Ireland, Civil War at home, Revolution Abound

Originally posted by tonyc
blissfullignorance.

i must say i found this post very offensive.
After years off armed conflict, we are now in the situtation where all sides have reached aggreement.

This is not the time, for someone who has an obvious complete lack of Knowledge on the history of this conflict. I suggest you spend your time concentrating on the abuse of civil liberties, in your own country.

To help deny ignorance; currently, former enemies are now working together. This was unthinkable 15 years ago. the vast majority of the population of The British Isles( yes that includes the whole of Ireland) want this aggreement to suceed, all sides have had great difficutly getting to a peaceful solution.

As for revolution in America, well thats up to Americans.

btw we have one thing in common, I also was born "outside of County Cork".

i apologize very much. i now realize that, while i do think i understand the issue, i didnt have all the facts at the time. it was never my attempt to insult your offend you or anyone for that matter. simply trying to get a good debate going.


ps. good to see another eire brother here

Originally posted by PlayeR87
not you

the fella with the user name "are we alone"

Ahhh...I see.. Doh!

Sorry, I thought you were mentioning the fact it was just us two posting in the last 15 mins....

hehehe... it's late....

Ireland never took the offensive as a nation, as you said the scots hired us as mercs, and the vikings invaded us aswell as you, only they decided to set up base here

[edit on 15-6-2007 by PlayeR87]

Originally posted by stumason

The British Army only went into NI in the 60/70's because of attacks by Loyalists on Catholics.

Thats right...

We went there to protect the catholics.

And in true Irish style, they then turned on the Army and their protectors, so we ended up fighting both sides in that horrible mess.

Just for a bit of perspective, I was in NI in the early 80's.

well said
for anybody to think that the RIRA will help matters now that everything has calmed down needs to go back too the planet they were sucked off from.
as far as i know the RIRA never had disbanded (could be wrong)
i have lived here for a long time and seen the distruction that all of the terrorists have done. i have lost friends because of it, i have been caught up in their stupid bombs and dirty tricks that they have all played.
they are no better than "osama bin lid" (yes i have spelt it correctly) and al qaeda.
now that we have most people talking together and trying to kill the problem dead there will always be the die-hards who just cannot accept it and will play dirty little games to try and keep the troubles going.
i want my daughter and me too be able to walk in our town without the fear of being blew to pieces
your concept of "the good fight" insults humanity

you were right on one thing though, this does not belong ANYWHERE
revolution LMAO you are a dying breed of people
have a nice day blissfullignorance

i hope your children do not grow up believing this garbage

Originally posted by PlayeR87
Ireland never took the offensive as a nation, as you said the scots hired us as mercs, and the vikings invaded us aswell as you, only they decided to set up base here

[edit on 15-6-2007 by PlayeR87]

No, not as a nation as the nation of Ireland didn't really exist.

I was surprised as the extent of the Viking colonisation though. Makes you wonder if those claiming to be "Irish", really are....

The mind boggles...

Doing a bit of reading on Eniskillen at the moment, seeing as my ancestors where from there. It's rather interesting, seeing as the original English lord came from Devon, another place my family is from and it is known that we do have blue blood in the family...

I wonder..... hmmmm....

Stumason

Non-native? They're all Gaelic!

Celtic, and no they are not. Few are actually, the Celtic culture survived but even that is not as strong in NI then else where..

The are British, directly, British Loyalist.

What makes you think this?

Ever hear of massive wars or civil uprisings during prosperity?

they're Scottish descendants so, ethnically, they are the same grouping.

Ethnically most Scots are Saxxon, as with Ireland, and Whales and even Manx. The English domination and numerous other civilizations destroyed the Celtic people, but not the culture, the culture these people hail from is English, hence their loyalty.

They don't share it with the English in the slightest.

It annoys me when people comment on a situation they don't understand.

Indeed.

Ireland is Irish, why on Earth would the Irish want to be British? They didnt, that is why only the areas where England dumped peasants remains British.

If the IRA or indeed, Eire itself attacked the North, then they would be going back 100 years and would most likely lose everything they gained.

Exactly.

To qualify, I am actually descended myself from irish fisherman who moved to Cornwall from Eniskillen in the 1700's. So I am as Gaelic as they come in that respect. yet I don't support a move to unite NI with Eire. In fact, if I had my way, Eire wouldn't even exist.....

Celtic. And no, your not, unless your last name is Gaelic. Everyone has a little Celtic blood, most of northern Europe was at one time Celtic, including France, but they where mixed in ethnically with many peoples... most people in Scotland, England, Ireland are Saxxon mutts.

just like to say.. wow.
im surprised my thread got this much attention...
i thought if it got any at all, it would be able the american revolution bit.
happy i could get a bit of a debate going.. haha

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Stumason

Non-native? They're all Gaelic!

Celtic, and no they are not. Few are actually, the Celtic culture survived but even that is not as strong in NI then else where..

See, now I know your talking utter rubbish. Celtic people's are Gaelic. They still reside and maintain their own languages in Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Cornwall.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
The are British, directly, British Loyalist.

British is a nationality, not an ethnicity.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Ever hear of massive wars or civil uprisings during prosperity?

Yes.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Ethnically most Scots are Saxxon, as with Ireland, and Whales and even Manx. The English domination and numerous other civilizations destroyed the Celtic people, but not the culture, the culture these people hail from is English, hence their loyalty.

Not true. With the Roman and subsequent Anglo-Saxon invasions, the bulk of the actual population was the same as it always had been with the ruling elite replaced, rather than the commoners. What has happened is a general mixing happening over the course of history into what we have nowadays.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Indeed.

Ireland is Irish, why on Earth would the Irish want to be British? They didnt, that is why only the areas where England dumped peasants remains British.

They were Scottish, not English.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Celtic. And no, your not, unless your last name is Gaelic. Everyone has a little Celtic blood, most of northern Europe was at one time Celtic, including France, but they where mixed in ethnically with many peoples... most people in Scotland, England, Ireland are Saxxon mutts.

Oh, I see. So your now presuming to tell me what my ancestry is? Whatever. My family have done an extensive genealogical study into our history, so we know where we come from, thankyou very much.

How arrogant is that statement? You just presume to know me and my family, whilst simultaneously presuming to tell me about my own countries history.

Also, as I explained above, the majority of the population remained essentially unchanged, despite the Roman and Anglo-Saxon "invasions". Rather than them replacing the indigenous populations, they actually were assimilated into them and remained the ruling elite. The same can be said for the Vikings.

And Celtic is Gaelic. Gaelic is a language grouping within the wider Celtic population.

See, now I know your talking utter rubbish. Celtic people's are Gaelic. They still reside and maintain their own languages in Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Cornwall.

Its Celtic culture...... its a Gaelic language...

Celtic refers to the actual peoples and culture, deriving from Greek, it means Barbarian.

British is a nationality, not an ethnicity.

there is no single ethnicity, it is as I said, a Saxxon Mutt.

Yes.

Please, name it.

Not true. With the Roman and subsequent Anglo-Saxon invasions, the bulk of the actual population was the same as it always had been with the ruling elite replaced, rather than the commoners. What has happened is a general mixing happening over the course of history into what we have nowadays.

The loosing side, the Celtic peoples, where hit in population among other things, the victors blood lines where more dominant.. over time and generations the blood is diluted and the actual "celtic" peoples where no longer.. Brits have alot of Celtic blood, but most Celts can trace the largest percentage of their blood to Normans.

They were Scottish, not English.

Scott's gave in and became apart of the UK, the British empire, and are thus British, their influences in everything from politics to religion are the cause of the problem....

Oh, I see. So your now presuming to tell me what my ancestry is? Whatever. My family have done an extensive genealogical study into our history, so we know where we come from, thankyou very much.

Right. The closest form of true Celts are in Manx, western Ireland and northern Scotland, away from cities and the like.. either way, it is far more likely there are NO celts left at all, but rather a dilluted mixed populace that does not have a name.

I don't see why that matters.. if you think your Celtic because of your blood your wrong.. Celtic is a culture and a culture only any more.

How arrogant is that statement? You just presume to know me and my family, whilst simultaneously presuming to tell me about my own countries history.

How ignorant is it to cast aside fact to say you are something because you think such and such was your ancestor?

My blood line is mostly English, but it would be ignorant of me to assume I do not have Roman, Norman, Saxon ect, ect within me...

Also, as I explained above, the majority of the population remained essentially unchanged, despite the Roman and Anglo-Saxon "invasions".

And as I explained, your dead wrong.

And Celtic is Gaelic. Gaelic is a language grouping within the wider Celtic population.

Gaelic is the language of the Celtic cultures.... many people who have actually claimed to be Celtic where not Celtic, and did not speak Gaelic, Celtic the word its self means in the style of the Celts. Gaelic is the language that groups all Gaelic speaking peoples, though it does NOT include all Celtic peoples....

For example, Celtic populations still exist in areas of north western France, but they do not speak Gaelic at all, thus cannot be Gaelic, but can be Celtic.

Following?

You can not be Gaelic. You can speak Gaelic, you cannot be Gaelic. It makes no sense.

Then you could go on to say that Celtic peoples never actually existed as a race divided from the rest.. but rather the exact same race that populated all of France, some of Spain, some of Germany and some of Italy... at one point "celtic" culture was extensive, but never called Celtic by any ancient civilization .. the word Celt is greek (Keltoi) but Greece never met the Celts...

The peoples of Britania, Scotland, and Ireland are most likely the same ethnicity anyways, just with more added in to the blood mix.. different areas may look different because of the clan and fiefdom systems, lack of transportation ect that lead to inbreeding populations.

If anything, the term Celtic its self was adopted by Britain after the formation of the United Kingdom, and refered to anyone outside of the UK as Celtic.. or Barbarians..

The Irish Revival of the 19th century however brought back Celtic culture under this name and thus the word is ingrained into our vocab.. the second great Celtic revival is currently happening actually, which is great because I love Celtic culture.

However, you can be Celtic and not speak Gaelic. Thus, you cannot be Gaelic.

You're all fools, and have not a jot of a notion of what you are talking about.

Just got off the phone from Ireland (relatives) and they thought the kind of thing you keep in embryo and then spawn on an unsuspecting individual is a bit of a sneaky move,


bless 'em

feckin eejits

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Its Celtic culture...... its a Gaelic language...

Celtic refers to the actual peoples and culture, deriving from Greek, it means Barbarian.

Well done. I actually said that in my post above.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
there is no single ethnicity, it is as I said, a Saxxon Mutt.

By your own argument, this is a fallacy. There are elements of Saxon's, yes, but also Angles, jutes, Romans, Norse/Norman, Celtic, Moringvian...etc etc....

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Please, name it.

An example of War or uprising during a period of Prosperity?

The world wars is a good start. Poll Tax riots in the UK during the late 1980's.

There's just two examples that spring to mind.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
The loosing side, the Celtic peoples, where hit in population among other things, the victors blood lines where more dominant.. over time and generations the blood is diluted and the actual "celtic" peoples where no longer.. Brits have alot of Celtic blood, but most Celts can trace the largest percentage of their blood to Normans.

Well done. You are very good at this repeating what I have already said, aren't you?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Scott's gave in and became apart of the UK, the British empire, and are thus British, their influences in everything from politics to religion are the cause of the problem....

Then use the correct adjective. You said England/English.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Right. The closest form of true Celts are in Manx, western Ireland and northern Scotland, away from cities and the like.. either way, it is far more likely there are NO celts left at all, but rather a dilluted mixed populace that does not have a name.

That very same argument could be used against any and all ethnic groups in one way or another. But rather than splitting hairs over genetics, which is a fairly recent tool, the predominant decider of what ethnic grouping you belong to is cultural/language.

Aside from that, the genetics of Cornwall and Ireland, along with parts of Wales and Scotland remained largely untouched by the invading groups, namely because the "elite" would not be breeding with the commoners. Yes, some cross-breeding occured and genetic markers for different racial groups can be found, but on a broader basis, the general populations remained largely intact.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I don't see why that matters.. if you think your Celtic because of your blood your wrong.. Celtic is a culture and a culture only any more.

Really? So despite recent genetic studies of the population of the British Isles that suggest large scale population replacement did NOT take place, your going to argue the toss anyway.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
How ignorant is it to cast aside fact to say you are something because you think such and such was your ancestor?

There is no "thinking" anyone was my ancestor, it is fact. My uncle has spent the better part of 10 years researching the family line. We resided in Cornwall right up until very recently. Before that, in the 1700's, our ancestors (and this is following the maternal line) came over from Ireland. The orignal famil name was in fact Enice-Borlace up until my Grandmother married my grandad when we became Masons. Enice-Borlace is two gaelic names joined together through marriage, the Enice coming from Eniskillen, in Ireland.

Continue to argue the toss if you like.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
My blood line is mostly English, but it would be ignorant of me to assume I do not have Roman, Norman, Saxon ect, ect within me...

Of course, but in a general conversation, your not likely to say that are you?

Oh, I forgot your a Yank.

You probably describe yourself as an Anglo-Norman-Saxon-Romano-Celtic-American....

Originally posted by Rockpuck
And as I explained, your dead wrong.

I think you'll find genetic studies back up my claim, rather than you just saying I am "dead wrong".

And Celtic is Gaelic. Gaelic is a language grouping within the wider Celtic population.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Gaelic is the language of the Celtic cultures.... many people who have actually claimed to be Celtic where not Celtic, and did not speak Gaelic, Celtic the word its self means in the style of the Celts. Gaelic is the language that groups all Gaelic speaking peoples, though it does NOT include all Celtic peoples....

For example, Celtic populations still exist in areas of north western France, but they do not speak Gaelic at all, thus cannot be Gaelic, but can be Celtic.

Following?

yes. All your doing is fleshing out what I have already said, namely, gaelic is a Language grouping within the Celtic culture. Please read my posts before presuming to "educate" me.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
You can not be Gaelic. You can speak Gaelic, you cannot be Gaelic. It makes no sense.

-snip-

However, you can be Celtic and not speak Gaelic.

Thus, you cannot be Gaelic.

Really.....

Gaelic as an adjective means "pertaining to the Gaels", including language and culture.

It's exactly the same as you describing your self as an American. Distinct from the wider Anglo-Saxon population. Same with Gaelic. Celtic in a wider sense, but distinctly Gaelic in it's own right.

Originally posted by PlayeR87
ok are we alone i am sorry but i am in no mood at the moment to have a debate with someone who has a personnal vendetta against religion

Well if you are not in the mood thats your problem. Am just giving my opinion an opinion i feel very strong about. I only said it once if people want to continue on about religion they can if they want at the end of the day it all comes down to Religion !!

[edit on 16-6-2007 by Are We Alone]

Originally posted by Knights

Originally posted by BlissfullIgnorance
Now, I must say though that the british invaded us. We did not ask for it.

When?

Try some research on the
" The Troubles"
"The Plantation of Ulster"

Here are 2 links that will help to get a general idea of the start of the problems in Ireland. We are looking back almost 400 years.

The troubles
The Plantation of Ulster

The IRA has been fighting, in my opinion, the good fight for hundreds of years.

Just like to point out that infinite is from Northern Ireland and family members of his have been killed by the IRA.

I find your comments highly offensive and disrespectful to those who have been killed by the IRA. My mother would be heartbroken by your comments. Her childhood was terrorised by the IRA, her school bus was shoot up by it. My poor mum has witness bombs go off and nearly even killed by them.

It's an insult to Ireland. Sorry, but it's true. Majority of us Irish never wanted the IRA to launch a terrorist campaign in our name. IRA never has cared for the Irish. Thats why it has killed many of us without thinking.

Everyone is bad as each other, but you blame the British for everything that has taken place. That pathetic and low.

Plus, I like to point out that I hold an Irish passport and declare myself as "Irish". So you cannot accuse me of being bias.

Sympathizing with terrorist is not how we do it at ATS.

Originally posted by infinite

The IRA has been fighting, in my opinion, the good fight for hundreds of years.

You call blowing up woman and children and killing thousands of innocent people A GOOD FIGHT. Thats SICK talk infinite.

Originally posted by infinite

The IRA has been fighting, in my opinion, the good fight for hundreds of years.

Just like to point out that infinite is from Northern Ireland and family members of his have been killed by the IRA.

I find your comments highly offensive and disrespectful to those who have been killed by the IRA. My mother would be heartbroken by your comments. Her childhood was terrorised by the IRA, her school bus was shoot up by it. My poor mum has witness bombs go off and nearly even killed by them.

It's an insult to Ireland. Sorry, but it's true. Majority of us Irish never wanted the IRA to launch a terrorist campaign in our name. IRA never has cared for the Irish. Thats why it has killed many of us without thinking.

Everyone is bad as each other, but you blame the British for everything that has taken place. That pathetic and low.

Plus, I like to point out that I hold an Irish passport and declare myself as "Irish". So you cannot accuse me of being bias.

Sympathizing with terrorist is not how we do it at ATS.

Here, Here fellow Irishman

When I was a little boy I never thought anything bad could happen in Ireland and then the true slapped me across the face

Originally posted by blissfullignorance
The IRA has been fighting, in my opinion, the good fight for hundreds of years.

The current IRA have been around since 1969, so not really "hundreds of years". If you think that blowing up pubs in Birmingham constitues "fighting the good fight" then there is no hope for you.

Since easter rising, things have supposedly gotten bad, then better

Do you actually know when the Easter uprising was? Clue: it wasn't last Easter.

... but now my relatives in Dublin are telling me about something they've heard underground.

By the "underground" I presume you mean Mrs O'Leary who props up the bar most nights at The Shamrock and reckons she "knows people"?

That there is a planned uprising of the RIRA, or the real ira as they call themselves.

The last time these morons were active was the 90s and quite a few of them were arrested.

Supposedly, they are going to try to group up, militarize, and attack Northern Ireland.

Well, as the RIRA is reckoned to have a maximum of 150 members it should make for an interesting invastion. Are they going to get a coach up there or a train?

They are apparently too busy fighting with the other splinter groups such as the Continuity IRA and dealing drugs to ever get the time to "attack" NI.

They have no problem with the protestants,

Well that's quite a statement!! Who exactly do they "have a problem" with then? And why have they tended to blow up protestants in the past if they didn't have problem with them? Do you know anything at all about The Troubles and the preceding history? At least check out a few Wiki articles.

and they wouldn't be doing this if it werent for the damned brits.

Yes, us dasterdly Brits - evil Bond villians the lot of us. The Irish must really hate Britain - so much so that about 700,000 of them live and work here...

I'm sorry, I hope I havent offended any of you. any opinions though on what this would mean?

It means you're niave.

Second now, does anyone know of that Thomas Jefferson quote? "Every few hundred years or so, if a government is left in power for too long, it will become unruly. Every generation needs a revolution to straighten out a corrupt system of government.." or something to that effect. Does anyone else think it may be time?

Hmm, well the current government in NI has been in place just over a month, not hundreds of years I would give them a bit more chance myself. Or are you now referring to the US government? It's not clear.

What is clear is that you don't know what you are talking about.

I've re-read this thread after my original reply and I have come to the opinion that its a flame.

It was meant to upset, offend and incite an argument.

I can't believe that in this day and age anyone could post something as crassly ignorant as the opening statements of the first post on an international messageboard.

Manchester



[edit on 16/0607/07 by neformore]

I was standing at the corner of the building you can see below the truck on the opening frame when I was told to move by the police.

[edit on 16/0607/07 by neformore]

[edit on 16/0607/07 by neformore]