How can you honestly believe in God.

reply to post by andre18


Thats why I said that Andre there's no way that the Bible was made up. But the Bible was on the banned list and the Catholics forbidden anyone to read the scriptures. Thus called the Dark ages. Yes I do believe the Catholics had a hand in it this control you speak of. The thing I don't agree with is ministries asking for money and turning the preaching the Word of God into a Muliti million franshise. It upsets me that I see these fancy sets for TV. It should be based on faith not what the Catholics say.
I for one am not a fan for that matter of the system that runs the Catholic Church. Thats the problem. Look up the Pope and find the Vicar of Jesus.
The Pope is not Jesus nor should anyone pray to Mary to get in contact with Jesus. The whole religion deal is messed up. Who created religion was Man not God. We're in big trouble. So now what are we gonna do about it?

reply to post by Leyla


i'm sorry... the dark ages were called the dark ages because of the religious suppression of technological, philosophical, and scientific advancement.... not because people weren't allowed to read the bible

and it's quite obvious that certain parts of the bible were made up

sun "stopping" in the sky
flood
creation stories
revelations
story of moses

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Leyla

 

i'm sorry... the dark ages were called the dark ages because of the religious suppression of technological, philosophical, and scientific advancement.... not because people weren't allowed to read the bible

and it's quite obvious that certain parts of the bible were made up

sun "stopping" in the sky
flood
creation stories
revelations
story of moses

Madness your are utterly exhausting!!:bnghd: As Andre said how would they even know about the flood or even the crossing of the Red sea- if they thought the earth was flat or the sun revolved around the earth? So I guess a stork brought in Adam and Eve or was it a unicorn?

Thats whats wrong with everyone no one has any faith or even believes in miracles.

Why would they make this up? What would be the purpose? That would be cruel and heartless. I would really want to hear your views Madness!
So your saying the Bible is a lie and million of people were deceived? Of all this time?! Come on give me another tall tale!

If there is no God then tell me why I'm still alive? Really I shouldn't be but I'm here. If it wasn't for a few people who found out my situation when they did- I would have died in 1975.



[edit on 10/30/2007 by Leyla]

reply to post by Leyla

Why would they make this up? What would be the purpose? That would be cruel and heartless. I would really want to hear your views Madness!
So your saying the Bible is a lie and million of people were deceived? Of all this time?! Come on give me another tall tale!

Look for a moment at "pagan" religions.Say,the Greek,Norse & Egyption Gods and Goddesses.Did any of the followers of these faiths force people to believe in them? Would they be damned for eternity if they did not believe in every God and Goddess? Were any of these faiths used as a weapon to oppress people of other cultures?
The answer to all,is No.

Christianity has done all these things and more.It started when Constantine made Christianity the state religion.The Roman Empire was falling apart,he knew that this religion could be used as a tool to keep the Empire together.From that point on Christianity ceased to be a faith,it became a weapon and the tolerance Rome had showed to the many other faiths at he time,disappeard in a wave of violence.
And why,you ask,would people do that? Because of power.Because of wealth.Because of control.Because of total and utter blind faith.And once the men of the cloth got a taste for these things,they didn't want to give it up!

Madness is right about the dark ages,Christianity (in the form of the Catholic Church) surpressed just about everything.If it wasn't in the Bible it was Evil and preached as such,and these pious men would then burn people alive for daring to think beyond the confines of religion!

As Andre said how would they even know about the flood or even the crossing of the Red sea

Because they went to Mass!
Because many of the learned people of the day were taught Latin and could therefore read the Bible.In the 1500's Martin Luther translated the Bible into German using the original text (not the Latin Vulgate),not long after William Tyndale followed in Luther's footsteps and brought out an English translation.(for which he was burned alive for.)These books brought the Bible to a wider audience,so many people across Europe would not've been ignorant of what was in it!





[edit on 30-10-2007 by jakyll]

To Jungle Jake regarding Pagan Faiths...

Originally posted by jakyll
Look for a moment at "pagan" religions.Say,the Greek,Norse & Egyption Gods and Goddesses.Did any of the followers of these faiths force people to believe in them? Would they be damned for eternity if they did not believe in every God and Goddess? Were any of these faiths used as a weapon to oppress people of other cultures?
The answer to all,is No.

Your words are in conflict with Jesus Christ himself.

16 "I am an Israelite," replied Jesus. "From the day of my birth I saw the walls of Jerusalem, and I heard the weeping of my brothers reduced to slavery and the lamentations of my sisters who were carried away by the pagans.

To Leyla, why worry about that which you have no control? Do your duty in terms of the command. Remember the story of the Mustard seed? Grow and let your field become a testimony to the will of the sower.

Below listed is perhaps something that some may grasp. In my earliest years as a teenager, I often wondered, even now, if this was a divinely inspired document.

Full Scipt here..
hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu...

A portion From Desiderata...


You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

We are argueing that which is the Truth. There is only one Truth. When one argues that which cannot be argued, yes exhaustion sets in.
It is unwavering and unchanging. The Truth is Conquerable by no enemy.

Madnessinmysoul is not exhausting, for the point he brings forth points a mirror at ourselves and the fact that we are forcing ourselves upon others.

The Accuser becomes the judged according to their own words. Christ said it himself.

Dont worry about your religion. Obey the command

Love One another. Its just that simple

Peace


[edit on 30-10-2007 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Once again you take a unrealistic slant I see Madness. I can say this NOT because you said the erronious statement to me but because it seems to fit. You are ignorant on history.

The Dark Ages weren't called the Dark Ages because of ANYTHING to do with Christianity. To quote wikipedia.

When the term Dark Ages is used by historians today, it is intended to be neutral, namely to express the idea that the events of the period often seem "dark" to us only because of the paucity of historical records compared with later times. The darkness is ours, not theirs. However, since there is no shortage of information on the High and Late Middle Ages, this required a narrowing of the reference to the Early Middle Ages. Late 5th and 6th century Britain, for instance, at the height of the Saxon invasions, might well be numbered among "the darkest of the Dark Ages," with the equivalent of a near-total news blackout in terms of historical records, compared with either the Roman era before or the centuries that followed.

Source: Wikipedia Entry: Dark Ages

In short the Dark Ages is called the Dark Ages because of the realative lack of records. Compared to say the Roman Period before and the Medival Period after.
Take your party lines elsewhere.
I would also like to add yes this was a period of great gains for Christianity but you seem to forget that Rome had pretty much crashed and burned at the start of this period.

You sir are just as bad as ANY of those you fight picking and choosing only the facts that fit your agenda and pretending the rest doesn't exist or matter.





[edit on 30-10-2007 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
god is either impotent or uncaring...
that's the problem of evil in a universe governed by such a postulated entity.
either god can't stop the evil or god doesn't want to.

Or evil is a man made device. Let me ask you this. Where in the natural world do you see "evil"? And don't say predators because there is no malice in what they do, they serve their purpose within nature.

loooook….before this gets out of hand…..i better save the day………

before we contemplate about gods existence…..lets destroy religion first……

Sun god ‘Horus’ Egyptian 3000 BC

He is anthropomorphised as the sun

He’s life is about the suns movements in the sky

Horus also means light, day

‘Set’ (god of the underworld) darkness, night

Born on December 25 of the virgin Isis meri and was accompanied be the star on the east, followed and located by the 3 kings, age of 12, was a prodicle child teacher, age of 30 he was baptised by a figure known as Anup, and had 12 disciples he travelled about with. Preformed miracles, healing the sick, and walking on water.
The truth, the light, gods anointed son, the good Shepard, the lamp of god,
After being betrayed by typhoon, he was crucified, berried and dead for 3 days and then resurrected.

Attics, of fledgier Greece 1200 BC, Born of the virgin Nanun, born on December 25 crucified placed in a tomb and after three days resurrected

Krishna India 900 BC born of the virgin Devaki ("Divine One"), royal descent star in the east signalling his coming, birth was attended by wise men, preformed miracles with his disciples, disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," "pure essence," and upon is death was resurrected

Dionysus of Greece, 500 BC, born of a virgin, born on December 25, was a travelling teacher who preformed miracles, such as turning water into wine, Referred to as the king of kings, gods only begotten sun the alpha and omega upon his death was resurrected

Mithra Persia 1200 BC, born as a virgin on December 25, he had twelve disciples, preformed miracles, upon his death was berried for 3 days and then resurrected, also referred to as the truth the light, the day of worship was Sunday, bread and wine, of which the Mithraic initiates partook. The bread consisted of tiny leaves, each distinctively marked with a cross. The participants ate the bread and then drank the wine from a cup. The Christians of the day, noting the likeness, accused the demons of thievery. Both ceremonies, Christian and Mithraic, were believed to have been memorial services celebrating the divine, and it is known that Mithra, at the close of his redemptive career and just before his ascension to heaven, partook of a last supper with his companions.

Buddha born of the virgin Maya, royal descent, performed miracles, healed the sick, walked on water, crucified, suffered for three days in hell, and was resurrected.



Star in the east is Sirius, the brightest star in the night sky, on December 24 a-lines with the three brightest stars on oriens belt, the three kings, the three kings and Sirius a-line with the sun on December 25,

The virgin merry is the constellation Virgo, also known as Virgo the virgin, Virgo in Latin means virgin, the ancient gliff for virgin is the M, this is why merry along with other virgin mothers along with Adolness mother myrra, or buddas mother maya, Virgo is also referred to as the house of bread, the representation of Virgo holding a sheaf of wheat, house of bread symbol of wheat represents august and September, the time of harvest, inturn the term Bethlehem translates to house of bread, Bethlehem is reference to the castellation Virgo, a place in the sky, not on earth

From the summer stolsuce to winter stolsuce, the days become shorter, and colder, from the perspective from the Northern hemisphere, the sun moves appears to move south and become more smaller and more screrce, less sun means crops die, meaning death, to the ancients, there was the death of the sun --- December 15 to December 22 the sun sets earlier and the days become shorter, the sun stops moving south on 22 for 3 days that can be seen, and is under the southern cross constellation, on December 25 the sun moves one degree North, rising from the dead, reborn, giving longer days, warmth and spring

Epic of Gilgamesh 2600 BC same story as noah

Sargon of acard same as mosses story of birth, basket in water 2250 BC and raised by royalty.

The Gospels are laid out according to the zodiacal motifs with Jesus, the sun, passing through the four seasons. He is born every year on December 25, the first day when daylight hours start to increase.
In the winter months, the darkness of evil is still in force. As the daylight hours start to increase, he is said to be increasing in strength. His mission starts on the first day of spring when daylight hours equal nighttime hours. Spring is the time of righteousness.
He is at full strength at the summer solstice when the sun is at its highest position in the sky. As the sun descends through the summer months, the dark forces of evil are said to be sapping his strength.
When the sun passes through the autumnal equinox, the evil forces of darkness are said to be ruling. On the three darkest days of the year, the sun is dead from December 21 to 24. His resurrection restarts on December 25, when the sun starts to ascend again.

check and mate...............owned...pwnd.........what ev..













[edit on 30-10-2007 by andre18]

[edit on 30-10-2007 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Originally posted by iamcanadian2

atheism is a belief system like bald is a hair colour

How pray tell is it not?

reply to post by HIFIGUY

Your words are in conflict with Jesus Christ himself.

Really?

Matthew.11:20-24.

Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Thats Jesus getting irate because the people's of some cities didn't believe what he preached.

Matthew.25:41.

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Just one of many verses were Jesus tells non believers they are condemned for eternity.

Mark.7:9-10.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Jesus criticizising the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law.

Mark.16:16.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That is Jesus damning people like i said right,i'm not mistaken?

Luke.1:20.

And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

This infliction would make anyone fearful of God,so this is faith as a weapon.

Luke.12:46-48.

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

God will beat you until you fear him and worship him accordingly.

Ephesians.5:6.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

You disobey,you are punished.You are controled.

2 Thessalonians.1:7-9.

...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Jesus,the guy with the heart of gold getting revenge!!


Revelations.19:11-13.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

No need to explain these verses,is there!

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Ah,the ever reliable wikipedia.
Whatever you find on it,cross-reference just to make sure you have your facts right!

Initially,this era took on the term “dark” by later onlookers;this was due to the backward ways and practices that seemed to prevail during this time. Future historians used the term “dark” simply to denote the fact that little was known about this period; there was a paucity of written history. Recent discoveries have altered this perception as many new facts about this time have been uncovered.

quote from allabouthistory.com

also.

The Dark Ages was a period of religious struggle. Protestants and Catholics viewed the era from opposing perspectives. Protestants regarded this time as a period of Catholic corruption; they repudiated the ways of the Catholic Church with its papal doctrines and hierarchy. Protestants strove to recreate a pure Christianity,void of those “dark” Catholic ways.

reply to post by jakyll

Future historians used the term “dark” simply to denote the fact that little was known about this period; there was a paucity of written history. Recent discoveries have altered this perception as many new facts about this time have been uncovered.

Ah yes. Cross reference my info with a Christian propaganda site like www.allaboutgod.com (of which www.allabouthistory.com) is a part of.
Yea. THATS unbiased.

Thats not withstanding the fact your backing up madness who comes to the purely mad and might I add against you statement "That religion (read Christianity seeing as to how all his arguments are based there) is the root of all evil." Completely letting off humanity for any wrong doing unless its followers of religion.

reply to post by WraothAscendant



"All of us are born mad,some of us remain so."

It is a fact that more illumination has been brought to the Dark Ages,it is not Christian propaganda!

Because God created Evil does not mean mankind should be absolved of any blame.It just means that God has to take his fare share of the burden too!

reply to post by jakyll


Yes sir the source you cited is yet another website in a long list of Christian Propaganda websites. Slanted information to back people like you's position. Yes, atheists have their propaganda too as does most every stance out there.
Picking and choosing what facts you want and dismissing the rest in any of a number of fashions (ignoring, misinterpeting, ridiculing etc and so forth).

And I fail to see how using the OLD definition of something is in anyway illuminating it.

Ok. Now. Lets talk about the nature of the word "evil". Since you claim it was created by "god" and thusly a elemental part of the world.

Where in nature (other than man) do you see evil? And please don't use the predictable argument that predators are evil because that stance is pure foolishness.

[edit on 30-10-2007 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Evil, "bad" is a system or a piece of a system that's out of sync, harmony with the whole. So, if you go by that definition, everywhere. Anything that destroys or damages.

Originally posted by depth om
reply to post by WraothAscendant

 

Evil, "bad" is a system or a piece of a system that's out of sync, harmony with the whole. So, if you go by that definition, everywhere. Anything that destroys or damages.

That is if you ignore the fact that sometimes destruction (and damage) can achieve "good" ends.
Case in fact. Predators, lets say wolves. They kill (destroy) other animals, lets say deer. Which keeps deer populations down so that they don't deplete their food source and end up starving themselves to death.

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Yea you're right. Rebirth, rebuilding. The Bible's explanation is that before death, there was no need for such cycles.

reply to post by depth om


Life feeds on life.
Something must die so that another can live. That is the way of things.

If animals existed before death existed then how come there have been examples of animals that eat other animals as far back as we can remember? Considering the fact that herbivores,carnivores and even ominvores are all layed differently with their attributes to serve that purpose.

That would imply that "god" knew that adam was going to eat the apple and that he would have to punish him and the world with death. You see the fuzzy logic I am pointing at man?

And I am basing my questions from a Judeo-Christian stand point since well you brought up the bible. I am not attacking your right to believe whatever you want by the way, just pointing out what I see to be logical falacy.

Because from where I am sitting the concept of good and evil is purely human fabrication for purely human reasons.

[edit on 30-10-2007 by WraothAscendant]