"The Black Man, Is Crazy!"

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's almost like you like the division. Like you don't want to work to get rid of it unless everyone thinks like you and agrees with you.

I understand stating your opinion, but you've been one of the most active people in this thread and you have NOT ONE additive thing to say, except to bolster those who agree with you.

To the contrary, I have found Truthseeka's comments pertinent, additive, and plain old good reading! Let's face it, this is a divisive thread, which could not possibly have a good purpose...

Has anyone noticed that the OP has disappeared? I am wondering if he/she is really black in the first place. Just wondering...

By the way, BH, I like your new avatar! (The man whose name was used to change the world...)

This is a hotbed topic, and has been since the dawn of mass migration into america, as well as freedom for "the black man". Look at the works of Booker T washington. He was the MLK and AL sharpton, and Jesse James figure of the eduardian era 1900-1914

Please go see the musical "Ragtime"

It's message still resonates so deeply with me. It is about that eduardian era, the days when the "american dream" seemed so real and for everyone.

In this play, 3 families interesect all in the pursuit of equality and the american dream.

A rich family related to J.P. Morgan the richest man in the world at the time, A black family whose lives revolve around the search for equality, and to play a mean piano, and A Jewish Latvian immigrant and his daughter who come to america to find a better life.

It's messages are powerful, and the music is moving.

-ADHD

Originally posted by CSIfan
Let's face it, this is a divisive thread, which could not possibly have a good purpose...

Threads are not divisive. People are. And I think this thread has a very important purpose. A good purpose. But I'm not surprised we disagree.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Threads are not divisive. People are. And I think this thread has a very important purpose. A good purpose. But I'm not surprised we disagree.

Of course I disagree, this is not about you. A good purpose? With an offensive title like that?

I disagree with the OP and you agree with him/her, that's natural and acceptable. I don't have a problem with you agreeing with it, but accept your role in this thread, don't reject the obvious or make personal attacks.

IMO, The title of this thread, "The Black Man, Is Crazy" attracted three types of people...1) those who relish this type of thread and are anxious to participate in the bashing; 2) those who want to refute the OP; and 3) the curious board members who wonder what on earth is this?

I know exactly which of these I am.

IMHO, no good could have come out of this discussion. The OP has achieved his goal and pffft! disappeared.

Let's all have a nice day and smile about being "had" once again.

Originally posted by CSIfan
this is not about you.

I have no idea why you would feel the need to say that. Where have I indicated that I think this thread is about me? It's about people, of which I am one. And I am a member here, so I have every right to post, debate and share my opinion about various subjects. Even things not about me. And posting my opinion in a thread doesn't mean that I think the thread is about me.

accept your role in this thread, don't reject the obvious or make personal attacks.

My "role" in this thread is the same as everyone else's. And if I make a personal attack I'm sure the mods can handle it.

I know exactly which of these I am.

Good. So do I.

IMHO, no good could have come out of this discussion.

I'm not surprised you have that opinion. But the outcome of a discussion is directly dependent on the people involved. I thought it was a good and meaningful discussion at times, actually until this post, when you decided to make comments about me instead of the subject. You didn't like my opinion, so you came after me personally.

If this thread ever was about me or the other posters, it's because you made it so, starting with the above post.

You don't participate in a discussion, you attack people with acerbic comments until they don't even want to talk anymore. You wonder what happened to the OP? Read your posts. And then you'll know what happened to me, too.

I'm here to discuss, debate and learn, not trade childish insults. Cheers.

Originally posted by CSIfan
I disagree with the OP and you agree with him/her, that's natural and acceptable. I don't have a problem with you agreeing with it, but accept your role in this thread, don't reject the obvious or make personal attacks.

IMO, The title of this thread, "The Black Man, Is Crazy" attracted three types of people...1) those who relish this type of thread and are anxious to participate in the bashing; 2) those who want to refute the OP; and 3) the curious board members who wonder what on earth is this?

I know exactly which of these I am.

IMHO, no good could have come out of this discussion. The OP has achieved his goal and pffft! disappeared.

Let's all have a nice day and smile about being "had" once again.

Accept her role in this thread? I'm just curious, CSIfan, what is Benevolent Heretic's "role" in this thread?

And which of the list you made do you see yourself as? Let me know, please. I've found that it is best if you come right out and say what you mean unstead of dancing around. That way, we all understand each other.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Accept her role in this thread? I'm just curious, CSIfan, what is Benevolent Heretic's "role" in this thread?

And which of the list you made do you see yourself as? Let me know, please. I've found that it is best if you come right out and say what you mean unstead of dancing around. That way, we all understand each other.

Good to see you have arrived to this thread.

Let's all make an effort to stay on topic...and avoid the bickering that leads to violations of TOS.

I'm curious to hear how you feel about the topic we are discussing: "The Black Man, Is Crazy".

Sure. As soon as you answer my questions.

Edit:
I mean, I'm sure you want to clarify yourself to to others who don't understand what you mean, don't you?


[edit on 1-7-2007 by jsobecky]

Do you have a question about my opinion on the original thread? Or do you have an opinion of your own?

I sense an attempt to create a problem, or exacerbate a problem, so I will not participate in an inquisition of an off topic statement. That would take us further away from topic!

No Cigar!

Let's stay on topic, that's best. I look forward to reading your opinion.

You made a very odd statement to Benevolent Heretic about accepting her "role" in this thread. You then listed 3 categories of participants, and stated that you know which one you belonged to.

Now, when I ask what you meant by all that, you don't want to explain yourself. I'm at a loss to understand why you don't. It's not polite to drop a bomb on a person and then just walk away.

You see, if you're going to categorize and pigeon-hole Benevolent Heretic, then you will do the same to any of us. So my curiosity is well-founded.

This is not about bickering. It is about a slight side-track to the original topic, but whose fault is that, CSIfan?

Originally posted by jsobecky
I'm at a loss to understand why you don't. It's not polite to drop a bomb on a person and then just walk away.

Kind of like an attempted hit-and-run. Or a drive-by. But fortunately, I wasn't hit or hurt or affected in any way. Thinking that I have a specific "role" in this thread (other than participant) does not reflect on me. It reflects on the people who would think such a thing.

Of course, you're free to pursue this jso, but I'm going to go back to the original topic and ignore any further drive-by insults. It's all too reminiscent of my not-so-distant past with another member. And I'm NOT going there again.
.......

Noticing Color

The following is an excerpt from a comment in response to an article regarding the recent Supreme Court decision that schools in Kentucky and Washington couldn't use race as a tiebreaker. I think the comment is insightful and speaks to the subject of the separatist thinking of identifying with a color (whether it be black, yellow or green).

Parents Teaching Color-ism

One of my boys remarked to me once "Mom, did you ever notice how many times grownups ask what colour your friend is?" ... -- it was not the kids who were choosing their friends and playmates and work associates by colour. It was their parents, aunts, uncles and in some cases their Sunday School teachers.

One funny anecdote from my Bible College days [1969]: we had a gang of friends who met every day at 4:00 ... Came graduation day for the oldest members of the group, and as we met one another's parents, one shocked member of the group exclaimed, "Did you meet Barbara's parents? They're Black!"

The rest of the group burst out laughing and informed this now embarrassed friend, "So is Barbara!" ... But until this member of our group met her parents, the idea of her ethnicity had never disturbed the surface of his mind. She was Barbara. That was it.

This person goes on to say that basically, younger kids are not noticing "color" as much as their parents and other adults in their lives. And she makes the following analogy:

In fact it has become a habit like looking up when you hear an airplane go over. Kids outside New York City don't do that either. Adults do.

I think this is a very positive sign. And it also has its negative side. On the good side, kids don't care what color other people are. They see people. They see friends. On the down side, kids are taught to see color and to think in separatist terms. Not only that, they are encouraged to have friends that are the same color as them...

The original poster may not have intended to include "colorism" in his subject, but as I read about this, I find that "colorism" (the tendency, by people of color, to show a preference to lighter colored skin) is just another facet of the same topic. It's a form of discrimination practiced within a race.

It's dangerous, it's as stupid as racism and it's damaging to the children of any color. (I figure the adults can correct their attitudes if they want to, but I don't think it's fair to lay this twisted perception on the children.)

How Colorism Colors our Daily Lives

As young women of color, we might not have ever heard the word “colorism” before, but I would bet a million dollars that all of us have, at some point in our lives, observed or even experienced it. For example, we practice colorism when we refer to straight, long hair as “good”, and kinky hair as “nappy.” We refer to it when we call people “red bone” or “tar baby”. We reinforce it when we talk about “putting milk in your coffee”; that is, when an individual with a dark skin tone seeks a lighter skinned partner in the hopes that the children will also have a light complexion.
...
This practice of colorism has affected our mentality so much-to the point where in our societies, young girls cannot wait till they’re old enough to relax their hair chemically (to make it straighter). To the point where some individuals have “light skin” as part of their criteria for choosing a mate. To the point where skin bleaching creams have become a standard item in the cosmetic bags of many women.

Colorism. If you’ve never thought about it before as a problem, now is a good time to analyze how hurtful it can be to young women of color. It creates serious divisions among us, and can create a negative self-perception for those who aren’t born with the “right” skin tone and features. We all need to recognize colorism for what it is- a superficial, divisive, and destructive mindset. And if we can break that mentality within ourselves and refuse to reinforce it in our societies, then we can break the cycle of passing this practice on to future generations…and maybe one day soon colorism itself will be a legacy of the past.

If colorism within a race creates pain and division, imagine what it's doing across the races! Thinking of people in terms of color and using color as a self-identity could very well be causing pain and separation between people of all races.

You know what's funny? I went over to Nigeria Online to register, because I love Nollywood (Nigerian) movies. They're better than American Soaps, teehee, I'm a total addict. Nigerian friends of mine introduced me to this, and we often joke about me moving to Nigeria and becoming a famous actress. Once you watch one of these you'll see why. But I love them.

Anyhow, my laugh came when I registered, and on the page that asks you a few questions about yourself, they also ask which race you belong to. For "black" people they have two options, lol. African, or, (literally) "African-American "Blacks"" .

I thought of this thread, and I had to laugh. I know this will completely go over some people's heads, so I won't even waste my time, explaining what I thought funny. But for those of you that have ears to listen, listen, and those of you that have eyes to see, see.

All I can see about bashing here, is that the gang has arrived to bash and get personal on all that don't agree, have different viewpoints and perspectives. I never felt personally attacked or spoken to with SatansQue posts. I wonder why.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Of course, you're free to pursue this jso, but I'm going to go back to the original topic and ignore any further drive-by insults. It's all too reminiscent of my not-so-distant past with another member. And I'm NOT going there again.

Of course you're right again, BH. It's best to ignore drive-bys.

Back to the topic at hand!

Originally posted by Soraia
Anyhow, my laugh came when I registered, and on the page that asks you a few questions about yourself, they also ask which race you belong to. For "black" people they have two options, lol. African, or, (literally) "African-American "Blacks"" .

I thought of this thread, and I had to laugh. I know this will completely go over some people's heads, so I won't even waste my time, explaining what I thought funny. But for those of you that have ears to listen, listen, and those of you that have eyes to see, see.

Whooo, look into my eyes...and see that I'm smiling...

I'll check out their website! It's nice to know My Nigerian Brothers gave African American Blacks our own category. It's a great honor!

I was speaking to an African cab driver recently about the problems Africa is having, especially politically, and he told me that in his opinion the only people who can help Africans is African American Blacks.

After being torn apart centuries ago, it's refreshing that interacting with many Africans, I have found that they greatly admire their Black counterparts in America, and especially respect our fighting for civil rights in the 60's (which motivated many African countries and Caribbean countries shortly thereafter to fight for their own independence from their colonizers). Although Haiti rebelled against their colonizers violently, many Africans indicate their respect that our movement led by MLK was orderly and non-violent, and as a result of that movement we were able to make a multitude of accomplishments which the world, in general, have enjoyed in almost every field.

I recently offered some clothes to a young man going home to Africa, and he was so happy because he said that Africans love all the styles worn by Blacks in America, and they love the music too...(actually, African American Blacks have influenced fashion all over the world), and we are recognized and praised highly by our African Brothers worldwide for our many art forms which may be the last of things "made in America", like Rhythm & Blues, Jazz, Rap, The Spoken Word...and please let's not forget Gospel Music!

I mean, even Chinese and Italian kids are wearing Black fashions! And now there are many Black clothing manufacturers and designers for that market.

I guess they don't have a problem with the word Black.

I seriously don't think that Black is negative, throughout the world, unless one is racist or has been fed some horrible propaganda.

When Blacks travel to other countries, even countries who dislike Americans, they don't blame Blacks because they know we don't make the decisions that affect their countries; they treat us like Kings, and unless bigoted, they don't believe the propaganda. Good examples of African American Blacks "abroad" are Josephine Baker, Eartha Kitt and James Baldwin. They were loved; Josephine Baker even has a National Holiday in France!

Thank you Sory, for bringing this up! I am so glad I didn't leave this thread!

Originally posted by Soraia
You know what's funny? I went over to Nigeria Online to register, because I love Nollywood (Nigerian) movies. They're better than American Soaps, teehee, I'm a total addict. Nigerian friends of mine introduced me to this, and we often joke about me moving to Nigeria and becoming a famous actress. Once you watch one of these you'll see why. But I love them.

What are some of the titles of the best Nigerian movies? (the ones you really liked?) I'd love to see some of them, and I can check out the website too! Are any of them in English?

It's really not fair that Africans enjoy our American Black culture so much, and I have not even seen one African movie! Shame on me. That's another place for us to renew our commonality!

Thanks for opening another door in my search for my roots!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Let's look at some quotes from the original post:

Yes, but let me pull up some quotes of my own.

Originally posted by SatansQue
The violence surrounding the past weeks Juneteenth festivities, I believe, speaks volumes about the state of the "Black" man's sanity.
...
let's keep it on an intellectual level.
...
the ugly came out, as it often does when "Black" youths gather in groups.
...
Funny thing about "Black" people, man they sure do hate each other.

The OP, imo, was full of contempt. The important issue to him was that I, personally, am insane, violent, anti-intellectual, and hateful. That's what he called me.

Call yourself black. But I don't know that everyone can...This is my point in this thread.

Well, thank you BH, for allowing me, and blacks all over the world, the right to self-determination!
[/sarcasm]

That's how ridiculous this all sounds to me. Really. Why does it even matter to you what I call myself? Do I tell you how to refer to yourself?

The word "black" is associated with many negative things. I think that's all the OP is saying.

In my mind, the word "white" is associated with many negative things. "White" people didn't even exist until Eurpoeans came to the New World and needed to draw a contrast between themselves and the "red" and "black" peoples in order to dehumanize, steal from, and enslave them.

So, do we all need to get our (semantic) acts together and re-think what we call ourselves? Possibly, but to rake the entire "black" community over the coals because of an act of violence is to embrace ignorance, which, as you well know, is not what we do here.

So to have that questioned kind of raises my hackles.

It wasn't directed to you, and you actually elided the clause that specified to whom I was speaking.

ME
if you're opining on how disgusted you are with the black community, and you identify with it yourself, the first question in my mind is: What are you doing to help?

Yeah, I was addressing those who were bashing, not those agreeing.

This is not bashing, BH. This is disagreeing. If this we're the UFO forum, I'd be called a debunker, and I am, because I need actual proof. His feelings are not enough to convince me.

Well, he is "black" and some who agree with him are "black"

But, no, BH, he isn't "black," he's "colored". Silly and semantic, I know, but that's my point. He doesn't call himself "black," so he's not really in the position to say how those who do call themselves "black" think or feel. He wouldn't know, because he's "colored." He has separated himself from us and made us the enemy. I would have preferred that he present his hypothesis as just that, a hypothesis. He didn't. It was a foregone conclusion.

No one is targeting you. No one is insisting that you think this way.

The OP is. He specified "black youth." I am young and black. So, yes, he most certainly is targeting me. If you ask me, that's the real hit-and-run in this thread, because once lots of people started disagreeing with him, he stopped posting.

I notice he never responded to my accusations of ageism, which I think is the real driving force behind his OP.

But I have a strong suspicion that a lot of "black" people do. Even if it's so deep in their subconscious that they're not consciously aware of it.

"A strong suspicion"? "Their subconscious"? It sounds like you have absolutely nothing to back this up with, whatsoever, if you have to rely on your feelings and what you think we're thinking.

How would you feel if a black person told you what (they thought!) was going on in white people's subconscious minds like it was a fact? Wait- I don't even have to ask because I remember your reaction. You disagreed vociferously, much like I'm doing here.

Personal experience is once again being shunned and diminished in favor of some kind of "scholarly PROOF" that the OP's thoughts are valid.

It's funny you would say that since the OP specifically asked that we "keep it on an intellectual level". Scholarly proof would fall into that category, wouldn't it?

Also, BH, you've been here longer than I, maybe you can explain this to me. When did Social Issues become the single forum where personal experience is enough to conclusively prove a point? When did ATS decide to eschew critical thought and empirical evidence, in favor of "feelings"? It had to have happened before I got here.

Hi HH. I'm not going to waste my time and yours hashing through all the questions above that we've already dealt with before. I'm pretty sure you know my responses anyway.

But I wanted to take a stab at this one. Of course I can only give you my opinion and what I feel on the subject. I'm not an ATS scholar or even on the staff. But I think it's important to remember that Social Issues is PTS, not ATS. It's a different animal.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Also, BH, you've been here longer than I, maybe you can explain this to me. When did Social Issues become the single forum where personal experience is enough to conclusively prove a point?

If I remember correctly, when I arrived on the scene, Social Issues and most of PTS was on its death bed. Majic brought it back to life. You'll have to talk to him about how he did it. It happened before my eyes, like "magic".

It's not the single forum where personal experience is shared! My God! Most of PTS and BTS, in fact are filled with personal opinions, personal experience, political opinion and personal points of view. Do you really expect people NOT to share their personal experience and personal opinions on social issues such as abortion, gay marriage, gun control, global warming, death with dignity, immigration, civil rights, the death penalty and race relations???

Are you serious?

And personal experience is just what it says. Personal experience cannot prove a point beyond saying that "it happened to me" or "this is what I think". Beyond that, if the reader takes someone's experience as proving a point, that's their mistake. Personal experience is just that. One person's perception.

When did ATS decide to eschew critical thought and empirical evidence, in favor of "feelings"?

Can't it be both? There's lots of room for empirical evidence, critical thought and documentation. I have presented it in Social Issues and so have others. It doesn't have to be either/or. But we are the people. And our experience also matters. This isn't a science lab, it's a discussion forum. There's room for personal opinion and experience as well as critical thought and empirical evidence.

I don't know why you think they're exclusive.

And you have plenty of "feelings" and personal opinions of your own to share, it seems.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
The OP, imo, was full of contempt.
...
That's how ridiculous this all sounds to me.
...
In my mind, the word "white" is associated with many negative things.
...
He has separated himself from us and made us the enemy.

These are your "feelings". It doesn't prove the OP was full of contempt (I didn't feel that) or that he made you "the enemy"... That is your perception. Your personal opinion. And my God! Where is the battle? Why is this a fight? I must be missing something. Can't two people have a difference of opinion without becoming THE ENEMY?

I dunno what hapened to my above link, and why it messed up, but it is here:
Nigeria Online Ok, I just checked it in preview, before I posted. For some reason in the url, Nigeria is replaced by "n-word'(???).

The url is : video.onlinenigeria.com...

again, the Nigeria in the above url is replaced by 'n-word'. It is Nigeria with a lowercase n, no quotation marks, all one word.

Some videos you can watch without registration. There are usually 4 parts to one movie. I liked "Miss Maradona", it deals with AIDS. I also like sappy romances, if you can find "Tears of Sacrifice", I can really recommend it. Another real recommend is "Widow", it is based on a true story, and brings to the screen the plight many widows face....the culture apparently dictates that in case of death of the husband, the husbands family is to take care of his wife and children. This is often abused to the extreme. This woman was lucky she had relatives living in England, in order to get out alive.


As to Africans saying that only Black Americans could save them...uhm, most of my posts say that, as my own opinion. I was in fact criticised for it. I find it also funny, that here, it only seems to matter what "other" people say. But, seriously, if you don't have enough common sense to look and see for yourself, and be honest about it, then there is no hope anyhow.

As well, all this willful ignorance, with quotes of what I and others say, blatantly taken out of context...childish. I refuse to do that. I never pretend not to understand what someone is trying to say...I really try to listen, which is also why I always said, I like truthseeka's posts, although rude, and always tried to remain respectful towards him, because I understood him. Doesn't mean I agree with him.

As to the rest of your post, CSI, I think it may be a little ego-driven, and maybe you've never delved deeper than what you need to make yourself feel good, which is fine. It's all a journey, and who's to say which way is the right and the only way? But I do think all travellers have certains stops, (or come to certain conclusions) which all come to sooner or later.
I just try not to forget, that compliments and criticism usually go hand-in-hand...lol.

Just think about the compliments you've handed out...I guess you've never heard the serious Africans thoughts on morals (or lack thereof) in the U.S., on the women, on the focus and drive of the brothers, etc...everyone likes glitz. To a point. When that is all you have to offer, ("look at me, look at me")like a beautiful woman, sooner or later you have a problem. I think that, most times, the exact same who love you to death one day are exactly those who will backstab you and stomp on you and blame you the next to get what they want, without a thought to your former "glory". History is full of moments like that. I try to never stop developing, just because someone admired me - for the moment, at a stop in their own lives.





[edit on 3-7-2007 by Soraia]

Originally posted by Soraia
I dunno what hapened to my above link, and why it messed up, but it is here:
Nigeria Online Ok, I just checked it in preview, before I posted. For some reason in the url, Nigeria is replaced by "n-word'(???).

The url is : video.onlinenigeria.com...

again, the Nigeria in the above url is replaced by 'n-word'. It is Nigeria with a lowercase n, no quotation marks, all one word.

Soraia

I still can't access your link, using either way. I wonder if it has something to do with the automatic censors?

If nobody else can access it, maybe a mod would take a look at the link? Who moderates this forum? Fess up!

Edit: typo

[edit on 3-7-2007 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And my God! Where is the battle? Why is this a fight? I must be missing something. Can't two people have a difference of opinion without becoming THE ENEMY?

I quote your text here BH, but I do not point the finger at you. I speak generally here.

This comment right here is the crux of the issue for me. Both sides are too damn stubborn, at times, to notice that they are guilty of the exact same things that they fault the opposition for. It's absurd that we even use the term "opposition" in this context, but I believe that is what we have come to. There are certain white people in our society, just as there are black people, who can not comprehend that, what they fault the opposite skin color for, they practice on a regular basis.

Hypocritical doesn't even begin to cover it.

I've been fairly silent on these issues in the last few weeks and months, but I have been reading. And what I read, well, forgive me here but it's a damn joke.

We have certain members here that are absolutely brilliant. Really a step ahead of anyone else. And they find themselves in pissing matches over trivial issues. Sometimes we get in our own way when we are trying to find a resolution. Sometimes ATS can be a bigger hurdle than any to overcome. I am certain that if some of "us" were to sit down for a meal some evening, and discuss some of what we discuss here, we would come to a resolution and find satisfaction.

Then there are others that flock to a thread with a title like this one. They crave it, and rejoice when one rears it's ugly head. So be it. They have just as much right as anyone else. But "we" are forced to work a tad bit harder with those.

"We" in this sense is just that. WE. Not white, not black, not colored, We! As in everyone. Whether "we" like it or not, "we" are on the same side.

This rant isn't going anywhere, but I wish a few of our members would understand that sometimes we are our own worst enemy, and this means of communication might be our biggest hurdle. Do not fault one another for the issues at hand here. Do not hold grudges. I truly believe that if we were to sit down one evening, a positive and beneficial discussion would prevail, and we would walk away from the table that evening with a sense of "we".