Will you go to hell if you are gay?

Originally posted by intrepid
Personally I believe in my judgement & that includes a god.

Nobody is challenging your faith. We're just trying to shed some lights on God's mysterious ways

Jazz, you do have a right to your opinion, but I am just letting you know that if God was the devil, then who is Hell's devil? See? And who is Jesus? See what I am saying, you can't tell me that Jesus was not real because there are ancestors that saw the miracles that he proclaimed about how he revived a man the was dead for four days and then arouse him from his death.

Originally posted by agentlopez
God is not the devil, but I did read that christians are Sodom and Ghomorrah, but are catholics? It says that homosexuality is pursued by death, but masturbation and other things towards this subject is not ilegal in the bible of any religion. hahahahah

Can someone please answer my question that I quoted above?

Has anybody that is here read the Bible?

agentlopez

Do you seriously think any living being here can anwser that question?

And do you think all the speculations you'll get from the people here can help you form an awnser for your self (or your friend in that case)?

I don't think gay people will go to hell because of what they are, but again, I don't believe in heaven or hell...

Originally posted by intrepid
Has anybody that is here read the Bible?

No, I have not read the bible, but I have read most of the important stuff like the commandments and the holy temple, water (Holy water), Adam and Eve, and some other stuff.

Originally posted by m0rbid
agentlopez

Do you seriously think any living being here can anwser that question?

And do you think all the speculations you'll get from the people here can help you form an awnser for your self (or your friend in that case)?

I don't think gay people will go to hell because of what they are, but again, I don't believe in heaven or hell...

Yeah, maybe you don't believe in heaven or hell, but others have religions so you giving your opinion like that can't be any valid to me because you don't have any speculation of what is going on here.

Look, unless you have heard directly from God that if your are gay you will suffer eternal damnation, I wouldn't buy it. The Bible and the TRUE Word of God has been changed by evil people throughout history. I am a deeply religious person, but even though a Holy Book might say, it has been altered by humans, and I don't buy that if you are gay, you will go to hell.


-wD

Hasn't there only been a thread about this FIFTY FREAKING MILLION times?

lol, people must feel the need to point their fingers and judge those who they consider not worthy, beneath them and immoral.

But honestly, who the hell are you to judge?

What because it says something in a book which has been ADDED to and TAKEN away from by MAN, you willingly gobble it up as 100% truth.

And don't give me that soddom and gamora #, THEY denied God, thats the true reason for that story.

You can't change someone, you only will have to answer for yourself.

So let the first person without sin cast the first stone.


Great way to divide and conquer, cause infighting so they are all too busy policing eachother to know what really goes on.

edit: for language, pardon me.
[Edited on 7-1-2004 by Lysergic]

[Edited on 7-1-2004 by Lysergic]

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Look, unless you have heard directly from God that if your are gay you will suffer eternal damnation, I wouldn't buy it. The Bible and the TRUE Word of God has been changed by evil people throughout history. I am a deeply religious person, but even though a Holy Book might say, it has been altered by humans, and I don't buy that if you are gay, you will go to hell.


-wD

YES... the Bible before written down was passed down through generation for almost 50 years ORALLY. The people who told the story may had had altered with it. We do not know for sure that Jesus' followers wrote them

[Edited on 7-1-2004 by Jazz]

I think that the vastnest of the Bible turns a lot of people off. AND I am not ascribing to its teachings. But there are works as long that a person could read ie: The Lord of the Rings trilogy. If we can read about Hobbits, rings, etc., why can't we spend the time on Jonah, Samson,David *Noah. Great reading. It just happens to be that the Bible(or the kuran(islam) or the(gita) Hindu) deal with things that SEEM to deal with the past, but these books are the basis for the faith around the world. (With the exeption of the the faith of money).

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by namehere]

Originally posted by Lysergic
Hasn't there only been a thread about this FIFTY FREAKING MILLION times?

No sixty million... I'm tired of this topic already.
While other, more conspiracy related topic hardly reach two pages.

I just have a question would it be a sin if theoretically you're so hungry and you don't have any money on you. Nobody would give you food. You are so hungry you are about to die, the you stole some food from the grocery store to keep you survive.

Is it a sin that you stole?

Don't laugh at this you guys, this is a true story

I, personally, have rejected ignorance.

Jazz, are you living in the 21 century?

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by namehere]

The commandments state that stealing is against God. But if you have a reason, there is no problem (I guess.) But if you are really that poor, not judging you, you should not be on the computer or something. There are ways for you to get food.

Everyone here probably already knows where I stand on this issue but I will chime in anyways.

The bible was written by men and not by God himself so the writings are left up to interpertation by everyone here. The bible was written by over 40 different authors over a span of 400 years and the original wording has been changed many times so what it all means is debatable. However, what is not debatable is that humans like every other animal on this planet is designed to be heterosexual not homosexual. Nature or God, whichever you prefer, designed us with the ability to procreate to survive and homosexuality is nothing more than a trait that can kill a species.

You say that you just love someone and that love is ok. Fine I will agree with that but you can love someone without sleeping with them. You say its genetic and its passed down then why do twins who have identical DNA have two different sexual tendancies, if you have 100% of the same genes then you both should be gay 100% of the time.

Bailey and Pillard studied pairs of brothers -- identical twins, non-identical twins, other biological brothers, and adoptive brothers -- where at least one was gay. At first glance, their findings looked like a pattern for homosexuality being genetically influenced. Identical twins were both homosexual 52% of the time; non-identical twins, 22%; other biological brothers, 9.2%; and adoptive brothers, 10.5%. A closer look reveals significant problems with a "born gay" conclusion to this study:

"In order for such a study to be meaningful, you'd have to look at twins raised apart," says Anne Fausto Sterling, a biologist. The brothers in this study were raised together in their families.
All the results were different from what one would expect if homosexuality was directly genetic:
Because identical twin brothers share 100% of their genes overall, we would expect that if one was homosexual, the other would also be homosexual, 100% of the time. Instead, this study found that they were both homosexual only 52% of the time.
Although completely unrelated genetically, adoptive brothers were more likely to both be gay than the biological brothers, who share half their genes! This piece of data prompted the journal Science to respond: "this . . . suggests that there is no genetic component, but rather an environmental component shared in families" (Vol. 262 Dec.24, 1993).
If homosexuality were genetic, one would expect each number in the column "Results from the B & P study" to be identical to the corresponding number in the "Expectation if genetic" column. Each one is significantly different!
Both are Homosexual:
Shared genes
(overall) Expectation
if genetic Results from
B&P study
Identical twin brothers 100 % 100 % 52 %
Non-ident. twin brothers 50 % 50 % 22 %
Other biological brothers 50 % 50 % 9 %
Adoptive brothers 0 % 1-4 % 11 %

Finally, Bailey & Pillard did not use a random sample. The men in the study were recruited through advertisements in gay newspapers and magazines.

The bible mentions gay's several times in the bible but like I said above it can be taken many different ways.

An illustration of the division can be seen by what either side might say about the friendship in the Old Testament between David and Jonathan. One verse reads: "I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; dear and delightful you were to me; your love for me was wonderful, surpassing the love of women."

PRO-GAY
A pro-gay position might be that this is a clear indication that King David had a gay relationship, and to pretend otherwise is naive.

ANTI-GAY
An anti-gay opinion might be that the friendship between the two men was exactly that - a very close and loyal allegiance.


Similarly, the tale of Sodom is often debated. In it, Lot has two angels staying in his house. The men of Sodom surrounded the house. "They called to Lot and asked him where the men were who had entered his house that night. 'Bring them out,' they shouted, 'so that we might have intercourse with them.'"

To protect his visitors from an act which Lot describes as "wicked", he offers the crowd his two virgin daughters instead. The crowd are not satisfied and break the door down - the angels then make the intruders blind and Sodom is eventually destroyed by "fire and brimstone".

ANTI-GAY
An anti-gay argument might say this story demonstrates the immorality of homosexuality, as has been accepted for generations, hence the term sodomy. Elsewhere in Genesis, God says of the men: "Their sin is very grave." It's an example of behaviour degenerating.

PRO-GAY
Of course the men's behaviour was wicked, but it was wicked because it's a tale of sexual assault and rape. When Jesus mentions Sodom, hundreds of years later, it appears to be in a context of a discussion of hospitality, rather than one of sexual morality.


There are several verses in the Bible which are similarly contested - there are however a much smaller number of seemingly clear statements. The most famous of them is probably from Leviticus: "You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; that is an abomination."

ANTI-GAY
An anti-gay position would be that this line is unambiguous. It is also repeated elsewhere in the book. The speaker of the words is God, so this is an explicit indication that homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. It was one of the sins that justified God in giving the land of Canaan to the Israelites

PRO-GAY
A pro-gay argument might say that other verses in the same book forbid a wide range of sexual activities, including having sex with a woman who is having her period. This is an indication that the passage embodies specific cultural values rather than God's law.


There is some debate about how relevant rules in the Old Testament are to Christians. Some would say they are binding, since Jesus said he did not come to abolish the old laws. Others would say that Jesus set Christians free from the old laws, highlighting instead that people should love God and their neighbour.

Jesus himself says nothing explicitly about homosexuality. There are though two statements by him which have been interpreted as having a bearing on the subject.

"[A] man shall leave his father and mother, and be made one with his wife; and the two shall become one flesh."

ANTI-GAY
This indicates Jesus saw heterosexual relations as the proper way of behaving.

PRO-GAY
Jesus is actually talking about the sanctity of heterosexual marriage


Later in the same conversation, after Jesus has spoken about divorce, the disciples say to him it is better not to marry at all. Jesus says: "That is something which not everyone can accept, but only those for whom God has appointed it. For while some are incapable of marriage because they were born so, or made so by men, there are others who have themselves renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of Heaven. Let those accept it who can."

PRO-GAY
This shows that Jesus is more concerned with people looking after their own relationship with God, than with enforcement of rules. The reference to being "born so" indicates that heterosexual marriage is fine for those who are heterosexual, but it's OK to be different. Again and again Jesus reaches out to those on the margins of society, like prostitutes and tax collectors, to include them.

ANTI-GAY
Jesus here is actually talking about people who were born incapable of having children, or people who were castrated - not about gays. He is actually saying that marriage and chastity are both within God's purpose. Jesus does appeal to the sinners, but once he has called them, he tells them to go and sin no more.


The letters of St Paul provide the other traditional support for the position that homosexuality is sinful. He writes: "God has given [people who worship false gods] up to shameful passions. Their women have exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and their men in turn, giving up natural relations with women burn with lust for one another; males behave indecently with males and paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversion."

Paul later writes: "Make no mistake: no fornicator or idolator, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion, no thieves or grabbers of drunkards of slanderers or swindlers, will possess the kingdom of God."

PRO-GAY
A pro-gay position might be that the word Paul uses for homosexual here could alternatively be translated as "male prostitute". In any case, Paul's writings are clearly of his time, and there are plenty of other verses which people have no difficulty in ignoring - for instance: "a woman brings shame on her head if she prays or prophesies bare-headed; it is as bad as if her head were shaved." This should be viewed like that.

ANTI-GAY
Anti-gay argument might say this line is crystal clear in establishing that Christianity and homosexuality are incompatible. Paul is actually quite clearly referring to homosexual behaviour, and includes lesbianism. You can't just pretend that St Paul, who did so much to influence our understanding of Jesus, didn't know what he was talking about. He's clear that homosexuality is an offence against God and against people's own bodies.

Like I said it can be taken both ways. Will Gays go to hell? I don't know because I am just a man.

What I can say is that God gave everyone the right to choose their own course in life. The choices that we make may not be easy but they are necessary and the rewards for making the right choices are great.
To say that you are born with something that you can either choose to change or abstain from is just bull.

Can a Gay not be Gay? Yes, because being Gay is a behaveour not a condition. Anyone in the world can choose to have sex with the same gender and anyone in the world can choose not to.

If you want to know anymore about how I stand on the issue you can look here I think its pretty much all covered.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Agentlopez

My opinion is just as valid as anyone else's, as it is nothing more than that, an opinion. And because I don't believe in heaven or hell, doesn't mean that "I don't have a religion" LOL!!!

Why don't you start your #ty topic in the religion section of BTS, cuz I ain't seeing anything 'conspiracy related' in here!

Either that, or pray to "God" that your gay friend doesn't rot in "Hell".

Note: I use "quotes" to underline words or concept I don't really believe in..