lets quit screwing around and prove or disprove the bible: here is how

Originally posted by Boondock78
let me first say that i am a hardcore atheist and don't believe in the bible or the word at all. not one single iota. that said, i have a thirst for knowledge. i would very much like to KNOW the score here know what i mean.

so it is 'rumored' that noah's ark rests on mt ararat...now, i have been fascinated with this and i just started really reading about it. basically, IF the ark is ever found that would basically prove that all that bible rambling really happened. it would be an insanely important artifact. it would end a several thousand year old argument.

get the funds together from various churches, donations, grants, whatever and get on up the mountain.
i don't know how but it can be done. we have been to space. we have built oil rigs in the ocean....we can damn sure scale this mountain and see if there is a 400 foot boat or remnants of up there.
BUT, the turkish or armenian gov/people 'believe' it is there so they will not allow anyone up there.
what gives with that?

my opinion???????????
they're afraid of not finding anything. why else would they/we/humans not go check that out? we are explorers. we look for things. we look for answers and perhaps the biggest answer is 'maybe'(according to satelite pics) right up on that mountain..

i'm just thinking that it just seems 'off' to me that the general consensus is that this boat is there, but we can't go there....

i say get up there and find out so we can get past this.

of course if the boat is not there that does not mean all the bible babble never happened cause it could have...BUT, if it is there, then DAMN.....proof. there it is. there IS a god. there WAS a flood.
why do 'they' not want to prive this?

The anomoly on Mt. Arrat was proved, I think long ago, to be an unusual rock formation if I recall. Even if they did find an 'arc' up there, it still does not prove there was any God. In fact, if you trace this old tale, it pre-dates the Jewish bible by thousands of years, in books like 'The Epic of Gilgamesh' (Ancient Babylon?), The Summerians and many others also had an identical 'Flood' legend. As did the Mayans, Aztecs, North American natives...and on and on...

What does this prove? Well, there may once have either been some sort of planet wide disassaster, or alternatively, localised flooding in different parts of the planet at differing times. The latter is the more likely explanation due to chronological problems...

J,.

Originally posted by uberarcanist

Originally posted by Boondock78

Originally posted by uberarcanist

What makes you say they were edited?

you're kidding right?
do you think the bible is as it was since it was written?
legit question

Maybe there were some minor changes here and there, but nothing earthshattering. I mean I keep hearing this charge thrown around on bulletin boards, I keep asking for proof of major editing, I keep not getting it.

But there may well be a first time for it...

There was much editing, biblical scholars can verify that. Also, languages change & evolve over the course of centuries, and the priests forget the intended meanings of words that have gone out of use. They also make mistakes in translations, which later become the accepted versions. History is littered with this kind of thing, and the bible is no exception. The King James version has been shown to be woefully incorrect all over the place, as it was written by people who were not very good at translating from the original Hebrew/Greek sources. This is fact. Yet, to millions of Christians, the King James ver. is the 'word of god'.

J.

Originally posted by Boondock78

Originally posted by uberarcanist

Maybe there were some minor changes here and there, but nothing earthshattering.

define earth shattering?
how do you know?
i have been under the impression that there is a wealth of books not in the bible or that have never even been transcribed.
i guess not translating and putting something in is not technically an edit but you guys might be working with 1/4 of a book here man.

Hehehh..yep. The Gnostic Bible to begin with....probably the most accurate ver. of the life of 'Jesus' - yet completely removed from all christian eyes after the official formation of Roman Catholic church by the empire.


J.

Originally posted by uberarcanist

Originally posted by 12m8keall2c

Originally posted by uberarcanist
What makes you say they were edited?

Uhm ... the Many versions of said BIBLE. (?)

Which one do you subscribe to?

... just curious, nothing more.

Enh, NRSV is pretty good. Though you will find that there is not much actual difference between translations. There are many different translations of the exploits of Julius Caesar and you don't see him getting attacked on these boards.

Yeah - but no-one believes Julius Ceasar is a God....anymore that is...

J.

Originally posted by thesun
Considering your predisposition on the subject how do you really expect to learn anything. You have to be neutral,

i don't rightly agree with this. i think i am very open minded. i just see what i see with the data that is there. i even said i want to believe...i really do. i just can't cause there is no data to support it.
now, they find a 400 foot boat 13k above sea level and it will peak my interest in this harry potter like story cause so far, i get nothing out of it.
well, i do see it as a plague type thing with plenty of brainwashing going on.
if they found a boat i wouldn't magically become a believer but, i would certainly devour more material and read between the lines and try and figure it out. thats all one can do right?
thats how i feel anyway.

Originally posted by jimbo999

In fact, if you trace this old tale, it pre-dates the Jewish bible by thousands of years, in books like 'The Epic of Gilgamesh' (Ancient Babylon?), The Summerians and many others also had an identical 'Flood' legend. As did the Mayans, Aztecs, North American natives...and on and on...

The most logical explanation I've found is that these are remnants of oral tradition dealing with the end of the last Ice Age, when sea levels rose considerably due to melting glaciers.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it, until a better historical theory comes along.

Originally posted by jimbo999

The anomoly on Mt. Arrat was proved, I think long ago, to be an unusual rock formation if I recall. Even if they did find an 'arc' up there, it still does not prove there was any God.

the more i think about it, i suppose. if the boat measures up to the bibles scales and all that, it would give weight. plus, don't the bible say it was left to rest on the mountains of ararat? i do not really know about the other flood story(only that there was one)....
just seems like this would be a huge, huge deal in the religious community...but it would be a disaster if proved to not be true.

as fat as it being stated as a rock formation, i read that but i also read that as early as last year, people were wanting to go check it out. people, and lots of them clearly still think it is there.
go friggin look then. none of this satelite radar imaging crap.
prove it....isn't that what it's all about?
proof.....they said there was a 400 foot boat. they also say that very same boat is on ararat...well, show us then.
shows u a 400 foot long boat...then i will belive that much more.

Originally posted by Boondock78
i am not attacking anyone here. i am speaking in general terms.
when i say why don't 'they' go i mean whoever is wualified to fly up there or hike up there or do what needs to be done.
when i say why don't 'they' find it, i include myself. as a hardcore atheist, i'll kick in a 20 spot to see what turns up. can't be bad for me....either way, i learn something huge i didn't kno before.

i am just brach and cynical. i am a**hole ish i know and i apologize. i don't interact with others much...just used to telling it like it is.

i apologise now if i offended anyone.

i will rather along side your right to worship that book. all day every day. i still think it is drivel though. that is my right.
fair is fair

You know....when I was a small child, I believed this big, rotund guy in a red suit used to somehow squeeze down my chimney once a year to leave toys at the end of my bed. One day, someone told me it was a load of baloney - and that this fella didn't exist! I was pretty choked for a few days, let me tell you...but, you know what? I got over it, and realised it was just a children's tale devised to make me feel better or happier maybe. But then I grew up..
No need to apologise for being honest

J.


J.

Originally posted by Boondock78

Originally posted by jimbo999

The anomoly on Mt. Arrat was proved, I think long ago, to be an unusual rock formation if I recall. Even if they did find an 'arc' up there, it still does not prove there was any God.

the more i think about it, i suppose. if the boat measures up to the bibles scales and all that, it would give weight. plus, don't the bible say it was left to rest on the mountains of ararat? i do not really know about the other flood story(only that there was one)....
just seems like this would be a huge, huge deal in the religious community...but it would be a disaster if proved to not be true.

as fat as it being stated as a rock formation, i read that but i also read that as early as last year, people were wanting to go check it out. people, and lots of them clearly still think it is there.
go friggin look then. none of this satelite radar imaging crap.
prove it....isn't that what it's all about?
proof.....they said there was a 400 foot boat. they also say that very same boat is on ararat...well, show us then.
shows u a 400 foot long boat...then i will belive that much more.

Well, like I said - there are far more than just the one tale of the great flood - every culture has one.... Also, aren't there several conflicting biblical accounts as to which mountain? Some say Arrat, others....a different mountain...

The guys that wanted to go up last year may also have agendas remember...like books to write, documentaries to make etc...heh!

J.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

Originally posted by jimbo999

In fact, if you trace this old tale, it pre-dates the Jewish bible by thousands of years, in books like 'The Epic of Gilgamesh' (Ancient Babylon?), The Summerians and many others also had an identical 'Flood' legend. As did the Mayans, Aztecs, North American natives...and on and on...

The most logical explanation I've found is that these are remnants of oral tradition dealing with the end of the last Ice Age, when sea levels rose considerably due to melting glaciers.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it, until a better historical theory comes along.

Sounds pretty logical....as long as the chronology fits....and the geography too of course...fussy b**tard, ain't I?


J.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Why must you atheists always see things in black and white?

The only possibilities you see are:

1. The Bible is 100% literally true
2. The Bible is 100% literally false

What a narrow-minded way of looking at things.

Great post! The Bible is filled with beautiful philosophies and stories. Even if you don't believe in God you can still learn about history and human nature. The Bible really isn't meant to be taken completely literally. What thought would be produced if you had everything spelled out for you in life?

I also don't know why Atheists need proof. I mean it is great being scientific, but even scientists don't need proof to make hypotheses. The Bible is not written to be proof. You have to look inside yourself for that truth.

The reason they don't dig Arafat is because there is no need to, and it is not great to destroy the earth just to garner proof for those lacking in faith. Some people still hold some things sacred.

Do I believe that there is a God? Yes. How did I get to that belief? That's very complicated.

Being raised in the mind-numbing Catholic process of repetition, I have always been a skeptic. So, I did not always blindly believe. I always felt like there was God, but never believed. I did however use the as a crutch Bible in times of my life in great pain (which I've had more than my fair share of) to have greater understanding of things. If nothing else, the Bible is great for that. Of course, so is music.

Originally posted by Boondock78

people worship this book and it's teachings and they give money to it's facilities and they kill for it....

You seem reasonable, so this is not really aimed at you but you made this statement all the same.

I understand that people who are not familiar with Christians wrongly believe that the horrors committed by false Christians are somehow their fault. It is very much the same as saying that all people of German decent alive today are as guilty as Hitler for what he and his thugs did. I, and all other Christians for that matter, have no problem coexisting peacefully with Atheists or other Religions. Christians only kill in self defense of Family or Country. Those that did otherwise are not Christians because to be Christian you have to live Christian.

Another common misunderstanding is that being a Christian means that you think all the horrors in the Old Testament are what we believe is right. It is easy really. These Old Testament Books were examples of parabolic teaching in many cases. What they are untented to teach, is that if you do this bad thing you will get the same in return. For some reason this escapes people who are opposed to Christianity and they use these stories like a weapon against a non-existent foe. The "What you sow, you shall reap" theme is prevalent all through the Old Testament.

I am sure that throughout history many Atheists committed horrible atrocities. I do not however blame all Atheists for their actions. That would be wrong and it would be false logic. One thing people need to understand is that many of the False Christians were either lying about their faith or they were in fact insane. There is nothing taught in Christianity or in the New Testament that would cause anyone to commit an atrocity against others.

As with any human endeavor; people screw stuff up. Translating old documents is no different. It is probably true of all historical documents not authored in a modern tongue. Even with the Rosetta Stone factored in I doubt half the translations where that knowledge was used are correct. They are best guesses.

Even to an Atheist it should be obvious the Old Testament Books contain historical facts about the existence of many sites of interest to historians. To say otherwise would indicate that emotion or hatred is in play. That is not very likely to produce good research. It should also be apparent that many of the stories are probably based on some real occurrence.

From everything I have read the following picture is the most likely candidate for Noah’s Ark. It was scanned using ground penetrating radar and rows of nails were found which coincide with the cross beams of a ship. In addition, it was found surrounded by huge anchor stones. Again though, as EdSinger mentioned Turkey, which it is located in, wants nothing to do with allowing the Christians or Jews to confirm the contents of the Bible. Though Turkey is starting to be more open with the researchers who wish to work on the site, there is still another problem. The local villagers pillage the site of things which they believe are of financial value, so many researchers are doing their work in secret to protect the find.







Also it should be mentioned that Noah’s Flood happened around 3000BC, and if you read the Pseudopigraphil texts on the flood, you’ll notice something. There are references to the flood not only being water, but water and fire. So was there anything which would have caused local devastation by water and fire, which occurred in the middle east around 3000BC?

Umm al Binni impact
Using satellite imagery, Master (2001, 2002) suggests the 3.4 km diameter dry lake may be an impact crater based on its nearly circular, slightly polygonal shape, rim shape, and contrasting shape to other lakes in the region. As to its origin, Master rules out Karst solution, salt doming, tectonic deformation, and igneous intrusion as well as possible bombing or man-made origins of the structure.
Master (2001, 2002) estimates the age of the crater to be

You can actually look at the site on google earth. I have, and have done measurements with the program. The "boat" is a depression in a dry riverbed that's about 20 feet long. A far cry from Ark-size, no matter how long your cubit is. There's actually several of these dry rivulets around the mountain, due to snowmelt, and most have developed boatlike pools. There's also a ridge on the mountain itself that casts a vaguely boatlike shadow, if you gouge out one eye and squint through the other.

It's bupkis

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
You can actually look at the site on google earth. I have, and have done measurements with the program. The "boat" is a depression in a dry riverbed that's about 20 feet long. A far cry from Ark-size, no matter how long your cubit is.

It's bupkis

If you are referring to the site I put up, you are grossly incorrect on the size. The boat is quite large.

AS a matter of fact the Ark is 515 feet long and the following site has a nice picture half way down showing it next to the USS KittyHawk.

Noah’s Ark


Noah's Ark at 515 feet compared to the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier. Graphics Mark Johnson, ArkFind.com
The length of the ruins of the ark is 515 ft., which is exactly 300 Royal Egyptian cubits (20.6 inches)! Moses was schooled in Egypt and was not familiar with the Hebrew cubit which was not even in existence when Moses wrote Genesis.

Also according to this site, the Government of Turkey has in fact admitted that they believe this site to be Noah’s Ark, and have built a national park and visitor center in the area.

he Turkish government has double-verified Mr. Wyatt's tests, and they have given him credit for the discovery. The announcement appeared in Turkey's largest newspaper on June 21, 1987. The area was first designated a National Park, and then it was upgraded to the status of a National Treasure. The government has built a visitors' center overlooking the site and issued official tourist brochures so people of all races can come and see the ark!

Atheism is just another belief system aka religion which replaces the belief in a omnipotent "God" with the belief that there is no "God". It purports itself to be the anti-religion but it simply another religion that replaces God with a belief that humans are actually in control of their own lives and that s**t just happens all by itself. Atheism kinda suchs as a philosophy for living because it places the responsibility for all that's wrong in the world on the atheist because after all there's no God and you aren't doing enough to ensure enough to ensure the health and well being for every species of living thing on the planet at a minimum. At least, we Diests have God and Satan to blame for the world's woes.

Originally posted by frailty

I also don't know why Atheists need proof. I mean it is great being scientific, but even scientists don't need proof to make hypotheses. The Bible is not written to be proof. You have to look inside yourself for that truth.

The reason they don't dig Arafat is because there is no need to, and it is not great to destroy the earth just to garner proof for those lacking in faith.

well, i am no scientist..just a regular guy.
i need proof cause i like knowing things. simple as that....for me anyway.

about there being no need to destroy the earth and look for th boat, please man......
humans have not shown any compassion in destroying this planet for one and you don't need to destroy a mountain to go look for a boat. with enough money and todays tech, a bit of time and manpower, they could give us a go/no go for sure....none of this speculation crap.

Originally posted by crgintx
Atheism is just another belief system aka religion which replaces the belief in a omnipotent "God" with the belief that there is no "God".

Wrong.

Atheism is a lack of belief in god and religion. Christians just like to call us another religion because they can't picture living without one.

Here's the definition of religion:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
# The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
# A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

Atheists don't believe in the supernatural, we don't have spiritual leaders. Sorry you can't conceive of something other than the brainwashing of Christianity. We atheists have managed to break that particular mental conditioning.

Why don't you join us? It's most liberating, not having a sky fairy watching your every move and guilting you out at every turn.

major, it is noce not having a trip laid on you all the time. it is nice being able to live life how you want and use your brain...i don't know why some don't want this.

oh well