Russia growing as new fasists!!!

Putin, responding to a question from an Estonian journalist on 5/10/05:

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Thank you very much for your question. It is very timely. I will start with the second point. You speak good Russian and I am sure that you read Russian just as well. Please take a look at the resolution passed by the Congress of People’s Deputies in 1989, where it is written black on white that the Congress of People’s Deputies denounces the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and considers it legally invalid. It did not reflect the opinion of the Soviet people but was the personal affair of Stalin and Hitler.

How can we be more clear and precise on this point? Or would you rather that we repeated these words every year? What do you think, what more can we say? We think that this question is closed. I will not come back to it. We expressed our view once and that is enough.

Now, on the subject of occupation. As I see it, in 1918, Russia and Germany concluded a deal that was sealed in the Brest-Litovsk Peace Treaty, under which Russia handed over part of its territories to German control. This marked the beginning of Estonian statehood. In 1939, Russia and Germany concluded another deal and Germany handed these territories back to Russia. In 1939, they were absorbed into the Soviet Union. Let us not talk now about whether this was good or bad. This is part of history. I think that this was a deal, and small countries and small nations were the bargaining chips in this deal. Regrettably, such was the reality of those times, just as there was the reality of European countries’ colonial past, or the use of slave labour in the United States. But today, are we, day after day, to allow the ghosts of the past to seize us by the hands and prevent us from moving forward?

I agree with Putin in that some in the Baltics/Poland are living in the past and cannot simply move forward.

I don't know if any of you have noticed it yet but Russia is simply "writing-off" states that wont deal with it or are constantly instigating it, many times due to historical rivalry, vendettas, and paranoia. Russia is too important a country to deal with paranoid states, some of which also want subsidized fuel and energy. For example, yesterday there were Russians on the North Pole communicating to Russians in space, while the Russian FM was the center of attention at the ASEAN summit and the top Saudi security official was in Moscow for strategic talks.

[edit on 3-8-2007 by colleen77]

Originally posted by northwolf
For your information Estonia and Latvia were independent before the USSR invaded them at '39 so they didn't belong to USSR and they certainly did not welcome the red army and only joined as they were forced to. That statue was an insult to the entire baltic.

1939 the baltic countries were prosperous and independet democrasies and USSR invaded them BEFORE Nazis came. Actually Hitler was greeted as a liberator when werhmacth drove Russians away... So check your facts Russian Boy...

Ps. Compare Estonia and Finland at 1990 and you see how much damage USSR occupation did to Estonia.

[edit on 3-8-2007 by northwolf]

Maybe you would like to check the net for concentration camps in germany were millions were slaughtered and then again rethink if Hitler was a liberator.

Russian boy,

Hitler was a madman, but as i said Batics considered him as a liberator when he drove the red army away. As red army committed far worse astrocities in the baltics than Nazis ever did. Lots of balts hurried to join SS in order to get a change at fighting Communism. But hey maybe they still loved Russian occupation, go figure

Hey swesais.
Interesting thread.
I don't have all that much use for Putin & his regime after the last couple putinkjb dictorial warm-ups for Russians.
However, I have lesser interest in gwbush, his foreign (silent) policies to about the same negative level.

The sooner both are out of office, the sooner we can move on to the new regimes.

Dallas

Originally posted by swesais
That is what troubeling me!!!They arent simply making patriots, but growing a dumb,ignorant mass of milions of people who will believe in everything that goverment says!As the statistics show Putin and Russian goverment have full support of public in every question that goes out of Russia!!!
My grandma told me that when Russians came to occupie Latvia,they thought that we are: 1)nazis,2)not christian.

I very much appreciate your (to me) unique point of view, swesais. Much the same thing is happening here in the USA and no doubt in China and elsewhere. I sometimes wish that the people here had in living memory the kinds of atrocities you speak of, so that they might resist more aggressively. It should be obvious to most by now that there are no good guys in any global conflict. Putin, Bush, Blair, et al..... They're all evil.

Originally posted by northwolf
That statue was an insult to the entire baltic.

No it wasn’t. I am from baltic and I don't see anything bad in WWII memorials

Originally posted by northwolf
For your information Estonia and Latvia were independent before the USSR invaded them at '39

Actually USSR didn't invade them. USSR had treaties with them which allowed to station military forces in those countries

Originally posted by northwolf
they certainly did not welcome the red army

well I have documentary about this "invasion" and I made you a gif file.

Soviet forces in Estonia

Originally posted by northwolf
1939 the baltic countries were prosperous and independet democrasies

none of the baltic states were democrasies in 1930s

Originally posted by northwolf
Ps. Compare Estonia and Finland at 1990 and you see how much damage USSR occupation did to Estonia.

I really don't understand what are you trying to say. Estonia wasnt part of Finland, so there is no point comparing them.

Originally posted by northwolf
Actually Hitler was greeted as a liberator

too bad Estonian Jews could not enjoy this liberation

Thank you FDS for your post and I've heard about this a lot - how some young nationalists in the Baltics and Poland are trying to sabotage the argument and rewrite history to the chagrin of many others, including the older generation that was actually around and knows exactly what took place.

Originally posted by FDS

Originally posted by northwolf
That statue was an insult to the entire baltic.

No it wasn’t. I am from baltic and I don't see anything bad in WWII memorials

Originally posted by northwolf
For your information Estonia and Latvia were independent before the USSR invaded them at '39

Actually USSR didn't invade them. USSR had treaties with them which allowed to station military forces in those countries

Originally posted by northwolf
they certainly did not welcome the red army

well I have documentary about this "invasion" and I made you a gif file.

Soviet forces in Estonia

Originally posted by northwolf
1939 the baltic countries were prosperous and independet democrasies

none of the baltic states were democrasies in 1930s

Originally posted by northwolf
Ps. Compare Estonia and Finland at 1990 and you see how much damage USSR occupation did to Estonia.

I really don't understand what are you trying to say. Estonia wasnt part of Finland, so there is no point comparing them.

Originally posted by northwolf
Actually Hitler was greeted as a liberator

too bad Estonian Jews could not enjoy this liberation

NO,it was an insult to Baltics,that wasnt an monument about WW2 suffer,it was about great russian solder who liberated us!!
And common, dont please speculate whit that treaties,we all know that baltics didnt join in them from free will.
About this gif file-that is an simple propaganda made by russians to excuse they ocupation, dont take it as serious evidence.
Yes, we wasnt democrasies,but we where independent,rich and happy whit that!!
And for last comment, i'm really sick of this.How long you will trow this jewish stuff to us.It's getting anoying.We have apoologized to jewish nation,build monuments about jewish suffering,why are you sticking in every place that.Dont you have other arguments that only that??And if for real,I dont care now about jewish suffer,i care about suffer of my people,my country.But hey russians, dont like to speak about it.They prefer to call us fashists and selfs as liberators! So I have one question-why russians after ''liberation'' didnt leave all those countrys they liberated???

Originally posted by colleen77
Putin, responding to a question from an Estonian journalist on 5/10/05:

VLADIMIR PUTIN: Thank you very much for your question. It is very timely. I will start with the second point. You speak good Russian and I am sure that you read Russian just as well. Please take a look at the resolution passed by the Congress of People’s Deputies in 1989, where it is written black on white that the Congress of People’s Deputies denounces the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and considers it legally invalid. It did not reflect the opinion of the Soviet people but was the personal affair of Stalin and Hitler.

How can we be more clear and precise on this point? Or would you rather that we repeated these words every year? What do you think, what more can we say? We think that this question is closed. I will not come back to it. We expressed our view once and that is enough.

Now, on the subject of occupation. As I see it, in 1918, Russia and Germany concluded a deal that was sealed in the Brest-Litovsk Peace Treaty, under which Russia handed over part of its territories to German control. This marked the beginning of Estonian statehood. In 1939, Russia and Germany concluded another deal and Germany handed these territories back to Russia. In 1939, they were absorbed into the Soviet Union. Let us not talk now about whether this was good or bad. This is part of history. I think that this was a deal, and small countries and small nations were the bargaining chips in this deal. Regrettably, such was the reality of those times, just as there was the reality of European countries’ colonial past, or the use of slave labour in the United States. But today, are we, day after day, to allow the ghosts of the past to seize us by the hands and prevent us from moving forward?

I agree with Putin in that some in the Baltics/Poland are living in the past and cannot simply move forward.

I don't know if any of you have noticed it yet but Russia is simply "writing-off" states that wont deal with it or are constantly instigating it, many times due to historical rivalry, vendettas, and paranoia. Russia is too important a country to deal with paranoid states, some of which also want subsidized fuel and energy. For example, yesterday there were Russians on the North Pole communicating to Russians in space, while the Russian FM was the center of attention at the ASEAN summit and the top Saudi security official was in Moscow for strategic talks.

[edit on 3-8-2007 by colleen77]

Dont know where you have that information,but russia is the one who is living in the past! Russia still thinks that post soviet countrys belong to Russia,in one or another way!!Energy and fuel they are using as an intrument of terror against countrys who isnt pro-Moscow.For example Georgia-Russia cut gas suplies for them in winter,do you now what that means??Russia isnt important country, but he wants to be.It is a major diference.
I see you just dont get it, Russia was , is , andwill be an agresor.Its in their blood!!!

Originally posted by colleen77
Thank you FDS for your post and I've heard about this a lot - how some young nationalists in the Baltics and Poland are trying to sabotage the argument and rewrite history to the chagrin of many others, including the older generation that was actually around and knows exactly what took place.

It isnt about nationalism,or sabotage the arguments and rewrite history to vhargin of many others.And you should really speak whit older generation that was actually around and knows exactly what took place!
For example check this:
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
And those are ''liberators'' from Russia!!!!!

[edit on 6-8-2007 by swesais]

About comparing Estonia and Finland in 1990:
Both countries are located closely and had about the same level of economic prosperity and quality of life in '39, in 1990 Estonia had fallen roughly 2 decades behind in developement compared to its norhtern neighbour. Only real factor separating these countries was the fact that Estonia was occupied by USSR and Finland was independent and had a market economy. Doesn't this show how "good" the soviet investments to Estonia were?

Wow...this thread didnt even get past the first reply before it was derailed off topic...shame, shame guys.

Ok, Let's try to push this thread back towards the topic:

One interesting feature in Russian system at the moment is that Kremlin has created several youth organisations and even an opposition party in order to offer "choises" for the people, yet all of these organisations get their orders and money from the Kremlin... what a nice way to fool the people... looks like Putin has studied the american system well...

Ps. FDS, thank you for your insight, i've gotten very different answers from older Estonians, but the answers highly depend on the ethnic background of the people you talk with..


[edit on 6-8-2007 by northwolf]

Here i find more interesting information about democracie in Russia-www.libertarium.ru...
So what we have here-
1)youth organizations whit extreme nationalism supported by goverment
2)human rights violation
3)growing agresiv foreign politics
4)populated one-mans cult(Mr.Putin)
5)depressed oposition
I dont see any difference from USSR,but maybe i'm paranoic.)
And people from western country's,please dont compare Russia whit U.S.,yes there are many things that look the same,but generally U.S is more democracie than Russia will ever be. U.S values and mentality is asymetric to Russian's values.After Lenins and Stalins cleaning in Russia was no more intelligent and tolerant people.

Originally posted by swesais
Here i find more interesting information about democracie in Russia-www.libertarium.ru...
So what we have here-
1)youth organizations whit extreme nationalism supported by goverment
2)human rights violation
3)growing agresiv foreign politics
4)populated one-mans cult(Mr.Putin)
5)depressed oposition
I dont see any difference from USSR,but maybe i'm paranoic.

)
And people from western country's,please dont compare Russia whit U.S.,yes there are many things that look the same,but generally U.S is more democracie than Russia will ever be. U.S values and mentality is asymetric to Russian's values.After Lenins and Stalins cleaning in Russia was no more intelligent and tolerant people.

Yes you are paranoic . there is no same democracy for all the countries , every country adobt to it , its different for every nation as every nation have different background. Why would we like the democracy the USA have ? so we can buy a 9mm free from a shop at the corner ? Russias democrasy is only 17 years old dont compare it with the US! And stop living in the past !
Russia is not USSR , IT IS ONLY YOU HO BELIEVE IT for god sake get it over with !!!!

And???
Not only Russia democracy is 17 years old,but other post soviet country's manage to build an better democracy in that period!Stop beeing ignorant and selfish,stop terrorising other country's, stop killing journalists and oposition,dont scare everyone whit your ICBM and I will get over it!!
Thats is what every russian want's-that others take Russia as hole new country.Sorry,but if I see in goverment and military the same persons who was in charge at SU, I can not believe that something has changed!
And who knows-maybe your democracy wil end when next KGB general takes president chair!!!

Originally posted by swesais
And???
Not only Russia democracy is 17 years old,but other post soviet country's manage to build an better democracy in that period!Stop beeing ignorant and selfish,stop terrorising other country's, stop killing journalists and oposition,dont scare everyone whit your ICBM and I will get over it!!
Thats is what every russian want's-that others take Russia as hole new country.Sorry,but if I see in goverment and military the same persons who was in charge at SU, I can not believe that something has changed!
And who knows-maybe your democracy wil end when next KGB general takes president chair!!!

You just keep playing the same song , As i told you before dont compare your tiny country with our vast territory , it takes more time to spread the ideology. Terrorising that is why i tell you get it over with . And for one more time we do not scare anyone with our ICBMs we put a warning when our national security is threatend . You and a couple more here are selfish and ignorant. Stop barking and look at your own country. We are glad that Putin is running the country and we are happy with his decisions as long as the country is becoming strong again. Every Russian want the ''OTHERS''
speak for your self , thats the minority, thats what you believe !


[edit on 7-8-2007 by Russian Boy]

Make a warning-common,thats real porno.It like U.S. isnt at war whit any country around the globe,they are only making preemtive strikes and spreading democracy.Be honest, your ambitions are far above only your vast teritory,and i dont want to see another red scourge acros europe!!And why are you ignoring simple facts-in Russia is growing fashism,there are many journalists killed,goverment is pressing oposition,Russia is insulting foreign souveren country's.If you think that it is right way to lead the country,and you can ignore minority's than thats is a pure fashism(see description about word fashism)

P.S. We are willing to get over the past,but it is very dificult when the red bear is pressing on us(like in april in Tallin)

[edit on 7-8-2007 by swesais]

Originally posted by swesais
Make a warning-common,thats real porno.It like U.S. isnt at war whit any country around the globe,they are only making preemtive strikes and spreading democracy.Be honest, your ambitions are far above only your vast teritory,and i dont want to see another red scourge acros europe!!And why are you ignoring simple facts-in Russia is growing fashism,there are many journalists killed,goverment is pressing oposition,Russia is insulting foreign souveren country's.If you think that it is right way to lead the country,and you can ignore minority's than thats is a pure fashism(see description about word fashism)

P.S. We are willing to get over the past,but it is very dificult when the red bear is pressing on us(like in april in Tallin)

[edit on 7-8-2007 by swesais]

''Preemative strikes and spreading democracy'' DO YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU SAY OR YOU GONE COMPLETLY BLIND !!! Thats really a good way of sreading democracy by killing thousands and taking their oil .Yes our ambitions are far from our teritory as well as the USA. Insulting ??? please give examples . And let me tell you something no you wont see an other scourge across Europe , you will see it under Europe if you know what i am talking about. Sorry but your country is depent and always be , thats reality.

[edit on 7-8-2007 by Russian Boy]

I dont want to argue whit you anymore,it's useless.Live in your great,freedomfull,right Russia and be happy.But dont feel safe,your country is going down in one or another day,and your worst nightmare wont be Europe or U.S.Look a litle bit further to siberia-there's a big mass of yellow,hungry dwarfs who will runn in your country and eat you a live.