 by HIFIGUY]