lets quit screwing around and prove or disprove the bible: here is how

Originally posted by Toadmund
finding the ark still does not prove that there is a god.

If the ark was ever found . . . i would believe in G*d 110%

That's just me though. A ship of that magnitude would be incredible.

reply to post by Boondock78


exactly i am a hardcore Atheist as well, and i think that if this worldwide flood happened that the water would still have the whole world covered because it would have no where to go and the evaporation process for that much water would take a long time.

reply to post by toasted

I'd like to recommend Pastor Melissa Scott and Pastor Arnold Murray for teachers of The Word. Scott likes to examine scripture to see if the translators did a good enough job of conveying that which was originally in hebrew or greek into english and also look to how it was translated into other languages. But she may be a bit deep for you right off the bat.

I would not recomend Scott unless you want to get turned on as you think you are getting a Bible lesson.
All her stuff is just ripped off from her late husband and she is a grifter and a gold digger and a porn star.

reply to post by edsinger


edsinger,

Can you be more explicit about what this thing the Muslim country wants no part of?

The Mother of all the Holy Scriptures, The Holy Qur'an which all Muslims believe as the Final Testament of God to mankind contains the answers to all issues where the Jews and Christians differed. It is the guardian of the Holy Revelations containing only TRUTH and no crookedness can be found in it.

006.091 And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it) ? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.

002.113 And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture. Even thus speak those who know not. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they differ.

002.120 And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting guardian nor helper.

004.046 Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: "We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not" and "Listen to us!" distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: "We hear and we obey: hear thou, and look at us" it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save a few.

002.135 And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.

004.160 Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way.

006.146 Unto those who are Jews We forbade every animal with claws. And of the oxen and the sheep forbade We unto them the fat thereof save that upon the backs or the entrails, or that which is mixed with the bone. That we awarded them for their rebellion. And lo! we verily are truthful.

009.030 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

062.006 Say (O Muhammad): O ye who are Jews! If ye claim that ye are favoured of Allah apart from (all) mankind, then long for death if ye are truthful.

The Muslims have nothing to hide, they are the Middle Nation, the holder of the TRUTH, who invites to all that is good and forbids only what is evil in the sight of God.

003.104 And there may spring from you a Nation who invite to goodness, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency. Such are they who are successful.

002.143 Thus We have appointed you a middle Nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.

016.089 And (bethink you of) the day when We raise in every Nation a witness against them of their own folk, and We bring thee (Muhammad) as a witness against these. And We reveal the Scripture unto thee as an exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings for those who have surrendered (to Allah).

Moses and Jesus and all the Prophets sent to the Children of Israel will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection, for contaminating God's revelations and teaching Man's doctrine instead of God's doctrine.

027.083 And (remind them of) the Day when We shall gather out of every Nation a host of those who denied Our revelations, and they will be set in array;

028.075 And We shall take out from every Nation a witness and We shall say: Bring your proof. Then they will know that Allah hath the Truth, and all that they invented will have failed them.

To The OP,

The Ark of Noah existed as was confirmed in the Holy Qur'an, whether we find it's remains thousands and thousands of years after the event or not will not change the fact that there is a God who created us and those before us. The sooner you start believing the better, because our days of end are coming just as it did in the Days of Noah, the only difference is there is no ARK made of planks and nails to save mankind, but there is a Spiritual Ark than can save mankind, the belief that THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD.

010.071 Recite unto them the story of Noah, when he told his people: O my people! If my sojourn (here) and my reminding you by Allah's revelations are an offence unto you, in Allah have I put my trust, so decide upon your course of action you and your partners. Let not your course of action be in doubt for you. Then have at me, give me no respite.

011.032 They said: O Noah! Thou hast disputed with us and multiplied disputation with us; now bring upon us that wherewith thou threatenest us, if thou art of the truthful.

011.036 And it was inspired in Noah, (saying): No-one of thy folk will believe save him who hath believed already. Be not distressed because of what they do.

023.023 And We verily sent Noah unto his folk, and he said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. Will ye not ward off (evil) ?

025.037 And Noah's folk, when they denied the messengers, We drowned them and made of them a portent for mankind. We have prepared a painful doom for evil-doers.

029.014 And verily we sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years; and the flood engulfed them, for they were wrong-doers.

Peace!



[edit on 16-7-2008 by queenofangels_17]

reply to post by Mossboss16


Mossboss,

Your reason for disbelieving the event of the Flood is as to be expected since you don't believe in God, who can do all things that the mind of man cannot conceive.

To give you account of how the water disappeared according to the Revelation received by the Last Messenger of God, The Prophet Muhammad, and some other details preceding the Flood.

It was said that the prophet Noah called unto his people to serve God alone and to worship Him only for a span of 900 years. The folks during his time are idolaters and evil-doers and dismissed him as a mad man. He keep calling to them until it was time to board the ship but to no avail. They are deaf to his calls, save the few believers who believed in him.

Here is the true story of Noah as told in the Holy Qur'an, a narration of the unseen things from the Almighty God, who is blessed forevermore.

011.025 And We sent Noah unto his folk (and he said): Lo! I am a plain warner unto you.

011.026 That ye serve none, save Allah. Lo! I fear for you the retribution of a painful Day.

011.027 The chieftains of his folk, who disbelieved, said: We see thee but a mortal like us, and we see not that any follow thee save the most abject among us, without reflection. We behold in you no merit above us - nay, we deem you liars.

011.028 He said: O my people! Bethink you, if I rely on a clear proof from my Lord and there hath come unto me a mercy from His presence, and it hath been made obscure to you, can we compel you to accept it when ye are averse thereto ?

011.029 And O my people! I ask of you no wealth therefor. My reward is the concern only of Allah, and I am not going to thrust away those who believe - Lo! they have to meet their Lord! - but I see you a folk that are ignorant.

011.030 And, O my people! who would deliver me from Allah if I thrust them away ? Will ye not then reflect ?

011.031 I say not unto you: "I have the treasures of Allah" nor "I have knowledge of the Unseen," nor say I: "Lo! I am an angel!" Nor say I unto those whom your eyes scorn that Allah will not give them good - Allah knoweth best what is in their hearts - Lo! then indeed I should be of the wrong-doers.

011.032 They said: O Noah! Thou hast disputed with us and multiplied disputation with us; now bring upon us that wherewith thou threatenest us, if thou art of the truthful.

011.033 He said: Only Allah will bring it upon you if He will, and ye can by no means escape.

011.034 My counsel will not profit you if I were minded to advise you, if Allah's will is to keep you astray. He is your Lord and unto Him ye will be brought back.

011.035 Or say they (again): He hath invented it ? Say: If I have invented it, upon me be my crimes, but I am innocent of (all) that ye commit.

011.036 And it was inspired in Noah, (saying): No-one of thy folk will believe save him who hath believed already. Be not distressed because of what they do.

011.037 Build the ship under Our eyes and by Our inspiration, and speak not unto Me on behalf of those who do wrong. Lo! they will be drowned.

011.038 And he was building the ship, and every time that chieftains of his people passed him, they made mock of him. He said: Though ye make mock of Us, yet We mock at you even as ye mock;

011.039 And ye shall know to whom a punishment that will confound him cometh, and upon whom a lasting doom will fall.

011.040 (Thus it was) till, when Our commandment came to pass and the oven gushed forth water, We said: Load therein two of every kind, a pair (the male and female), and thy household, save him against whom the word hath gone forth already, and those who believe. And but a few were they who believed with him.

011.041 And he said: Embark therein! In the name of Allah be its course and its mooring. Lo! my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.

011.042 And it sailed with them amid waves like mountains, and Noah cried unto his son - and he was standing aloof - O my son! Come ride with us, and be not with the disbelievers.

011.043 He said: I shall betake me to some mountain that will save me from the water. (Noah) said: This day there is none that saveth from the commandment of Allah save him on whom He hath had mercy. And the wave came in between them, so he was among the drowned.

011.044 And it was said: O earth! Swallow thy water and, O sky! be cleared of clouds! And the water was made to subside. And the commandment was fulfilled. And it (the ship) came to rest upon (the mount) Al-Judi and it was said: A far removal for wrongdoing folk!

011.045 And Noah cried unto his Lord and said: My Lord! Lo! my son is of my household! Surely Thy promise is the truth and Thou are the Most Just of Judges.

011.046 He said: O Noah! Lo! he is not of thy household; lo! he is of evil conduct, so ask not of Me that whereof thou hast no knowledge. I admonish thee lest thou be among the ignorant.

011.047 He said: My Lord! Lo! in Thee do I seek refuge (from the sin) that I should ask of Thee that whereof I have no knowledge. Unless Thou forgive me and have mercy on me I shall be among the lost.

011.048 It was said (unto him): O Noah! Go thou down (from the mountain) with peace from Us and blessings upon thee and some nations (that will spring) from those with thee. (There will be other) nations unto whom We shall give enjoyment a long while and then a painful doom from Us will overtake them.

011.049 This is of the tidings of the Unseen which We inspire in thee (Muhammad). Thou thyself knewest it not, nor did thy folk (know it) before this. Then have patience. Lo! the sequel is for those who ward off (evil).

054.009 The folk of Noah denied before them, yea, they denied Our slave and said: A madman; and he was repulsed.

011.116 If only there had been among the generations before you men possessing a remnant (of good sense) to warn (their people) from corruption in the earth, as did a few of those whom We saved from them! The wrong-doers followed that by which they were made sapless, and were guilty.

How can you not believe in God?

002.028 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.

025.003 Yet they choose beside Him other gods who create naught but are themselves created, and possess not hurt nor profit for themselves, and possess not death nor life, nor power to raise the dead.

reply to post by JPhish


JPhish,

This belief will not avail you anything if by now you still don't believe the existence of God.

006.158 Wait they, indeed, for nothing less than that the angels should come unto them, or thy Lord should come, or there should come one of the portents from thy Lord ? In the day when one of the portents from thy Lord cometh, its belief availeth naught a soul which theretofore believed not, nor in its belief earned good (by works). Say: Wait ye! Lo! We (too) are waiting.

Even the Pharaoh professed belief in God when he saw the reality of his drowning, but his belief availed him naught.

010.090 And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no God save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).

010.091 What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers ?

010.092 But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents.

The preserved body of the Pharaoh is one of God's signs, and a promise fulfilled in our generation, the last until the Day of Judgment.

www.55a.net...

www.youtube.com...


The folks of Moses asked more than you though, they wanted to see God plainly before they believe.

002.055 And when ye said: O Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly; and even while ye gazed the lightning seized you.

Lightning seized them for their disbelief.

All creations in the heavens and the earth are proofs of the presence of an Unseen Creator, God.

012.105 How many a portent is there in the heavens and the earth which they pass by with face averted!


Another one of God's signs is DEATH, it is a fact that people dies, can you tell of any living creature who can avert his death when his time comes?Who causes life and death except God? Praise and Glory be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds.

006.002 He it is Who hath created you from clay, and hath decreed a term for you. A term is fixed with Him. Yet still ye doubt!

Science has already proven that man is indeed created from clay;

www.islamicmedicine.org...

016.004 He hath created man from a drop of fluid, yet behold! he is an open opponent.

-- and afterwards from a drop of semen!

www.islamicmedicine.org...


013.016 Say (O Muhammad): Who is Lord of the heavens and the earth ? Say: Allah. Say: Take ye then (others) beside Him for protectors, which, even for themselves, have neither benefit nor hurt ? Say: Is the blind man equal to the seer, or is darkness equal to light ? Or assign they unto Allah partners who created the like of His creation so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them ? Say: Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Almighty.

016.081 And Allah hath given you, of that which He hath created, shelter from the sun; and hath given you places of refuge in the mountains, and hath given you coats to ward off the heat from you, and coats (of armour) to save you from your own foolhardiness. Thus doth He perfect His favour unto you, in order that ye may surrender (unto Him).

022.005 O mankind! if ye are in doubt concerning the Resurrection, then lo! We have created you from dust, then from a drop of seed, then from a clot, then from a little lump of flesh shapely and shapeless, that We may make (it) clear for you. And We cause what We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed time, and afterward We bring you forth as infants, then (give you growth) that ye attain your full strength. And among you there is he who dieth (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the most abject time of life, so that, after knowledge, he knoweth naught. And thou (Muhammad) seest the earth barren, but when We send down water thereon, it doth thrill and swell and put forth every lovely kind (of growth).


AND -- for married couples there are signs from God also;

030.021 And of His signs is this: He created for you helpmeets from yourselves that ye might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who reflect.

030.030 So set thy purpose (O Muhammad) for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature (framed) of Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not -

May God guide us all to the straight path, the time of troubles are at hand, who can save us from harm except God have mercy on us?

042.052 And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our command. Thou knewest not what the Scripture was, nor what the faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! thou verily dost guide unto a right path.

God guides whomever wills to be guided to the straight path.

Peace!

reply to post by jmdewey60



"" All her stuff is just ripped off from her late husband and she is a grifter and a gold digger and a porn star. ""

Oh my, are we being a bit dramatic here?..

I'll admit, the singing don't work for me, and I was concerned upon seeing some baubles on her wrist once....

Tell me more about this gold digger part, then on to the porn star...providing you're just not smearing her without cause..


In any event, whenever I do watch her, I stay focused on "the work" of her exploring The Word, and I found it to be very interesting, but I do prefer Pastor Murray.

I'll be looking fwd to your response...

reply to post by Maya432



" if it is a test.... over all, WE HAVE FAILED "


yes, it is a test.

if you have failed, and, if you are sincere, you can repent

reply to post by Maya432

b)its a test.... for each person ....thats asks one question..
Will you be led blindly like a sheep?

I do not believe life is a test because there is zero chance of passing, if it was.
If there was a test that we could pass, there would be no need for Christ.

Originally posted by Boondock78
let me first say that i am a hardcore atheist and don't believe in the bible or the word at all. not one single iota. that said,

Hebrew is the main language of the bible, not Greek. Even the NT gospel was originally written in Aramaic/Hebrew, see Gospel Q. [edit:]iota is a Gr. char. The closest in Hebr. would be Jod[/edit]

we can damn sure scale this mountain and see if there is a 400 foot boat or remnants of up there.

[source]http://wnd.com/images2/AraratAnomaly1.jpg[/source]

Huh? 400 foot fossil with metal bolts every ell.

[edit:]every other cubit (human anatomical measures)[/edit]

[edit on 16/7/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

[edit on 16/7/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

reply to post by uberarcanist


100% either way? you just described atheism and theism. but u dont take Agnosticism in to consideration

Originally posted by Boondock78
let me first say that i am a hardcore atheist and don't believe in the bible or the word at all. not one single iota. that said, i have a thirst for knowledge. i would very much like to KNOW the score here know what i mean.

Well, at least you are being upfront about it. That puts you ahead of most atheists on the board.

so it is 'rumored' that noah's ark rests on mt ararat...now, i have been fascinated with this and i just started really reading about it. basically, IF the ark is ever found that would basically prove that all that bible rambling really happened. it would be an insanely important artifact. it would end a several thousand year old argument.

No, there would still be those who would question and challenge the Bible on other grounds. But you are very correct that this would be one of those findings that would put everything in a new light.

get the funds together from various churches, donations, grants, whatever and get on up the mountain....what gives with that?

First, that assumes that Mt Ararat is the location, rather than the Mountains of Ararat, but lets play the game anyways, shall we?.....

Sure, we'll go..... just as soon as Armenia and Turkey stop threatening to wage war with each other.

See, the area is disputed by both countries. Hotly disputed. When the old USSR annexed the territory, regular Ark expeditions stopped cold. When the USSR broke up, and Armenia became a soverign nation, they still held a bit of a grudge over the 1915 MASSACRE of Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Empire.

So until the Armenians get over that little "misunderstanding", don't look for more than satelite photos of the area.

my opinion???????????

Oh, do tell....

they're afraid of not finding anything. why else would they/we/humans not go check that out?

Which, of course, is why prior to the Ottomans and their muderous ways, there have been searches for the Ark for OVER 1500 YEARS!!! Goodness,

And what do you EXPECT to find? If you think you're going to find an intact boat, you're nuts! At best what you will find is perhaps some petrified wood that shows evidence of hand tooling and a possible landing spot in roughly the shape and size of the ship. This Website has some interesting pictures that could be a landing site, but most likely isn't.

of course if the boat is not there that does not mean all the bible babble never happened cause it could have...BUT, if it is there, then DAMN.....proof. there it is. there IS a god. there WAS a flood.
why do 'they' not want to prive this?

Who says we don't? The word most often translated as "Faith" in the NT is the Greek word "pistis". Aristotle defined pistis when used as a noun as "forensic proof" and as a verb as "trust based on proof or prior trustworthiness". Faith isn't "belief in something you cannot proove", but trust in something already proven! So I would love to go to Turkey and climb that notoriously hard mountain and find a petrified timber with "Noah loves Yahweh" carved into it.

But the situation is far more complicated than you realize. The late Ron Wyatt, as dubious a person as has EVER been involved in the Ark search, was kidnapped at Mt Ararat at gunpoint. Until the region is safer, don't expect much in the way of searches on the ground.

reply to post by Boondock78


There is a belief that the Ark of the Covenant may by in a small temple in Ethiopia. When the temple in Jeruslem was destroyed the last time, the priests stole it out of the Holy of Holies and first took it to Egypt and the on the Sumeria and from there to Ethiopia. They claim they have it there and guard it 24 hours a day. They will not let anyone in to see it.

Me, I am not sure if the Ark of the Covenant is still on this earth as it was the power of God.

What I do believe is that if both Noah's Ark and the Ark of the Covenant are here they will be discovered when God want's them to be.

Now faith is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see. (Hebrews 11:1)


Peace to you
Grandma

This may or may not do what you want it to do

www.proofthatgodexists.org...

I was looking for a printed booklet on the same subject and found this.

FWIW

reply to post by Boondock78


Love the title, but your premise is bunk.

Find Noah's Ark?

How about trying to find cohesion between Matthew and Luke's nativity story?

The New Testament alone proves it's all bunk.

reply to post by jmdewey60




I just found some of her stuff to be quite interesting,

and she is easy on the eyes

but after some further thought, you are right, and I won't give her another recco.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by toasted]

reply to post by 12m8keall2c


Hi guys i have been reading this thread and i want to ask you this: Ypu really believe the Ark story.. i mean cmmon.. to debate it? The earth can not flood even if all the polar ice would melt... so earth flood no way... second how can you get all the animals all across the earth in one Ark? I dear any1 to try that today using all the technology and then stuff them all in that little little Ark.. cmmon guys....

reply to post by Pilgrim1980


Pilgrim1980:

The Lord has all his creation at his disposial. He doesn't need modern tech stuff to do what ever he wants. I don't have a hard time believing it. God is the great "I AM" there is nothing beyond his control. If it was his plan then He had it all worked out to the last detail.


Peace,
Grandma

I agree. I don't believe in god, but I think that some of the things in the Bible may have happened, just not how they really happened. People wrote down what happened through their eyes. For example, the whole Noha's ark thing, floods happen all the time; it doesn't mean it was god sent. What I mean is, we can explain eathquakes and sicknesses and all that because we have the technology to do so, thousands of years ago they made stories to make senes of it, like Greeks did with their gods.

There is no way in H..ll that anyone can disprove an other persons inspiration.

If a person dont believe in God or a creation. Nothing you or anyone else say would ever change his mind. He is going to have to make up his own mind.
You can probably force a person to admit that there is a God, but you can not force him to believe in a God.

Believing in God is a feeling a inspiration. If you dont have any of that. God would just be fiction written about in a book.

The knowledge of things dont give you the knowledge of love.

What is the absolute truth!! A lot of people would say that it is God. A human sure ain't it lol. Because humans make lies sound like the truth and the truth sound like a lie.


[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]