Sex Crimes and the Vatican

I was baptised when I turned 19
I went through a catholic church at that time in my life.
the assistant priest was a child molestor and part of the cornwall pedifle ring we later found out. I had no dealing with him, only the head priest
thank God he is born again and normal.

My last girlfriend, her exhusband was abused every second weekend by a priest, his dad would send him there for the weekend
this went on for years...messed that guy up, which messed up the marriage.

My other friend was abused by one of the parole officers in town
any abuse of children especially by people in authority is disgusting

but the abuse in physical form at the schools is well documented in Canada especially to North American Indian children


[edit on 16-6-2007 by junglelord]

Thank God (my God) i was never baptized. I don't give it much meaning but still i like not being affiliated with church in any way, shape, or form.

It's sad to hear all these horror stories and all this was done by priests who should offer advice and guidelines to people in need.

There is only one solution, THE solution:

[edit on 16-6-2007 by sb2012]

I don't go to church.
I live it
its either your true nature or its not
you can fake it to everyone but yourself

Originally posted by sb2012
There is only one solution, THE solution:

I agree. I feel these sex crimes are enough reason to justify ending the Church. I don't think religion and state should be seperate...because if they weren't, this business people call Church would be shut down.

We don't need Church to be religious. Spirituality should be personal and applied to all aspects of life. Instead we designate specific places and specific people to be spiritual for us i.e Church. I can't wait for the fall of Church and the birth of a more spiritually inclined era.


[edit on 16-6-2007 by Cloak and Dagger]

Originally posted by sb2012
There is only one solution, THE solution:

[edit on 16-6-2007 by sb2012]

Hold on there cowboy. That is definitely not the solution. As FlyersFan pointed out, the frequency of sexual abuse in churches is less frequent than that of schools and universities. Does that justify the right to bulldoze those institutions too?

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

Originally posted by sb2012
There is only one solution, THE solution:

Hold on there cowboy. That is definitely not the solution. As FlyersFan pointed out, the frequency of sexual abuse in churches is less frequent than that of schools and universities. Does that justify the right to bulldoze those institutions too?

Potentially yes. Depends on the extremity. Not to go too far off topic but you can educate yourself just fine with the internet, library and discussion with friends =]

I think you and Flyersfan are missing a point. It's not just a factor of how many instances there has been, it's also a matter of who is doing it. Raping or molesting children is horrible...but to do it in the name of God!! To use the power of makinds greatest hope (belief in God) to betray them so deeply!

There has been an unforgiveable amount of sex crimes within these Churches. They clearly are a breeding ground for this kind of evil and the Church is not handling it correctly. Therefore, they should get shut down.




[edit on 16-6-2007 by Cloak and Dagger]

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

Hold on there cowboy. That is definitely not the solution. As FlyersFan pointed out, the frequency of sexual abuse in churches is less frequent than that of schools and universities.

Another point that I think you two are flying right by is that you are grossly underestimating the Priests influence over the child. In school the kids know their teachers are the authority, but they also usually know they can report bad behavior to other authority figures i.e the parents, principal, etc. However, in the Church, the child is led to believe the priest is divine and connected to God. Taddling on that may not be worth the consequences to the child. For example the fear that God will hate them if they report the priests behavior. Not too mention upseting God would upset mom and dad. It makes sense that alot of instances of sex crimes within the Church would not be reported. Evidence for this can be seen by the fact that when they do get reported it's usually an extended period of abuse... obviously the child had their reasons for not talking about it sooner.

[edit on 16-6-2007 by Cloak and Dagger]

"
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Most priests ARE mentally healthy people.



That's absurd. You havn't even met most catholic priests. Or have you? "

I'm only getting throught he 1st page of this thread, but I have to stop right here. I'm sure your (Flyerfan) incounters with Catholic priests are not all that great, but please dont generalize.
I have a close realtive that happens to be a Catholic priest - Now, this man is the most honest and absolutely hysterical people I know.
He also happens to be one of the more higher ranked priests in the Church accussed of child molestation. Big news, lots of controversy.
Either way, it turns out that the accuser (male in early forties?) was a 'sue happy' man, whose own family called my relative to say, they were sorry about him lying, ect..
Well, let me tell you- the church screwed him over- Big Time! They kick him out (sabatical i believe its called) before any court or investigation occurs (making him guilty until proven innocent. And now, who does he turn to, his family? his wife? his children? He can longer be allowed to have mass, and love Jesus amongst others.
Also, say what you will about my credibility and accountability of him as bias, but I, myself have been a victim of child molestation (so this matter has touched me deeply), and still say theres no chance and/or evidence to prove that this man did anything.
Now his life is in shambles.

Originally posted by Cloak and Dagger
However, in the Church, the child is led to believe the priest is divine and connected to God. Taddling on that may not be worth the consequences to the child.

Since when have people or children for that matter been taught that "priests are divine"? Priests are not heavenly, they do not wield any holy power on their own. They are simply men who give up their secular lives in the name of God to serve him and the Church.

Originally posted by Cloak and DaggerFor example the fear that God will hate them if they report the priests behavior.

I think you're underestimating kids and teenagers. I don't know anyone in my church that would think God hates them if they reported a priest for molestation charges. Obviously the guy isn't very holy if he uses his authority to molest children, therefore there's not much to fear from the wrath of God.

Originally posted by Cloak and DaggerNot too mention upseting God would upset mom and dad. It makes sense that alot of instances of sex crimes within the Church would not be reported. Evidence for this can be seen by the fact that when they do get reported it's usually an extended period of abuse... obviously the child had their reasons for not talking about it sooner.

And you also realize that victims of rape come forward 15-20% of the time right? Look, I agree that its a completely terrible thing that some priests are using their authority to take advantage of kids, but any time you put certain people in power, you're going to have a few crazies here and there that end up killing/maiming/raping the people that are under their power. It's nothing new, looking at it from a historical standpoint.



But as I've said, only .02% of priests were accused of rape or molestation. That does not give you the right to condemn the 99.8% who are doing a damn good job.

Sorry about my posting wrong and all, Im new to this-

Now, I believe that when stated that priests are 'called' to God it doesnt give the right impression. I believe that most 'true religious' priests experience some sort of epiphany, or a 'feeling' of a calling within them, and that is why they become priests. Thats just my personal opinion though. And, abstaining from sex is both an 'earthly sacrifice' to him, and the devotion of ones' time to God and his teachings only. As oppossed to raising your own family, ect..
Also, I hate the priest and the little boy comments (which noone here directly mentioned- thanks!) because it assumes that all priests are A. Homosexual and B. Pedophiles - Sorry, just had to add that.
And, does anyone have any links to research done on celibicy and pedophilia connections?

Also keep in mind that as my 1st post implied- You are looking at reported abuse CLAIMS, which as stated by others, can give you the idea that there are more unreported cases making the abuse number higher. But, how many of the claims are even true?
By no means am I trying to defend the guilty molesters (I would rather rot in hell actually), but keep in mind that there are many crazy, greedy or attention addicts out there that make false claims.

Originally posted by TheB1ueSoldier

I think you're underestimating kids and teenagers. I don't know anyone in my church that would think God hates them if they reported a priest for molestation charges. Obviously the guy isn't very holy if he uses his authority to molest children, therefore there's not much to fear from the wrath of God.

You're missing my point.

You and I understand the wrath of God isn't supporting those men. But the children have a much harder time coming to that understanding. They are going to Church under the assumption it's a safe place, reinforced by their parents attendance, and the observance of there parents obediance to the Church authority. They know the Church is a place of God and they understand the priest is their intermediary to God. That puts the priest as a powerful authority figure. So, yes, older wiser people would most likely know better and report a sex crime regardless of the persons social status, but we are talking about little kids. I guess that's why they are targeted, these corrupt priests are exploiting their innocence of the world.

Look, I agree that its a completely terrible thing that some priests are using their authority to take advantage of kids, but any time you put certain people in power, you're going to have a few crazies here and there that end up killing/maiming/raping the people that are under their power. It's nothing new, looking at it from a historical standpoint.

Jesus Christ...

Well I guess the ones that see this as a serious injustice should bend over backward and take up your historical standpoint

Or maybe you're right and we can reduce this moral issue down to statisctics. A few rapes and maims here and there can be tolerated...as long as they don't affect the profit margin of the tithings right?

These corrupt priests are not just one man, they represent something bigger. Like God. That makes it a much bigger injustice to the world.

But as I've said, only .02% of priests were accused of rape or molestation. That does not give you the right to condemn the 99.8% who are doing a damn good job.

I think the percent was a little higher? Based on what I have collected so far from this thread.

Again, missing my point.

It's a small percent but a huge number of "reported" cases. That's thousands too many. I agree that some is to be expected, but when you get a number that high it clearly shows corruption has infiltrated what ever moral fabric was holding the priests together towards their path to God. The fact the Church even allowed this to happen to begin with (the pedophiles went through an interview process no??) is evidence of corruption. There is further corruption in how they are handling these cases. They are practically laughing at justice.


[edit on 17-6-2007 by Cloak and Dagger]

Also remember that in the eyes of many children, all adults are in a power position- It's the whole they're older they know more mentality. Regardless, these men using the name of God to force sexual abuses are discusting to say the least- But, one could argue that any adult (ex. school teacher, parents friend) are using their 'power postion' to pressure these children- Children are going to be fearful to tell anyone about the abuse in many situations due to their belief that they will 'get in trouble'

Plus, noone has seemed to comment on my 'false claims' notions- or even my personal experience with the Catholic Church. I'm just noticing that because it appears as though people would rather waste time arguing with one another instead of trying to stimulate the mind

Don't worry about false claims. Any expert can talk to the children and investigators can easily see crooks who are in just for the profit. On the other hand, if church wants to silence victims outside the court and they can't see who is lying just to get the money, i don't care about their money.

But trust me, this pile of # is huge (100.000+ victims globally so far) and false claims are easily discovered, very low in numbers and not a problem, BUT i heard a lot of priests and supporters of the rotten church saying kids are just making it up because they want attention.

Can you imagine, first they rape the children, then they say they are just seeking attention when they gather courage to speak! If this is not enough reason for you to leave the church, what is it then? They need to rape your kids?

Agreed. Im sure children have been raped, as well as molested by priests before. And, these could also be the children being accussed of wanting attention. Its awful, and I cant image how horrific the children in discussion must feel to be called a liar about something so vitally important.
All that I am trying to add is that my relative was being accussed by someone who was obviously lying, in order to get attention, money, ect... And instead of defending the integrity and giving the deserved respect to this particular person, the 'church' basically said, 'ok, now, just get lost for awhile so it goes away!' Keep in mind that this priest was also a very professional, and high ranking part of the diocese.
I guess the bottom line is that the vatican has been handling all of these cases badly- and doing so in the name of God!
Umm...maybe they should refer to their 'what would Jesus do?' bracelets for some better direction and advise.

Originally posted by nowayreally
Also remember that in the eyes of many children, all adults are in a power position- It's the whole they're older they know more mentality. ... But, one could argue that any adult (ex. school teacher, parents friend) are using their 'power postion' to pressure these children- Children are going to be fearful to tell anyone about the abuse in many situations due to their belief that they will 'get in trouble'

I agree completely. Do you agree with my point that it's an even bigger injustice when it comes from a priest versus a teacher? Since the priest is a representitve of the Holy, all-loving, God.

It seems like a big slap in the face to the believers to me.

Plus, noone has seemed to comment on my 'false claims' notions- or even my personal experience with the Catholic Church. I'm just noticing that because it appears as though people would rather waste time arguing with one another instead of trying to stimulate the mind

No I did read your post and thought about it. I don't reply to all the messages I want to reply to. Heh.

I agree with your false claim notion, but for reasons I highlighted in my previous posts, I think they are drastically outnumbered by the legit cases that go 'unreported-. It just makes sense considering child psychology.

Originally posted by nowayreally
Umm...maybe they should refer to their 'what would Jesus do?' bracelets for some better direction and advise.

Yeah exactly Living a lie is bad enough, but they live a BIG one. When the good priests find out about these evil pedophiles, the most humane thing to do is report the entire case to officials outside the Church walls. At the very least kick them out of the Church. The fact that there has been transfers...

Originally posted by sb2012
Can you imagine, first they rape the children, then they say they are just seeking attention when they gather courage to speak! If this is not enough reason for you to leave the church, what is it then? They need to rape your kids?

Seriously.

I wonder what the threshold point of tolerance for Church-goers is? How far would the Church have to go before they see the fullness of the injustice and act? I guess the same can be said about the Peoples complacency to the corruption in Governments



[edit on 17-6-2007 by Cloak and Dagger]

C&D-
Nice tie in with our compliance with government!!! And, I do believe these real offenders as being particularly henious, by using the Lords as a mockery.
IMO, I know this sounds kinda odd, but I believe that priests/nuns/holy people are consistently being tempted. Why does evil itself want to bother someone like myself, for example, who already sins often. He want those who are 'married' to God- What better than to turn them into a human with an awful and perverted lust? Thats just my personal theory, so...

Originally posted by nowayreally

IMO, I know this sounds kinda odd, but I believe that priests/nuns/holy people are consistently being tempted. Why does evil itself want to bother someone like myself, for example, who already sins often. He want those who are 'married' to God- What better than to turn them into a human with an awful and perverted lust? Thats just my personal theory, so...

Hmm interesting twist. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting an evil force, maybe the Devil?, is targeted priests to temptation over your average sinner? Since they are closer to God, turning them evil is a way to upset God? Basically the Devil is tempting the priests?