Suicide...For a Reason?

I think infovacume may have been referring to the real god, not you

Originally posted by God
infovacume-

Ok God for instance, I know what you are saying is incorrect because I know what I have seen, felt, and have had done for me.

I think you might have me confused with lilblam. He's the one that came up with this whole "truth" thing.
Unless you're referring to my last post? (the one in response to lilblam calling me ignorant) I dunno... I just may be dense.

Come on man , come back down, I am sorry you felt so bad, that you almost took your own life.....

See? That was that lilblam guy.


Herman- I understand what you're saying. Hmm... it's quite difficult to explain what I mean.

But, unless you seek what I'm telling you... you can not understand. You are choosing to be ignorant by choosing to choose choices of ignorant manipulation. How can you learn to rape an elephant unless you actually go and do it... *add more gibberish*

(I'm just kidding about all that elephant stuff and the choosing to choose stuff)

Hmm. It's like our knowledge of things... as far as the entire universe goes... could probably fit into a grain of sand. But then again...how could we possibly understand EVERYTHING anyway......

My head hurts now...

No I was refering to the auctual god not you.

Originally posted by God
I never asked you what the "truth" was. I honestly don't care what you see the "truth" as.

I asked what it is based on. If all we know of the world are lies and deception... then this "truth" must be based on the same lies and deception. You get it?

But the truth exists, and therefore it can be known. To know, one must be ready to accept it and choose to SEEK it. The reason this world is based on lies and deception is because the people allow themselves to be deceived. As soon as you do not, you no longer can be deceived. It's a choice. Therefore, those who CHOOSE truth, can only see truth, and those who CHOOSE lies, do not see the truth. Do YOU get it? You are only vulnerable to deception if you let yourself be deceived.

Even the act of "erasing everything you've ever known"... isn't that part of the whole deception thing?

That only applies to those who have been conditioned to live a lie. If you KNOW the truth, then of course it doesn't apply, does it. The problem is, most people on this planet are in a deep state of illusion, and therefore this statement applies to MOST who read this on the board. How do you know whether you're the one who lived a lie or not? Well if you aren't sure, then it applies.

As for my being ignorant...

I'm simply trying to have a discussion here. That's what message boards are for. Did I touch a nerve or something???

What makes you think you touched a nerve? Do you think I'd have to have "my nerve touched" in order to say what you claim I said?

And for the last time. I don't want to know what your truth is.

It's not mine, it's independent of "ownership". It exists regardless of whether you or I know it, or not. Therefore, if "possession" is applied to a truth, then this apparently makes it SUBJECTIVE, and not truth, as truth is objective.

I'm just wondering how you rationalize all this. When I asked you 'how do you know?'.... I meant exactly that BTW. I didn't mean 'how do I know', if I did I would have asked that instead of my origional question. And yes, there is something I know is 100% certain. WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. That's the real truth, it's as simple as that.
And by that I mean (before you twist my words) all our science, mathmatics, everything is bull#. It doesn't really mean anything.
2x2=4, right? I say who gives a #.

Who gives a # is subjective. If you do not CARE does it make something false? By the way, mathematics isn't false, as long as it's applied in proper context, and we have invented that context.
What I mean is, 2+2=4 is only true when certain premises are true. One must define what 2 means, what + means, what = means, and what 4 means. In a base 2 system (0's and 1's) for example, 2+2 doesn't even exist, it's written entirely different and seen as something else. In a base 3 numbering system system, 2+2 is not 4, but actually 11. So I am correct when I say 2+2 = 11 The devil is as always, in the details.

So how do I know? The same way I know 2+2 = 11. I know that reality has no limit. I also know that God only exists if the definition of same exists - as in the math example. If the definition of 2+2 is DIFFERENT, then the result is different, and 2+2=4 can be FALSE, depending on the definition. You have a mind, and you can KNOW certain things and be absolutely 100% CERTAIN that they are true. If something is true, and you are aware of the truth, then you KNOW something. It's sometimes healthy to doubt all the things that you thought you were certain of and find out that some you're not so certain of. However, you can determine for yourself when you truly KNOW something, and when you are not 100% sure. Mathematics is a good thing to use as an example because it's not TANGIBLE, as our tangible physical reality is mostly illusion. It DOES exist, but our perception of it is the illusive part.

Here's something I do know: SOMETHING EXISTS. We might not know what it looks like or what it is, but something somewhere DOES exist. This is certain. I'll tell you more, I EXIST, because my consciousness exists. I think, therefore I am. I don't exist because I see myself, as sight can be easily faked and can be an illusion. However, if I see SOMETHING, then something does exist, though WHAT IT IS according to my perception can be an illusion.

I can just as easily ask, how do you KNOW that everything is an illusion? How do you KNOW this world is based on lies? Observation, the MENTAL kind. Your mind only lies to you if you let it.

In your last two posts I have absolutely no freakin' idea what you're talking about. It's all matrix-related fluff really. You're the same as discussing something with some religious fanatic. They never say anything relating to what you're saying... they dance around it and spew religious fluff.

What part confuses you?

Advanced being???????!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

There are no gods, but there is an advanced being? Alright. Sorry to laugh... but I guess that could be possible, seeing as nobody knows anything.

Advanced is relative of course. Let me clarify: Relatively to humans.

So lets say that there is this being. Why would it want to control us?

Why do humans control animals? Why do you want to EAT? Why do you want to LIVE? Why does ANYONE want to control ANYONE ELSE, as is commonly observed on our planet. What does this "control" do for the controller anyway? What are the dynamics (in terms of energy perhaps) at work here?

How does it benefit from 'programming us' and keeping us ignorant?

The same way we benefit from not revealing to our livestock what it truly is (if it could understand anyway). It might not be our LIVESTOCK if it found out. When one is in illusion, one is under control. Truth sets you free, as you then SEE the controls. The best way to keep someone a slave, is to make them believe they are free.

You're saying to get past the programming.. erase it... blah blah blah. Isn't the 'removal of the wall of lies' just another part of this so called programing???

I'm not programming you to remove it, I'm only advising! The programming you refer to doesn't come from me.

When I said there's no space or time, think about it also kinda like this: When they insert themselves in the Matrix, they can go to any place instantly because the ENTIRE UNIVERSE of the Matrix, is located in ONE place. It's just DATA on a computer. So there is no distance, but to those inside there is. So that would (sorta) explain how space could not exist, but create the illusion that it does. The lack of existance of time I won't describe, but it's also very obvious if logically observed. Like someone else noted, physics might eliminate it entirely in a few years. Maybe.

Do you mean time as in our perception of time (hours, seconds, years, etc) or do you mean time itself. Our perception of it doesn't exist.... I can understand that. But time itself does exist.

I'd disagree. I'd say time doesn't exist, but only our perception that creates the illusion of time exists.

If it didn't wouldn't there be no change, movement, etc? I've never researched this...so... oh wait.... are you going to answer that by telling me I'm choosing to be ignorant because I haven't researched the physics of weither time exists.

No, I'm going to say that movement is based on your illusion of time.

Then you'll continue on by saying... I can't tell you I can only show you.. yadda yadda yadda? If you are don't bother with my question on time Ignore this whole paragraph.

Now. The theory that time doesn't exist. Isn't that part of the programming? Isn't the advanced being manipulating you into believing this???

No, I don't believe it, I know it. Belief can be manipulated, knowledge cannot. What many call knowledge is in fact their belief, as knowledge is ALWAYS true, and false knowledge doesn't exist.

Now, if you discovered how, teleportation is very much possible. If you could understand this reality, your brain has absolutely no limits to how many "rules" of this reality can be broken. But first, you must learn how to break them. You can instantly teleport yourself to a distant star system, anywhere. Also, you can instantly teleport yourself to ANY time, "future" or "past", if you knew how. All knowledge is available inside your head, in the deep subconscious. If you can figure out how to extract certain bits, there are no limits to your mind's potential. Everything is possible, until believed otherwise

You've achieved this? You can teleport? I'm saying it's not possible BTW, just asking. And oh... please don't write paragraphs on how 'I'm asking you to tell me how to teleport myself to distant stars'. I'm not asking you anything except if you can do this. You simply have to write yes, or no.

No.

I imagine if I started saying this, I'd soon find myself in a nice soft room with a straight jacket and 3 pounds of medication in my skull. I'd be going on major paranoia, schizophrenia, and just outright insane. I'm sure they have 35 more clinical conditions they can apply to me, they've been very busy coming up with clinical conditions for people who might open their mouth about even a hint of "truth" about our reality.

Why would you care if you got locked up in a mental institution??? I mean if...

Knowledge is simply all that there is, and if you think there's anything else that you may ever possibly need for anything, you're lying to yourself. What could you think of that's NOT knowledge?

You have achieved this knowledge... it's all you need... why do you care what happens to you next? Why are you worried about 'chonic depression'? Isn't depression the program/distraction/manipulation?





Being locked up in a room puts a little "hamper" on my search for knowledge. Unless of course they provide me with a computer, so I can network with others, then there's no problem! Networking with others is extremely important, and increases your knowledge exponentially - if such is the goal of the network.

Let's get one thing straight here; WE'RE NOT ROBOTS. Hate to argue with opinions, but time isn't just an illusion crated by our minds yada yada yada. By saying that, you would be saying that if we "re-booted" we could just plain old not age? If our mind wasn't under the illusion that time exhisted then we would'nt age? Some sort of mental fountain of youth? I think you're just thinking too much. I mean anyone can say stuff like "it's just an illusion, it does not exhist" and it's hard to argue with, because there is no real solid evidence either way. However, we do have more proof than you. This seems to be something that you have just conjured up off of something that you read...and for some odd reason, ignoring all theories of logic and reason, believed it. What could you have possibly read or watched *cough* matrix *cough* that would make you just ignore everything. I mean there is solid ground, proof that time does exhist!!! If it was just an illusion of our mind, then we would'nt all be seeing the same thing. We also would'nt be able to feel it. It would spontaniously change when we...forgot it was there. Unless there is some "higher being" that somehow programmed us to ALL see the same exact thing at the same time...feel it, never have it change.. And if there is this programming, how do you know that what you've found isn't just another lie set up by this "higher being" to deceive you? Maybe it knew that you were going to re-search, so he set this up. And like infovacume said, he would'nt allow this to be floating around in the internet.. I mean, is simply believing in God so bad? Like I said, just because what you've found is harder to find, it doesn't mean that it's better or more true. Hate to sound like a typical close minded idiot, but you may have been watching too much matrix, judging by some of the things you've said. Not all of it mind you, you sound smart, but some of it. And about the mental box thing: What I was saying is, thinking outside the box can become a box within it's self. Some people refuse to believe something, just because the mass of the population believes it (or claims to). Maybe there is a reason so many people believe it? Pretend there is no box. Consider christianity, consider everything else. You're refusing to think inside the box, which puts you not outside the box, but in a seperate box altogeather. (I hope this all makes sense, I went out to eat and had like 8,00000 cups of pepsi and cake. Gonna have to run like 26 miles to work this all off) Once again, not to insult you. Believing something alot of people believe isn't ignorance, believing it BECAUSE alot of people believe it is ignorance.

By the way, up there when I said if it didn't exhist.. I didn't mean seeing and feeling time, I meant other things heh heh.

What was the event that OCCURED (proven or triggered)?

And if there is this programming, how do you know that what you've found isn't just another lie set up by this "higher being" to deceive you? Maybe it knew that you were going to re-search, so he set this up.

That was the exact point I was trying to make.

*slams head into a wall repeatedly*

So nobody knows what these illusions are. Besides, of course, you and a select other few, right? You're immune to lies/deception because you know this "truth". Everything is untrue but this one "truth" and there's no possible way that this is just another part of the grand illusion... because you chose to not be decieved anymore.... and POOF there it was.

Riiiiiiiiiight.

What makes you think you touched a nerve? Do you think I'd have to have "my nerve touched" in order to say what you claim I said?

Well, do YOU think that I'd have to think that I touched your nerve in order to say what I claimed you said?
Actually I think I touched nerve because you got a little snippy. I think you're uncomfortable when people suggest that you're falling for the same illusions as the rest of us are.

My not caring certainly doesn't make something false. But.. what I meant is exactly what you said really. 2x2 is going to equal exactly what we want it to be equal to. We want it to equal 4... it could have easily been created to equal 0,1,9,etc.

Here's something I do know: SOMETHING EXISTS.

Yes. That is very observant of you. I agree. But, as herman said before. If there is this mass "truth" our simple human minds are not going to be able to comprehend it any way. All we know are perception of things and that's all we'll ever know.

Why do humans control animals? Why do you want to EAT? Why do you want to LIVE? Why does ANYONE want to control ANYONE ELSE, as is commonly observed on our planet. What does this "control" do for the controller anyway? What are the dynamics (in terms of energy perhaps) at work here?

Okay humans control animals and other humans because it is a basic instinct. When you feel like you're in control of something... for some reason it makes you feel better.... it gives you a sense of satisfaction.... it keeps you busy... you feel like you suceeded... etc.
I tell my dog to sit, he does. It benefits me because I taught him that... it's cute... I can show all my friends, etc. Me benefiting from it being "cute" may be stupid... but it makes me happy. I like being happy... even if it might be an illusion used to control me.

Now an advanced being would be passed all that, wouldn't it? Isn't control a petty human thing? A human perception?

I eat to stay alive... I want to stay alive so I don't die... I don't want to die because I don't know what's waiting for me in death. There could be heaven, could be hell, could be nothing. I also want to stay alive because that's what I'm used to. And it goes on and on and on.

My point being is that an advanced being wouldn't think the way we do. It wouldn't have a need to control us.

Now as for time itself not existing. How come we age then? (as Herman already said) How could we eat? If there was no time wouldn't we just be at a stand still?

You know that time doesn't exist. It is not a belief, it's knowledge. You said before that you know that SOMETHING exists... we might know what it looks like, or what it is, but something somewhere exists. Couldn't time be that something, or santa claus, or Jesus, etc?

By Herman:

You're refusing to think inside the box, which puts you not outside the box, but in a seperate box altogeather. (I hope this all makes sense, I went out to eat and had like 8,00000 cups of pepsi and cake. Gonna have to run like 26 miles to work this all off) Once again, not to insult you. Believing something alot of people believe isn't ignorance, believing it BECAUSE alot of people believe it is ignorance.

See, you're problem is that you seperate yourself from everyone else. I thought a lot of what you're saying was interesting. Instead of replying with a positive response, you reply: Why do you spend all your life in ignorance, then get on ATS and spend 3 minutes in curiosity about some "truth"?
I was simply 'networking'.

Maybe you're ignorant. Maybe you're just repeating things you've read or heard. Because your "truth" thing sounds a lot like this....

www.subgenius.com...

and countless other websites and books.


[Edited on 15-4-2004 by God]

Yeah, to add a little to God's post, and to ask a question at the same time... Did this higher being create us? Or were we just simply there around the same time as it, and it decided to control us? In either case, if there is this higher being and his purpose is just to control us, why would he let us become so advanced? And illusion? If it is powerful enough to create a whole world for an illusion, could'nt "it" have just altered our minds and saved it's self tons and tons of time and hard work? When we keep cows ignorant when they are going in for slaughter, we don't create a whole damned pasture and seperate world for them, we simply fence them in. To get to the point of all this discussion, why don't you just give us a short summary on what you've found and how you found it? What does it matter to you if we believe it or not? I'm sure as hell not going to spend so much time of my life re-searching for something that you could just take 30 seconds to type out, and then I could consider it.

lilblam, I think in a way like you m8.. I understand well what you're saying. It is really hard to explain and also to have people understand what you're talking about. I will just add my opinion, to provoke thoughts.

Some individuals in this world want to control others by all kinds of rules and regulations. Except there is NO possible way you can take their freedom and use them for your own benefits. Slavery just doesn't work.

So instead you need people to freely adapt to your ideas. The only way you can is by manipulating them. Modern ways of manipulation is TV. It just shows a very distorted way of reality.

People only get to know things about stuff that happens which are relatively not important at all. You get entertained by soaps, cartoons, reality shows.
The things you see on the news, doesn't really show you a reality. Things that are very important get edited or wont be broadcasted. These are things mainstream people should not know..

Everywhere you go there are commercials that tell you you need this or that or you will feel bad about it. All the celebrities you know and see, they are all puppets and under control.
Individuals commit suicide because of different reasons, I just KNOW these are also the reasons for it. These people are very confused of who they are and what they are doing here. They create ego's to protect theirselves.

Our minds are constantly influenced and I am VERY aware.. That's why you HAVE TO FORGET EVERYTHING YOU KNOW OR THINK YOU KNOW!!

religions, laws, school everything is fake..
The truth is within..

[Edited on 15-4-2004 by puppetmaster]

[Edited on 15-4-2004 by puppetmaster]

Originally posted by Herman
Let's get one thing straight here; WE'RE NOT ROBOTS. Hate to argue with opinions, but time isn't just an illusion crated by our minds yada yada yada. By saying that, you would be saying that if we "re-booted" we could just plain old not age?

You would still age, if you chose to experience this reality. However, if you're not bound by time then you don't have to experience it if you don't want to. It's all about what part of reality you focus on. All exists simultaneously.

If our mind wasn't under the illusion that time exhisted then we would'nt age? Some sort of mental fountain of youth? I think you're just thinking too much.

We'd still age from the perception of the illusion of time. However, if you are not bound to that perception, you can choose to not age, although you will still age from the perception of those who ARE bound by this illusion.

I mean anyone can say stuff like "it's just an illusion, it does not exhist" and it's hard to argue with, because there is no real solid evidence either way.

There needs not be solid evidence for knowledge to exist. All there is is knowledge anyway, all is just thought.

However, we do have more proof than you.

You have no proof, as 3rd density concept of proof is not proof at all.

This seems to be something that you have just conjured up off of something that you read...and for some odd reason, ignoring all theories of logic and reason, believed it. What could you have possibly read or watched *cough* matrix *cough* that would make you just ignore everything.

False assumption, the matrix has nothing to do with this, although it DOES help me explain these concepts to people like you, only ones more open minded and who do not have a mental block that rejects anything outside their belief systems.

I mean there is solid ground, proof that time does exhist!!!

There is not. Prove it then.

If it was just an illusion of our mind, then we would'nt all be seeing the same thing. We also would'nt be able to feel it.

You don't feel time, and the illusion was imposed on ALL humans, not just random ones.

It would spontaniously change when we...forgot it was there.

You cannot, you are bound to this illusion based on your limited awareness. Expand your awareness, and it will no longer exist for you either. Not just "pretend not exist" but truly cease to exist, you will not perceive anything even remotely resembling "time".

Unless there is some "higher being" that somehow programmed us to ALL see the same exact thing at the same time...feel it, never have it change.. And if there is this programming, how do you know that what you've found isn't just another lie set up by this "higher being" to deceive you?

I cannot say with certainty WHY it is you perceive time, but I can say with absolute certainty that it is an illusion, because that much I understand.

Maybe it knew that you were going to re-search, so he set this up.

He could set up anything he wants, but once I am out to find truth, any attempt to give me false knowledge will fail. This is a fact, and it works the same for all.

And like infovacume said, he would'nt allow this to be floating around in the internet..

You do not know what this being would or would not allow, any more than your pet lizard (if you had one) can guess YOUR thinking.

I mean, is simply believing in God so bad?

Bad is subjective, I never said it's bad.

Like I said, just because what you've found is harder to find, it doesn't mean that it's better or more true.

Of course not, the difficulty of finding something doesn't make it more true. However, when you understand something and SEE it for what it is, this makes it true. Your mind is what determines what is true and what is not, your mind's ability to perceive objective reality.

Question, what would a Christian be more SURE of, that Jesus is really the only Son of God, or that 1+1=2 in a base-10 numbering system?
Which does he BELIEVE, and which does he KNOW? That's the difference, if you can see it here.

Hate to sound like a typical close minded idiot, but you may have been watching too much matrix, judging by some of the things you've said.

NOTHING I said I took from that movie, period. Your assumption that any of what I said was influenced by this movie is false, but assume as you like.

Not all of it mind you, you sound smart, but some of it. And about the mental box thing: What I was saying is, thinking outside the box can become a box within it's self. Some people refuse to believe something, just because the mass of the population believes it (or claims to).

I don't refuse to "believe something" just BECAUSE . I do not believe anything. I strive to objectively find the truth in absolutely ALL THINGS that I encounter, and I try to stay non-prejudiced and non-anticipatory as best I can while doing so. I try to avoid having preference, to stay as objective as possible and simply to try to see what IS, instead of what I'd LIKE IT TO BE.

Maybe there is a reason so many people believe it?

Convincing propaganda. Is that not a good reason for you?

Pretend there is no box. Consider christianity, consider everything else. You're refusing to think inside the box, which puts you not outside the box, but in a seperate box altogeather. (I hope this all makes sense, I went out to eat and had like 8,00000 cups of pepsi and cake. Gonna have to run like 26 miles to work this all off)

What I refuse is the entropic principle. What I refuse is to STOP thinking and become a reaction machine as most people are, to only think what I'm told to think, the way I'm told to think, and when I'm told to think. What I refuse is to simply OBEY orders to demonstrate my "compliance" and "docile nature". What I instead try to do is to find my true self, to strip all the lies off from myself and to see who I truly am. What I try to do is to avoid believing something JUST because everyone believes it so it must be true, but instead try to find the truth MYSELF and stop at nothing until I do. What I try to do is to NOT LIMIT my mind by saying "this is beyond me, I can never figure this out" or "This is not my job, I'll let scientists figure this out" or "I don't worry about these things, all I know is what I'm told".

So yes, I refuse to think INSIDE the box, the box of NON-THINKING, the box of REACTING TO STIMULI, the box SELF-CENTERED ORIENTATION. Instead, I try to NOT LIMIT myself as much as I possibly can, and THAT is precisely what I mean by thinking "outside the box". I refuse to LIMIT my thoughts, and to do this, I must clear mental blocks and fears that otherwise exists and prevent me from thinking about certain things. I try to deactate the mental programming that I have been subjected to (as we all were) since BIRTH.

Once again, this isn't just a REFUSAL TO THINK WHAT OTHERS THINK, it's a refusal to LIMIT the mind, and this takes much work.

Once again, not to insult you. Believing something alot of people believe isn't ignorance, believing it BECAUSE alot of people believe it is ignorance.

Yes, and if I find something that is believed by many people that is indeed TRUE, then I will NOT pretend it's false, as the number of people believing something holds no meaning to me, other than seeing what the general popular consensus is for observation purposes.

There ARE some things that are fundementally true and are believed by certain groups of people (NOTHING is universally believed by all), but NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING requires any BELIEF, it can all be KNOWN if one seeks to know it. People are too lazy to actually try to KNOW things, and therefore they replace it with "belief" instead, hoping that this belief is TRUE, although they're not really sure, but don't want to spend the time MAKING SURE. They have made this choice. They decided that entertaining themselves, and spending all their 'time' with self-pleasing exercises is more important than seeking truth. I don't see this as BAD, I only see it for what it is, which is what I said in the previous sentence - objective observation of what it is, not subjective judgement. However, I have made a different choice from most people, and therefore this choice will lead me (for obvious reasons) AWAY from those who are immersed in illusion. In fact, the more one is immersed in illusions, the more in contrast their mind will be with mine.

-Mike

Originally posted by Herman
Yeah, to add a little to God's post, and to ask a question at the same time... Did this higher being create us? Or were we just simply there around the same time as it, and it decided to control us? In either case, if there is this higher being and his purpose is just to control us, why would he let us become so advanced? And illusion? If it is powerful enough to create a whole world for an illusion, could'nt "it" have just altered our minds and saved it's self tons and tons of time and hard work? When we keep cows ignorant when they are going in for slaughter, we don't create a whole damned pasture and seperate world for them, we simply fence them in. To get to the point of all this discussion, why don't you just give us a short summary on what you've found and how you found it? What does it matter to you if we believe it or not? I'm sure as hell not going to spend so much time of my life re-searching for something that you could just take 30 seconds to type out, and then I could consider it.

Sorry, it takes a life. I'd have to fill up as much space as all the posts on ATS put together, and 90% of it would go one ear and out the other. Once again, it's not just "one thing", although some things are pretty mind-blowing and shocking, since I have also been conditioned to believe big lies - the truth IS stranger than fiction.

Originally posted by God
*slams head into a wall repeatedly*

So nobody knows what these illusions are. Besides, of course, you and a select other few, right? You're immune to lies/deception because you know this "truth". Everything is untrue but this one "truth" and there's no possible way that this is just another part of the grand illusion... because you chose to not be decieved anymore.... and POOF there it was.

Riiiiiiiiiight.

It's not "one truth", the truth is INFINITELY large, as it has no limit. You can say it's "one" if you look at reality as being ONE, but it is also MANY isn't it. It's also an infinite variety, even if it IS all one. So therefore, the truth is not this "one truth", it's "many truths" which constitute THE TRUTH, as opposed to THE LIE, which is simply many lies.
I am immune to lies because I refuse to believe, I only choose to KNOW. If I do not believe, how can I possibly be deceived?

It is really rather simple. If you want to accept lies, that's what you get. If you only seek truth, that's what you get. You get what you seek! There are no "tricks".

Well, do YOU think that I'd have to think that I touched your nerve in order to say what I claimed you said?
Actually I think I touched nerve because you got a little snippy. I think you're uncomfortable when people suggest that you're falling for the same illusions as the rest of us are.

Well, I am still recovering from the illusions. This recovery process takes a long "time". However, I apologize if I seemed to get "snippy", that was not my intention. I did not feel uncomfortable. Yes, you're right, I can be lied to and I still live in a world of illusion. However, by only accepting what I can absolutely 100% verify as TRUTH, and it's not based on my PERCEPTION for the most part, how can I be accepting lies? Please tell me one thing that you know for 100% without absolutely ANY DOUBT - not something you are VERY sure of, assumptions do not count. I mean, something you absolutely KNOW, and understand there this is true OBJETIVELY, it is really absolutely true. Whatever it is, don't limit yourself to stuff like "math" etc. So what is it? And once you do, can you tell me what separates that knowledge from the rest of the things that fill your mind, that mostly constitute "beliefs" or "assumptions", and being REASONABLY SURE, but rarely actually 100% sure?

Here's something I do know: SOMETHING EXISTS.

Yes. That is very observant of you. I agree.

But, as herman said before. If there is this mass "truth" our simple human minds are not going to be able to comprehend it any way. All we know are perception of things and that's all we'll ever know.

Only if you believe that. Why would you limit yourself by saying "I CANNOT possibly learn the truth, as it must be beyond my ability to comprehend". Do you know this statement to be 100% true, or are you making a huge ASSUMPTION here? Why would you assume, before you actually KNOW? Are you not SELF-IMPOSING the limits, are you not creating boundaries for your own mind where none might even EXIST, just by proclaiming that it is senseless to search for truth, since you will never know it anyway, since you cannot comprehend it?

Okay humans control animals and other humans because it is a basic instinct. When you feel like you're in control of something... for some reason it makes you feel better.... it gives you a sense of satisfaction.... it keeps you busy... you feel like you suceeded... etc.
I tell my dog to sit, he does. It benefits me because I taught him that... it's cute... I can show all my friends, etc. Me benefiting from it being "cute" may be stupid... but it makes me happy. I like being happy... even if it might be an illusion used to control me.

Now an advanced being would be passed all that, wouldn't it? Isn't control a petty human thing? A human perception?

That's a big assumption on your part. What do YOU know about what an "advance being" is PAST, and what it's not past? A dog might think: Yeah but an advanced being is past this whole eating thing, it's just something us animals do. Humans are more advanced, yet they still eat. Why would you assume more advanced beings are BEYOND such things as making themselves happy by controlling others, or stealing the energy from others for their own PLEASURE and BENEFIT? Why would you think that just because a being has more awareness and knowledge, it is beyond self-gratification, or SERVICE-TO-SELF? I wouldn't assume that.

I eat to stay alive... I want to stay alive so I don't die... I don't want to die because I don't know what's waiting for me in death. There could be heaven, could be hell, could be nothing. I also want to stay alive because that's what I'm used to. And it goes on and on and on.

From what you have just described, you are a service to self being. You exist primarily (if not only) to serve yourself, and you let yourself be intimidated and blackmailed very easily, as you submit to FEAR, which is a quality of a mind that doesn't know - since you said yourself you're afraid of the unknown. Fear is also a very service to self quality, because what you fear is losing your attachments, and attachments only exist if you serve SELF, because you are attaching YOURSELF to something else, for your OWN benefit. This is your primary focus, this is who you are, and there is nothing WRONG with that. However, the point I'm trying to make is, why would you think that more advanced beings do not have similar DESIRES that you do, and similar qualities? Do you think just because they are more advanced, that they are beyond lust, beyond desire to PLEASE SELF, beyond the urge to CONTROL and have POWER over others? Come on now..

My point being is that an advanced being wouldn't think the way we do. It wouldn't have a need to control us.

Both are assumptions! You do NOT know this, you are simply assuming. Do you know what happens when you assume?

Now as for time itself not existing. How come we age then? (as Herman already said) How could we eat? If there was no time wouldn't we just be at a stand still?

Space is also an illusion. Movement is an illusion, and is very interconnected with the illusion of time. However, you do not have to "stand still" you can be very "ACTIVE" yet time may "stay still" from the perspective of those who are bound by it. You will MOVE, but not in TIME, and therefore you won't move in the same way as we perceive motion through space. For us, Speed = Distance/Time. If you make time=0, then Speed would equal infinity. It would me more like instanteneous jumping from one place to another, and distance wouldn't exist if your speed is infinite.

You know that time doesn't exist. It is not a belief, it's knowledge. You said before that you know that SOMETHING exists... we might know what it looks like, or what it is, but something somewhere exists. Couldn't time be that something, or santa claus, or Jesus, etc?

One thing is COULD IT BE, another thing is, IS IT? Every possibility exists, and yes time does EXIST from your perception, but objectively speaking it's an illusion that only exists for those who perceive it. And in fact, the sooner you understand that it doesn't exist, the sooner you will be able to stop being limited by it. Just think about it, see where you get. Think about time and what you know about it. Apply it to the overall existance of all that is, and see what limitations time would impose etc, and then try to determine if it's possible that such limitations exist, if it's possible for certain things to exist given the existance of time in objective reality.

Did ya read my time post anyway? Do you see logical problems with that?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please don't get hung up on the word "proof" in the title, as those who read things on ATS do not yet see that proof doesn't exist, so I use it to get my point across. Call it a theory instead maybe

By Herman:

You're refusing to think inside the box, which puts you not outside the box, but in a seperate box altogeather. (I hope this all makes sense, I went out to eat and had like 8,00000 cups of pepsi and cake. Gonna have to run like 26 miles to work this all off) Once again, not to insult you. Believing something alot of people believe isn't ignorance, believing it BECAUSE alot of people believe it is ignorance.

See, you're problem is that you seperate yourself from everyone else. I thought a lot of what you're saying was interesting. Instead of replying with a positive response, you reply: Why do you spend all your life in ignorance, then get on ATS and spend 3 minutes in curiosity about some "truth"?
I was simply 'networking'.

Maybe you're ignorant. Maybe you're just repeating things you've read or heard. Because your "truth" thing sounds a lot like this....

www.subgenius.com...

and countless other websites and books.


[Edited on 15-4-2004 by God]

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Maybe some of those "countless websites and books" have bits and pieces of truth that can be assembled and the puzzle can be seen as a whole once that's done? The truth IS out there, it's not absolutely impossible to obtain it. However, it always takes much effort and determination to actually FIND IT, because you goal should be truth, and that's the tricky part.

Ok, it's pretty obvious that there is no convincing you. I mean if you keep saying things like "3rd density proof" just to throw off any solid proof or evidence that we have, then its futile to even try to debate with you. If everyone did that, our courts and juries would become obsolete. A good analogy would be in a murder trial. The court has a gun with the finger prints and DNA of the convicted, and he says "No, those are not mine...Just an illusion that they are mine. It's an illusion set up by the programming in your minds to make you BELEIVE that it is mine" I read your time article. I must say it is very very interesting; it also makes alot of sense where you're coming from. But don't forget (you may have even said this yourself!) "time" is just a word. You can't explain...time. Even without the word, even if everything was standing still that matter that created the universe would have had to come from somwhere. Time has nothing to do with this. If there was never anything there, it would'nt matter if there was time or not. NOBODY will ever know where the essential materials for the big bang (or God in my case) came from. It's impossible for anyone to even begin to comprehend. If there was nothing there, where would it have come from? I know exactly where you are coming from with this "time" doesn't exist thing. In a way, you could be right. Time is sorta created by us. As the seasons change, we've been here longer, things wear out! That's what people call time. We base our clocks off of the way earth rotates, the seasons changing, and when it gets dark and light. THAT is time. It's not an illusion, people really are getting older! That's why we die. We wear out. Time just explains things moving, and aging, and dying, and being born. This is just like a bunch of kids arguing over imaginary friends. "NO!!! My friend is the one that exhists!! You just can't see him cause you're under the illusion that he doesn't exhist!! You can't prove that he doesn't exhist!!" By saying that there is no time, you are really saying that if you're not under that preception, if you've discovered the "truth", then in your own mind, you won't age? You said that only people under the illusion see other people aging. So in your eyes, you'll never get older? You'll never die? We'll see you as aging, but you'll always see yourself as the same age as when you discovered the truth?

Why is this new state of truth is so attracting?
Is it because we can go in there and come back here even if it is disturbing, according to what's been said.
It's like exploring death beforehand, being the necronault. Since most people have chose death as the finish line, they will impose it to themselves as it must have been suggested. They contribute to vegetal life

Feel empathy for the universe.

But I still wonder what event occured when you knew you've found the truth. After thinking about it for a while, I felt some sudden urges to sleep , but I don't see how it could be something more than what Jean-Paul Sartre described as anxiety when he wrote about existentialism. Refuting God in his sytem of lies is maybe the equivalent of refuting the truth like you did in our system. He saw new perspectives to his life, living with a control in less.

Maybe you lived the same as he did.

Time, whether or not you call it "illusion" or not, is a mtter of opinion, not fact.

I may be making an assumption... but isn't your assumption bigger? I think it makes more sense than:

An advanced relatively human being set up this big illusion for us normal humans. It somehow get it's kicks from making sure all we percieve are lies and we never know the truth. Although it's advanced it thinks just like we do.

And yes, because god/being/whatever has so much more knowledge and awareness than I do, I would expect to be beyond self-gratification.

When I was in kindergarten, if someone said: You're a doo doo head. I'd get upset.
Now I'm 19, if a child in kindergarten calls me a doo doo head I laugh.
I laugh because he/she is only a child. I'm an adult.
I could say: Oh yea, well you're a dumb ass little kid and the monster under your bed is going to eat you when you go to sleep. And if that doesn't get you I'll set your house on fire.

That would probably reduce the kid to tears. Why would I want to do that? It'd be too easy, wouldn't you think? How could I take offense to something a 6 year old said?Aren't I passed things like "doo doo head"?

When I was 2 I crapped my pants all the time. I could crap my pants now, any time I like, but I know now that it's better to use the bathroom.

We'd still age from the perception of the illusion of time. However, if you are not bound to that perception, you can choose to not age, although you will still age from the perception of those who ARE bound by this illusion.

Okay. You're not bound to the perception of time, but I am. So you won't age, but I'd percieve you to age?
I'd percieve you to be 100 years old with wrinkles and barely able to walk... but the reality would be that you're really 25 because you choose to be? So if you choose to never die then you'd live forever?

If I somehow proved 100% ,without a doubt to myself that I could create my own universe in my swimming pool. Complete with little creatures and other things... could I do it? Well, yes, of course I could. You wouldn't be able to see it though because you can't percieve my universe, only I can. That wouldn't make it real though.

I don't think I'm limiting myself when I say I can't understand the mysteries of the universe, either. Why do you percieve not being able to understand something as a limitation. Maybe it's just the way that things are.

Why do we always think there's some evil super being trying to control us? Everything wrong in the world is fault of humans alone. We create these things because we don't want to put the blame on ourselves. Why is it so hard for some of us to admit that we'd never be able to understand something?

You keep speaking of lies and illusions. Besides time... name another illusion. Nothing grand...something tiny.

Originally posted by God
You keep speaking of lies and illusions. Besides time... name another illusion. Nothing grand...something tiny.

Bunnies in hats, wealth, poker dealers playing fair, power, perfection, death, oh and of course- cell phone companies with no fine print.

I know you weren't talking to me....but I just thought I'd be asenine and answer anyway.

Ya'll need some loosening up. Go listen to some Buddy Holly or Billy Joel, maybe pop in a Miles Davis album. That way, whether you believe time exists or not, it doesn't really matter, because you're chilled out and got all the time in the world, whether its an illusion or not.

So, has this discussion migrated toward another thread?

I'm really curious about what kinda truth can make you refute your friends, parents and love. Is it '___'?

And I was also wondering if sleeping was another �control� in whats been discussed.

Yeah I must admit I am dieing o know what changed him. Hey man just tell us, we are only wanting to know what fascinates us so much. Spill the beans.