One-fifth of world's surveillance focused on Brits!

believe we are classed as a state, as far as the english language is concerned, now as to whether we are independant or not well....to be honuest westminster still holds the reigns....I mean can our first minister remove our troops from iraq? Can he declare peace? No we simply a more powered people than our southern counterparts

The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy comprised of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

UK

Just to clear this up, maybe where you live, you class scotland as a state, but where I live we are a country, the same goes for England and Wales. And what has the english language got to do with this?

And another thing, Im not stupid I know he cant withdraw the troops, or declare peace, but he sure can do alot of other things without the permissiom of westminster.... Most of the Services such as the NHS, Law is Independant from Westminster.. Has always been that way, and it will continue...

Originally posted by spencerjohnstone
The United Kingdom is a constitutional monarchy comprised of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

UK

Ahem: www.google.co.uk...

Just to clear this up, maybe where you live, you class scotland as a state, but where I live we are a country, the same goes for England and Wales. And what has the english language got to do with this?

I live on both sides of the border spencer, dont try that one mate and I've have moved around this country quite a bit thank you....The english language is OUR language, Ie: Something that defines how we comunicate...

And another thing, Im not stupid I know he cant withdraw the troops, or declare peace, but he sure can do alot of other things without the permissiom of westminster....

I never said you where, I meant your simply illinformed...The scottish parliment has only administrative power (control of police, NHS, taxes, fishery protection ,etc) it is in no way in control of the MOD's forces , unless they declare a state of emergancy but that has to be declared by an MP.

Most of the Services such as the NHS, Law is Independant from Westminster.. Has always been that way, and it will continue...

As I said, we are different but we do not have soverignty. Until we have that we are still technically under the control of westminster and as such not a soverign country.


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]

I live in England and I personally don't see the problem with all the CCTV. In the privacy of my own home I have privacy. On the streets, I have security. Personally, I think my home town could do with a lot more CCTV, and I'd even encourage them on my street. The way I see it is, I have nothing to hide wondering the streets, they can find out more about me by what I purchase with my debit card than watching me walk into a library or shop.

I think the other Bin spy cams story was old, this one however is hot off the UK presses:

www.telegraph.co.uk

Bin bag 'spy camera' to enforce refuse rules

Last Updated: 1:23am BST 16/06/2007

A council is to hide a camera in a bin bag to catch residents who do not follow new rules about putting out the rubbish.To enforce the new rules, a camera will be placed in a rubbish bag and left in an alleyway to blend in with the surroundings to catch offenders. Those filmed breaking the rules will be given a ticking off.

Repeat offenders could be handed a fixed penalty notice or even be taken to court and fined up to £1,000.

The tiny covert camera, which has cost Weymouth and Portland Council, Dorset, up to £10,000, will also help catch householders who put their rubbish out too early or too late.

This is just crazy, when is government control, bureaucracy and CCTV spying 'too much'?! When they place CCTV spy cams in your trash cans would be a good answer...!


[edit on 6/16/2007 by greatlakes]

No doubt about it, the article is correct, I've checked out many rinf articles and I have never once found them incorrect.

Research these things for yourself like I have and you'll come to the same conclusion.

A fact is fact, if you disagree with it or not.

Well, having already participated in a UK CCTV thread, I am not suprised to see this degenerate to a matter of US vs UK. To be honest, this is just us Brits getting pissed off with the patronizing Yanks who think they know it all from their basement, having never even left their own state (Yes, generalisation, sue me).

I wont bother with the original arguments of the Closed CTV being 90% private, or even the fact that when I was a kid I was shoplifting from a shop with CCTV and still not caught. I wont bother saying that it's only really town centers and none are aimed into residential areas or windows, and, as someone else said in the small eventuality that they do, areas are blocked off to maintain privacy.

There is currently by no means enough man-power to deal with the quantity of CCTV, except for retrospectively. Footage is often only kept for a certain amount of time before being recorded over, leading to most of it never even being seen.


Whilst annoying know it alls do piss me off, and that I actually found some of Lake-whatevers comments grossly ignorant, patronising and downright rude, I think we should try not to entirely oppose him simply because he is an _______. We are swinging too far to oppose him, to the point of becoming blind to the issue itself, in a way.

More and more of the infastructure is being put in place, and if there was efficient facial recognition software (and a hella lot of hardware) set up and all of the CCTV footage centralised, then we would indeed have something as bad, if not worse, than mandatory RFID cards.

To be honest though, I certainly don't see this happening soon, and they'd have to slide it in either secretly or very slowly, as there's a limit to what we'll put up with. Sure we're reserved, and apologise if someone bumps into us, but we're capable of standing up for ourselves and kicking arse when the time comes.


The state doens't (to my knowledge) have my fingerprints or DNA on file, which I find comforting, and a friend of mine who got arrested a week or so ago is devasted that now he's one more number in the statistic. A few years ago, a few sixteen year old friends were taken in for Graffiti, and from that point till they die the government has their fingerprints and DNA, which I find outrageous. Supposedly fingerprint and DNA evidence is destroyed if you're innocent, but to be honest I wouldn't be suprised if that data made its way to a central database before it was destroyed. I have also known incidences of people 'helping with enquiries' (as in, uncharged) have had samples taken, and again, I find this revolting.


All of these things said, there is a tangible effect on law and order. We are a drinking culture, and we drink to excess. We also have violent types, who when drunk love nothing more than to cause a little trouble. These things combined make walking around at 10pm-4am quite unsafe. I would never let my gf walk alone at night. However, for almost every crime that is commited in these city centers, the culprit pays a price. This has reduced violent crime, and will only become more effective over time. CCTV evidence really is a nail in the coffin when it comes to trials, preventing many guilty parties from walking straight back onto the streets to fight/steal/rob again.

So yeah, in my opinion, police state's a possible future, although an unlikely one. Currently I don't think we have the police power to even think about it, and we are just playing catch up to keep our citizens safe from the dregs of society.



If they invent a camera which smells weed smoke, then I'll be upset.



[edit on 17-6-2007 by x4nder]

[edit on 17-6-2007 by x4nder]

As I have said previously in another thread.

DONT PANIC!!

Never forget, we are Englishmen, we have thrown out governments and the Catholics and chopped the head off a king. we have defeated countries and changed the face of this world.
Thatcher, hard as she was saw the wrath and determination of the English people and backed down.
We can be pushed so far and no more. I have faith in my fellow Englishmen. Revolution and revolt is relatively easy in the UK despite the stupid laws set up to stop it. Weve done it before, we can do it again.
We, unlike some other countries arent sheep. We have fought hard for our liberty and will do so again if asked.

I don't know why Americans in this thread are surprised Brits are in denial about the police state, our population is no different. Most of these stories are being reported by UK outlets, at least it's actually reported in the UK press. This cultural schism is really non existent, moreover, the same big brother is watching us both.

I dont think us Brits are in denial about anything.
It seems to me that its people who dont live here speaking the rubbish.

The bit about the camera in the binbag? probably true as so many scumbags simply drop their rubbish in other peoples bins or dont use the correct recycling bins provided. The UK is a very small country and our landfill sites are running out. We have to recycle more but some people just arent prepared to do so, hence the camera to find the cuprits. Would you like to find your rubbish bin filled with someone elses rubbish? or would you be happy to be penalised because, whilst you were recycling properly, 40% of your neighbours were too lazy?.

The other surveillance cameras? of the great number of cameras purported to exist in the UK, the great majority of them are privately owned and used in stores or around the premises of stores.
Most of the other cameras are situated around town or city centers or areas known for problems. They can quickly find fights or robberies and direct the police/ambulances/fire services. Unfortuanately at night many places in the UK are now suffering alcohol related problems and these cameras help.

On a personal note, my wife had her purse lifted from her bag in Oxford Street, London, the thieves were tracked on camera and caught and my wifes purse was returned to her 20 minutes later.

Its only people doing wrong that have to fear the cameras.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Britain is definitely more police statish than the US. Ive been living here for a year and a half, and I never am ceased to be amazed by the amount of cameras and intrusion of the nannystate it is here.

Originally posted by CarlosG
I believe that we Brits are test subjects for many things because of our character. The saying "step on an Englishman's foot and he'll apologise" springs to mind. We accept things that are forced onto us more than other nations might. We just don't complain about things. I don't particularly like the idea of cameras everywhere in an ideal world, but we are not in an ideal world, and I have to accept that, and therefore have to accept the cameras too.

I think the rock group Pink Floyd said it well in a song on their Dark Side of the Moon album:
"Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way."
No, it's not an ideal world...It'll never be an ideal world if we all let our governments do our thinking for us. My reasons for saying this are described better below.

Well, back in the mid-to-late 1700's, those colonists that were being put upon by the English Crown violating the Magna Carta decided not to be "quietly desperate" anymore. They were pushed into being loudly desperate. Personally, I don't hold any grudges & wish only the best of luck to our "fatherland"...Living so near (geographically speaking) to all those "terrorists" in the Middle East, you'll need it.

Well, like nearly all nations did throughout the entire scope of human civilization has, I'd say. "Let the Brits live under the governmental thumb. If that's what the English Public wants, then more power to the English Government."
The original Constitutional Republic of America was the real New World Order, because it tried to break the mold of history. History has proven time & again that when the government is soveriegn over the people, then the government usually grows too large & invasive/manipulating until it gets overthrown; But when the People are soveriegn over the government, then the government can be kept from degenerating into tyranny (if we carefully watch for it).

The biggest problem in the USA is not the government...Not really. It's that the People have forgotten the basis of that New World Order as the Founding Fathers gave it to us...The Government has been imposing the "Old World Order" (as it has existed in human history) & thrown off the chains of the Constitution. It's just that it's not going to be easy getting it back under control.

Ok, so sue me if I just happen to be "camera shy"...

Originally posted by completenuttergit
It is not as bad as BIG BROTHER ! we are free to do anything we want as long as it is law abiding , step out of line, and ur spotted, well , sorry, u asked for it !!!!

But who makes the laws?...Big Brother, of course!
What happens in a society that creates so many laws that Big Brother could label you as a criminal for something like, oh, let's say breathing?
To use a specific example (admittedly, an extreme example, but just to make a point) from earlier, about someone littering. Let's say one of you Brits happened to open a pack of biscuits to munch on & you accidently drop the wrapping. Ok, fine...No problem if you immediately pick it up so you can get it to a littercan.
Now let's say that, behind the CCTV (in a government-owned building you're visiting for official buisiness) the person monitoring just doesn't like the way you look for some reason/any reason/no reason & just feels like messing up your day; He could use the tape that shows you dropping the wrapper, cut out the part that shows you picking it up & use that for evidence when he reports you...
What would you do to prove yourself innocent?

Throughout history, any government will try to grow too large & too invasive, to the point where any Citizen can & will be abused in any way possible. Simply because the politicians are human too & will be tempted to use any level of abusive power they can get away with...Hence the US Founding Forefathers created a government that would be servant to the People. With no such checks on limiting the growth of government, it will become abusive to the people.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
I dont understand the whole "the UK is more of a police state" "the U.S. is more of a police state" bit.

A police state isnt any good for anyone. Its a pretty foolish back and forth. It doesnt matter where the police state is. It only matters that it is destryoed. And fast.

Yes! Yes! Finally, someone who recognizes the real truth! Invasive/Abusive Governments are the very antithesis of our world! How soon the English seem to have forgotten what Nazi Gernamy was like! How soon you have forgotten how a Police State under the likes of Castro & Sodamn Insane (yes, I spell that name like this on purpose) treats people!
It's out-of-control Governments, seeking total control over everything, that is the root-cause of why humanity has not been able to unite as a one-world population through social maturity!

Originally posted by devilwasp
....are you implying that the buisness's, private homes and corporations are really creating a "police state" instead of the government? Because thats more believable and more possible than anything else you have suggested so far..

Perhaps if you were to peruse this thread, I might suggest you pay closer attention to the section about the "Merchant Class" as it's described...

Originally posted by stumason
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Police state my arse, check this thread out and then come back and call us a Police state...

Jeebus H. Christos....

A new Waco could be underway as reports come in of law enforcement, APC's and SWAT team personnel descending on the home of Ed Brown, the tax protester who has threatened to use force to defend himself against authorities.

Fred Smart, a close friend of the Brown's confirmed that Brown's phone has been cut and that at around 8:30PM last night a silent surveillance drone with a bright beaming light encircled the Brown's property as if conducting reconnaissance.

Emphasis mine.....

I laugh at your paranoia....

Perhaps you should try a little harder to keep up with current news...The previous link kindly brought to you from right here at ATS.
BTW, it's not paranoia (if defined as an unreasonable fear with no basis in fact) if they really are out to get you...In the case of governments (& the corporations, which have excessive amounts of influence in government), however, they're not out to get you personally, just get you along with everyone else.

Originally posted by completenuttergit
...so , in a nutshell YES we have cameras but there are laws that govern there use and any that flout those laws will be dealt with..
NO POLICE STATE !!

But as I have been pointing out, with the facts of history to back it up, is that those with Power (be it government/corporate/organized religion) will always try to grab more Power & Control...Even to the point of breaking their own laws!
...As you've seem to have recognized already:

Originally posted by completenuttergit
...I have also seen abuses of the system first hand and in my capacity as engineer at the time i have reported and seen operators fired for abusing the system...

Originally posted by waynos
Its an excellent way to get the message across, you seem hell bent on protecting the rights of criminals, tax dodgers and other law breakers to do what they want and get away with it.

Well, either all Citizens have Rights...Or none have Rights. Those Rights are put in place to protect the innocent until proven guilty. At least, that's how it's supposed to work--An abusive government will keep whittling down the Rights of Citizens until they achieve total control (after all, it's what governments do as a matter of course).
This is why the US Founding Forefathers hated Democracy & set up a Republic form of government; In a Democracy, 51% of the Citizens can "vote away" all of the Rights (even the Right to live) of the other 49%!

All it would take for any government to achieve total control is two things: The Ruling Power to control the public's access to information & release of propaganda--ie: control of the media; The Ruling Power has the ability to constantly monitor its Citizens.

Even history will bear this out: In all but two cases, Democracy has always degenerated into tyranny. In a test of your history lessons, can you tell me those two exceptions?
In one case, Democracy was already degenerating, but the country fell under foreign military invasion; The other case just hasn't had enough time to degenerate into complete tyranny yet.
-------------------------
Continued below...

Concluded from above...
-------------------------------------

Originally posted by waynos

What I am saying is that once you get used to your basic rights taken away,

But what basic rights have I lost through having CCTV in the streets and shops? None whatsoever.

I think a point you're missing is that it's not just the CCTV; Pervasive & invasive surveilence takes many forms & it all adds up to a complete knowledge of whatever is monitored. Don't all of those "trial" & "test runs" forced into your daily life make you feel like a lab rat?
As pointed out before, it's a whole system designed to whittle away Rights...A little here, a little there, a slight "compromise" over this, that & the other thing...
It all adds up, slowly & gradually, just so people will "get used to it" over time. Next thing you know, you can't do anything at all unless the Ruling Powers have okayed it first.

Originally posted by waynos
That is truly excellent, of course, and may it for ever remain so, but you brought up guns and while they are so freely available in the USA the possibility of 'the nutter with the gun' must also remain ever present. I am extremely glad that it is illegal here, may that never change.

Given a choice between a camera on every corner or a gun in every home, I'll take the camera's every time.

Consider that, if someone is a nutter & he wants to get ahold of a gun, it's a pretty safe bet that (no matter where you are & what laws are in place) nutter will get a gun somehow...Granted, such a situation would be more rare there, but it's not out of the realm of being feasibly possible.
...So what would it take to stop that nutter from shooting you? A camera would help the cops find & arrest the nutter later on, but you'd still be dead.

Originally posted by waynos
Americans regularly mis-quote the constituion to justify carrying guns when that is not what it says at all, Note that even the often misquoted Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution grants citizens a right to bear arms only in the context of “well regulated militia”, but that part is always left out!

I left out nothing in this particular quote (because the Amendment includes militia but isn't restricted to militia), but I did insert the bold-emphasis to make the point:

Amendment II - Right to bear arms. Ratified 12/15/1791.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Originally posted by Chorlton
The UK is a very small country and our landfill sites are running out.

And quite probably living space, arable farmlands & a whole slew of other problems that you run into with finite resources (the whole blamed Earth itself falls into the category of "finite" resources). However, with Japan being geographically smaller than the British Isles & more populous per square mile, I'd suppose their problems would be a bit worse.

I kind of wonder what Mexico's excuse is?...

Originally posted by realyweely
We have fought hard for our liberty and will do so again if asked.

Amen to that, cousin across the pond! Even with all the differences we have, we are all still united in the Brotherhood of Humanity. Even one of the documents that led to the birth of the USA (the Magna Carta) is merely one testament to your statement!

Orignally posted by MinighDstroyer

Yes! Yes! Finally, someone who recognizes the real truth! Invasive/Abusive Governments are the very antithesis of our world! How soon the English seem to have forgotten what Nazi Gernamy was like! How soon you have forgotten how a Police State under the likes of Castro & Sodamn Insane (yes, I spell that name like this on purpose) treats people!

Christ. Ease up on the caffeine.

Do you have any idea how insulting the above is to a British person?

Neformore, ignore him, he's a fool, spouting utter rubbish.

Someone eles said it. We are English, we arent sheep. So far, and no more.

Originally posted by Chorlton
I dont think us Brits are in denial about anything.
It seems to me that its people who dont live here speaking the rubbish.

Most of these stories are being seen on PrisonPlanet which grabs links from UK newspapers, two of the main reporters for that site are two of your countrymen, Steve and Paul Watson. Regardless of what one thinks of the Daily Mail "Tony Blair has turned Britain into a land where we are all prisoners" sounds like pretty alarming commentary. How about this story which says The "stop and question" power would enable police to interrogate people about who they are, where they have been and where they were going, The Sunday Times said. Police would not need to suspect a crime had taken place.

If suspects failed to stop or refused to answer questions, they could be charged with a crime and fined, The Sunday Times said. Police already have the power to stop and search people but have no right to ask them their identity and movements.

The Sunday Times said the powers already existed in Northern Ireland. Civil rights groups viewed the plan to extend them to the rest of Britain as an attack on civil liberties, it said.


So yes, it's not just Amercian's speaking this rubbish. Of course it seems worse from afar, I haven't been over there in 16 years, it "sounds" just as bad as the US right now. Granted, I'm inclined to believe Brits with the same outlook as me, it seems many still don't believe in the NWO.

[edit on 19-6-2007 by Amelie]

They've overstated this totally... 2/3rds of the surveillance are paparazzi watching the Princes Harry and whats his name.

Hmmmmmmm , Is this thread still rumbling on?

Ok we have cameras, i just dont care , really i dont. I have seen them installed , operated , abused , removed , moved and destroyed...

I hate the bloody things i worked wiv em long enough to know that privately run companies that install this equipment (and i worked under one of the largest , Initial Shorrock) have no gvmnt ties.. None!

All private are self contained as i have said over and over.

web cams are .. well just that !!!

Im English , British , lived here all my life i love it .. im free to do what i like within the laws of this land , this Island , But , i must admitt im getting fed up with a hell of a lot of other stuff , like imigration which i personally find more important than flippin cameras !!!

There i said it and i know im going to hear a lot of " see we told u your all walkovers " were not we just dont let it bother us , really 99% of us dont give a flyin F*** at a rolling ring donut about em , well apart from them pesky gatso things and the new ones they are rolling out.. now those are a cash cow!! saftey cameras my arse!! cause more accidents when people break to slow down for them ...

oops i went off on one again .. sorry folks

regards to all

git

Originally posted by neformore
Christ. Ease up on the caffeine.

You take one small part of a very large post, out of context with the whole, & think it was meant to be insulting?
Or did you simply not read the whole post, at least to the point where I said (in response to realyweely):

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
Amen to that, cousin across the pond! Even with all the differences we have, we are all still united in the Brotherhood of Humanity.

Originally posted by Chorlton
Neformore, ignore him, he's a fool, spouting utter rubbish.

And direct insults are against the Terms of Service here...Better hope no one reports it or you're likely to get warned a few times, then banned if it continues. I'd be willing to bet that you didn't even bother to research the background material I'd mentioned.
So where is the insult in what I posted? BTW, I don't drink caffeine beverages; I don't need to add any more reasons for staying up so late at nights...The Government here is plenty reason enough as it is.

Originally posted by completenuttergit
There i said it and i know im going to hear a lot of " see we told u your all walkovers " were not we just dont let it bother us , really 99% of us dont give a flyin F*** at a rolling ring donut about em...

Ok, now that you've positively established the difference between the "possibility of being unaware of how much surveilance is used in the UK" & "Pure apathy about the amount of surveilance in the UK," that's no excuse to get downright abusive about it. BTW, that's also against the ToS.
And I thought the English were supposed to be well-mannered & even tempered...You obviously don't fit that stereotype (but then, neither does Monty Python or the more adolescent-style humor of Benny Hill).

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
You take one small part of a very large post, out of context with the whole, & think it was meant to be insulting?
Or did you simply not read the whole post, at least to the point where I said (in response to realyweely):

I did read the whole post, and no I didn't take it out of context. You intimated that people in the UK had forgotten what Nazi Germany was like, and then asked if you realised how insulting that might be? You never answered that.

As for the caffeine comment - your posting style is quite full on, and rather than posting in caps - like alot of posters on this thread - you type in italics when you are trying to force a point. Admittedly its not as heavy handed as caps but it did make me think you were either taking things way too seriously or had consumed alot of caffiene.

I'll say this about this thread and other similar ones posted recently - and this is not directed squarely at you Midnight - its taught me alot about the world as it stands right now.

It appears that certain sections of American society really do not give a toss about other peoples cultures, customs, laws and ways of doing things, and that they think their way is better (probably because they've never experienced anything different) and the opinions and experience of other people makes no difference. Its not an endearing quality to say the least, because - as you will have seen on this thread, even from the most patient of British posters - it makes people angry.

And suddenly the root causes of other problems around the world start to come more sharply into focus.