UK under attack, who is to blame?

Originally posted by Ste2652

Errr... it wasn't Americans in that car. It's almost certainly not Americans who left those bombs in London, either.

Quite honestly, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are used as excuses - remember what happened before them? Those planes crashed into the WTC, the Pentagon and that field? Remember what happened prior to 9/11? (The car bomb outside the WTC, the USS Cole bombing, the attacks on US Embassies in 1998)

Whether we stay in Iraq/Afghanistan or not, terrorists will still find an excuse as they did before either of these conflicts started. The sad thing is that some people believe that leaving Iraq/Afghanistan will make everything ok... I sincerely doubt it will. There's no magic formula for stopping terrorism.

[edit on 1/7/07 by Ste2652]

are u serious?
do ppl still not comprehend the whole thing?

first of all nobody saw any pics of who left bombs in those cars.

your most honestly makes no sense at all, and I apologize but it kinda makes me think your grasp of politics and current events are somewhat limited.

Yes there were attacks before 9/11 and before iraq.
cuz there was always the foreign policy and free trade policies.
that has always been a problem and always will be a problem until something changes which it might not.

Afganistan and Iraq are used as excuses?
no u know what's an excuse? saying there are WMD in Iraq so let's invade them. ok no wmd, but let's stay and get rid of the regime, okay now let's still stay because insurgents are running wild(of course they are get the hell outtttttttttt), oh u don't believe troops should be in Iraq, don't u know what they did on 9/11? wait wait, what does 9/11 have to do with Iraq again?

Those are excuses my friend!

Getting out of Iraq will make no difference? First of all you are not even able to afford staying in iraq, stop borrowing money from China.

Do u know how many excuses there are to stay in that country where there's alot of Oil?

Originally posted by Chupa101
UK under attack, who is to blame?

The PERPS are to blame. Personal responsibility. It was their choice to act uncivilized and attempt to murder thousands of people. It's their fault.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
no one is to blame other than the slaves?

The perps weren't slaves.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Does choosing a wrong way to express your anger necessarily make your anger invalid?

They got themselves angry. There is no need for their anger. It's all self imposed. AND the fact that they are 'angry' doesn't matter. They broke the laws of civilized society and tried to mass kill thousands.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
it's not inconceivable that the government could have goaded Muslims into doing it and provided them with the means.

It's also not inconveivable that radical islamic terrorists joyfully did this themselves and they provided themselves with the means to do it. Radical Islamics do it all the time .. all over the world.

Originally posted by The_Coo
the law abiding Muslim population will be the biggest losers in the long run.

Yes. Very true. The terrorists are hurting their own.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Terrorists are the biggest enemy to muslims more than anyone else.

Absolutely. Very true.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Muslim fundamentalists shouldn't resort to violence in this manner to achieve their goal, there are much better ways to do this with non-violence.

Sure. But they sure dont' seem to want to go that route.

the evils of america and uk are the tools of persuasion used to convert them.

No. It's RADICAL Islam that says no one can live unless they are fundamentalist muslim. THAT is the tool .. the brainwashing .. that causes these things.

Originally posted by ImplementOfWar
I personally beleive that these events are fake.

They looked very real on the TV to me. They looked very real and very deadly.

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
Blame and then Nuke America. That might solve something.

:shk: and then watch as Europe and Canada are taken over by the Russians and China (because America and our nuclear/military capacity to help keep ya'll free is gone) .. and watch as Europe is inundated with Islamics from the Middle East (oh wait .. the immigration laws in the UK and France already allow for the inundation ... )

Originally posted by FlyersFan
:shk: and then watch as Europe and Canada are taken over by the Russians and China (because America and our nuclear/military capacity to help keep ya'll free is gone) .. and watch as Europe is inundated with Islamics from the Middle East (oh wait .. the immigration laws in the UK and France already allow for the inundation ... )

Wow!
No offense but u seem like the one who is brainwashed.

Whether you believe it's radical islam that converted them or not is irrelevant.

The foreign policy is unfair, there are too many american troops in too many countries where they do not belong, free trade policies keep third world countries third world.

And as far as the perps weren't slaves, lol, the slaves analogy was just that, an analogy and a very valid one.

They did not get themselves angry, american injustice got them angry
Terroism will never stop as long as there are people like you who believe that you can do anything and go anywhere you want.

They aren't bombing you because you own an HDTV, that's what the media wants you to think.

You are more dangerous than terroists, as i was reading your post I found myself saying "God help us all"

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[edit on 1/7/07 by masqua]

These attacks in England are being perpetrated by real terrorist and if you cant see that then you must be clueless. I will admit 7/7 is highly suspicious but these guys are the real deal. To all who accuse the United States of being evil terrorist. First we have been attacked many times by Arab terrorist long before we attacked any Arab country. We fight for freedom and halve helped many nations in their fight for the same. We give billions of dollars each year in aid to nations while our own people could use that money. When a country has a major problem who do they call for help? One of the only countries who halve tried to rule the world was England. Americans are not getting any oil, We are paying more for it do to our confronting terrorist states. Most Americans thought we should halve left Iraq right after we got Saddam but no we are trying to rebuild a nation and not leave Iraq to be ran over by Iran. If the Arab extremist want to see terror then let them try to car bomb places in the U.S. Americans will drag Arabs out of their homes and shoot them in the streets and our government wont be able to stop it. Thats why America is not being attacked. After 9/11 Bush could halve nuked Afghanistan or Iraq and know one would have said squat and to be quite frank thats what Americans wanted at the time. Take a good look at history and ask yourself who is evil? The U.S. , England or Arab terrorist.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
These attacks in England are being perpetrated by real terrorist and if you cant see that then you must be clueless. I will admit 7/7 is highly suspicious but these guys are the real deal. To all who accuse the United States of being evil terrorist. First we have been attacked many times by Arab terrorist long before we attacked any Arab country. We fight for freedom and halve helped many nations in their fight for the same. We give billions of dollars each year in aid to nations while our own people could use that money. When a country has a major problem who do they call for help? One of the only countries who halve tried to rule the world was England. Americans are not getting any oil, We are paying more for it do to our confronting terrorist states. Most Americans thought we should halve left Iraq right after we got Saddam but no we are trying to rebuild a nation and not leave Iraq to be ran over by Iran. If the Arab extremist want to see terror then let them try to car bomb places in the U.S. Americans will drag Arabs out of their homes and shoot them in the streets and our government wont be able to stop it. Thats why America is not being attacked. After 9/11 Bush could halve nuked Afghanistan or Iraq and know one would have said squat and to be quite frank thats what Americans wanted at the time. Take a good look at history and ask yourself who is evil? The U.S. , England or Arab terrorist.

To this day there are still troops in Korea, that is inexcusable.
Is it not evil that 14 military fortified embassies are being built in Iraq?
We aren't helping Iraq, it is a fact that Iraq is a more dangerous place now then before we got there.

U.S., England and arab terroists, all 3 are evil. There doesn't have to be a good guy here, they all have their own agendas. But don't forget Israel.

And america is way too pro-Israel and you know that.

And as far as financial aid is concerned, it's like mortgage.
These third world countries won't say no to help, but by taking these loans that they might never be able to pay back the U.S will end up owning these countries due to debt. Same thing happens in the ghetto areas of america.

Don't tell me they are trying to help any country, it's a known fact that america only cares about it's own interests. It only helps other countries if there is something for them to gain, that's why they never help out Congo, you do know how horrible it is in Congo right, no help there nonetheless. No help in any african country other than aids infected vaccines and arms(weapons) dealing.

I often hear people saying look at these muslims, they use non-muslims as human shields. LOL, Israel started that by using muslim kids as human shields.

Read the foreign policy and free trade policies and then tell me that the U.S. doesn't care about only itself. You cannot debate this fact.

You all keep saying you got attacked before arabs attacked you, but I keep telling you all the foreign policy was always there during those times.

And it's not that simple to just nuke arab countries, arabs make up like 17% of the american economy as foreign investors which represents trillions.

[edit on 1-7-2007 by ModernAcademia]

Chupa101 - UK under attack, who is to blame?

the perps are,
we can try and discover whatever the perps grievances are
and construct reasons for their motivation to inflict harm...

the perps wear the cloak of radical Islam, as a convienient deflection...
but it all boils down to de-humanizing all the other people who don't
accept the perps values, standards or worldviews...

the former British Commonwealth (aka empire) and all the opined 'injustices' the British dealt to various populations all over the world could be one reason for attacks on the unarmed civilian population.

To create an atmosphere of fear and panic could be another

Anarchy could be another

A 'Clash of Civilizations' theme could be a motivation

Former Pres. Clinton, for 8 years juggled the issue of terrorists,
as being just criminals or an ideological Army with a cause...
i'd say terrorists are not just 'one-or-the-other'...but are or can be both!



[edit on 1-7-2007 by St Udio]

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
first of all nobody saw any pics of who left bombs in those cars.

So you think it might be Americans who did this? Are you serious?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
your most honestly makes no sense at all, and I apologize but it kinda makes me think your grasp of politics and current events are somewhat limited.

The fact that you seem to think leaving Iraq and Afghanistan would work as a 'miracle cure' makes me question your grasp of politics and current events.

Perhaps you've completely misunderstood or misread what I've written: I'm not making any kind of comment on the legality or morality of Iraq and Afghanistan or any other conflict. All I'm saying is that, even if we leave, terrorists aren't just going to go away. If you think they'll do that then you're very naive.

Originally posted by Ste2652

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
first of all nobody saw any pics of who left bombs in those cars.

So you think it might be Americans who did this? Are you serious?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
your most honestly makes no sense at all, and I apologize but it kinda makes me think your grasp of politics and current events are somewhat limited.

The fact that you seem to think leaving Iraq and Afghanistan would work as a 'miracle cure' makes me question your grasp of politics and current events.

Perhaps you've completely misunderstood or misread what I've written: I'm not making any kind of comment on the legality or morality of Iraq and Afghanistan or any other conflict. All I'm saying is that, even if we leave, terrorists aren't just going to go away. If you think they'll do that then you're very naive.

All of you, my god.
Afghanistan and Iraq, Afghanistan and Iraq.
Holy Moly!

I have keep repeating, it's not onlya bout Iraq and Afghanistan, it's also about Policiessssssssssssssssss.

It's not only those two countries, how many other countries are the U.S & Britain trying to police?

[edit on 1-7-2007 by ModernAcademia]

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
It's not only those two countries, how many other countries are the U.S trying to police?

So... what... you advocate a policy of appeasement/isolationism?

They don't work either. When Britain and the US adopted those kind of ideas in the 1930s (and early 1940s for the US), a world war followed resulting in the deaths of millions worldwide.

But I'm interested... what kind of policies do you think the US should adopt? U2U me if you don't want to go off-topic in this thread. I'm genuinely interested.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
You are more dangerous than terroists, as i was reading your post I found myself saying "God help us all"

You are funny. The FACT is that without the USA and our nuclear deterant then the Chinese would move right into Canada and Europe would be a worse mess. So any notion of ‘blame America and then nuke it’ … is suicide. It’s a hard pill for anti-Ameircans to swallow ... but it’s the truth.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
They did not get themselves angry, american injustice got them angry

Nope. The radical islamics have always been 'angry' at everyone who isn't radical islamic. They've been that way since 622 AD . We didn't make them angry. They make themselves angry.


AGAIN - the only ones to blame are the PERPs themselves. THEY used their free will to attempt mass murder and to be uncivilized. THEY are to blame. Period.

there are radical islamics and there are radical christians.
there are radical anti-abortionists and radical everythnigssssss.
it's not only muslims.

Look at the republican presidential debate, they just wanted Ron Paul to shut up and say they hate us because of our freedoms. You are falling into the same trap.

Some are radical islamics and others are not, yes it is hard to differentiate which is which no doubt, but they are different.

Look at Rosie O'Donnell. She said many times on the view that troops should get out of Iraq and spoke of other possible conspiracies.
Did you follow that news? How much effort did the media put into making a clown out of her? How much effort did Fox News put in to give her a bad name?

Bill o'reilly said if u don't agree with what the military are doing than you should just SHUT UP. that's facism all the way.

What is the relevance? It's about what we are being almost forced to believe, that's what it's about.

Anyone who says the american govt. is at fault, the media twists it around EVERYTIME and says "the american ppl are not at fault". They are trying to anger viewers and make them think that saying the govt. is a fault equals the american ppl is at fault.

and yes this is very relevant to the topic

But you didn't answer my question, ModernAcademia.

Originally posted by Ste2652
But I'm interested... what kind of policies do you think the US should adopt? U2U me if you don't want to go off-topic in this thread. I'm genuinely interested.

If you think current policies are at fault, what alternatives do you propose?

Originally posted by Ste2652
But you didn't answer my question, ModernAcademia.

Originally posted by Ste2652
But I'm interested... what kind of policies do you think the US should adopt? U2U me if you don't want to go off-topic in this thread. I'm genuinely interested.

If you think current policies are at fault, what alternatives do you propose?

I mean anyone who has read the foreign policies and free trade polices knows that it's extremely selfish # that keep the poor poor and the rich rich.

The answer to your question is very simple where u might be looking for an answer more complicated.

1) We need to stop policing the world
2) Policy changes that are fair, that's basically it.

I don't know the policies by heart so i couldn't go that in depth.
However I wouldn't mind but that would deserve it's own thread.

Can someone make that thread and post the link in here?
I'm still getting acquainted with ats and where to post what.

My theory is that an MI5 undercover agent working with Islamic youth convinced several mentally challenge individuals to attack "U.K. for islam". However, I think 2 of the patsies involved in this false flag bailed on the op leaving the 3rd rather messy attack left.

First car found in the parking lot was just abandoned. In the second car the driver probably got all liquored up to help him go through with it but got a little too drunk and crashed the car.

This was supposed to be a successful trifecta attack with 3 bombings mass casualties resulting in a major overhaul of security in the U.K. including that pesky law they are trying to pass allowing detainment for 90 days without evidence. MI5 underestimated the will of the patsies to keep on living and they overestimate the effect that false flags have on the public.

Its working in this forum with people talking about immigration and radical islam but be honest with yourselves this was the NWO test for Gordon Brown this is how they do it they did it with bush and now with Brown. We are all very lucky that the secret service failed this time.

This was a false flag. Even with all proof that this is how governments run things we still can't identify them and even if we do we are afraid to speak about them afraid of a conspiracy label. Not me.

Terrorist sure get off easy on everything they do. No matter what it is, it must be America's fault. Or, we brought it on ourselves. USA starting to mean United Scapegoat in America. Where we are the only wrong. All the rest of the world is right.

I think we should set something up where each American gets paddled everyday by a terrorist. Well just those that actually think terrorism is bad. You sympathizers wouldnt have to of course.

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
it's not only muslims.

I never said it was. There are religious extremists everywhere.

You are falling into the same trap.

No, I'm looking at the facts and the facts say - blame the perp.
The PC thing these days is to blame anyone except the one actually
doing the crime. But the fact is that these people made the
PERSONAL CHOICE to try to kill thousands of innocents. They
have only themselves to blame.

Look at Rosie O'Donnell.

No please no. She's awful. And she made herself look like an idiot. The media didn't have to do anything. She's NOT who 'truther's should have
as a spokesperson.

yes this is very relevant to the topic

No, it's not. This thread went from 'who is to blame' for the UK attacks -
to talking about Rosie O'Donnell. That's WAY off topic. But whatever.
Continue as you wish. I have said who is to blame... the perps who
carried out the attacks. (unless you want to add in the brainwashing and
hate speech that they get from their Imams in the Mosques .. then
I'll accept them as instigators .. but the final blame still is with the perps
who attempted mass murder)

I'm Out. Bu-Bye.

If you will follow me for a minute here...

here's an example of the symptom that causes some people to turn to terrorism


" Sunni legislator says he is quitting politics
and joining Resistance"...
link: www.iht.com...

Sunni legislator Abdul-Nissan al-Janabi said Saturday he is quitting Parliment and joining the 'Resistance' because the political process has failed.

...(he further says)...There is no alternative in Iraq other than quitting the political process and returning to armed resistance
because Americans and Iranians are running Iraq

this article is published by a British news source,
now explore for a moment the hopelessness felt by this person that
made a commitment to try & do better for his people.....
but he got brick-walled by the powers that be...

in this case the future terrorist placed blame on the US & Iran, but in his mind the lineup of culprits also include Britian.

Britian might be the easiest & most convienient & accessible 'Target'
for disenfranchized, non-westerners, with some association with radical Islam & the notion of Jihad...to attack as a personal statement!

IF a higher minded individual, seen a situation as 'hopeless' and is proclaiming that he is morphing into a terrorist/resistance fighter....
then hundreds of others, with their own agendas, are deciding to attack
their (preceived, or in actuality) Oppressors!


thanks,

One Word...

Manchurian

Originally posted by FlyersFan
:shk: and then watch as Europe and Canada are taken over by the Russians and China (because America and our nuclear/military capacity to help keep ya'll free is gone) .. and watch as Europe is inundated with Islamics from the Middle East (oh wait .. the immigration laws in the UK and France already allow for the inundation ... )

FF, whilst I am siding with you on this one, I think the above assertion about "Islamic inundation" is way off base. I have been over this with you on several occasions before, if memory serves.

The total Islamic population in Britain, including women and children, is still outnumbered 37-1 by White British.

The birth rate argument does not hold water either.

Whilst in their own countries they might pop out a rugby team's worth of kids, they simply cannot afford to do that hear with the cost of living.

Every Muslim I know or have spoken to has 2 or three kids, max.

I know and have seen white chavs who have 6 or seven (usually by different dads too....).

Me and my GF have two, plus we may have another in the future..

There is no danger of any Muslim takeover based on population and birth rate, whatsoever.

Originally posted by Soraia
The timing is peculiar...right when Gordon Brown took office. He's almost being forced to keep the same line as Tony Blair...his country is under attack. If he was even considering changing course on the war on Terror, that'll have to wait.

I wonder who would profit or be in interested in that?

Exactly - this is the first (IMO) post that has pointed at the underlying issue here. The timing is a little obvious no? I think the British and US governments (or rather the people who control them) are now getting a little TOO cocky. They are so arrogant these days, and arguably with good reason, as the masses still buy all their propaganda hook line and sinker.
I think one day they'll really push it too far, and then the truth will out, and the house of cards will come tumbling down around us.....