Pentagon "NTSB animation" is wrong!

im pretty sure the order was given no aircraft whatsoever unless miliary & cleared immediately. you can see the helicopter at the wtc and then thats the last aircraft i saw either IRL or on tv/video untill the ungrounding later that week.'

correction, there is a brief glimps of an aircraft at the pentagon. obviously military however.

whats scary is that the order "no press whatsoever" has been given in recent history, of course i mean the waco incident.

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit

I've only read the first few posts, and the last posts on this page, so forgive me if I miss something etc.. but there are a few important points I'd like to raise:

You need to read every post. That way you won't be asking questions that have been thoroughly and completely answered. Thanks.

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit

I know that is a lot to take on board, but there are so many holes there has to be a more logical explanation.

How about this for logical...

Maybe the aforementioned csv file and animation didn't really come from the NTSB as portrayed by snowygrouch. Seriously, if the NTSB sent you a CD-R with an animation and a csv file that drastically contradicted the animation, don't you think you might be doing something more worthwhile with it than posting it anonymously and spamming conspiracy forums to promote a self-produced DVD?

And don't you think that maybe, just maybe, you might have pointed out what would have been the most dramatic evidence of a cover-up re 9/11 -that the NTSB gave you two contradictory flight paths for FL 77 rather than try to make a case that the light poles were planted?

The entire PF911T argument is that the animation shows FL 77 north of the Citgo and not in line with the knocked over poles, or in line with the physical damage at the Pentagon. So why conclude that the animation is what is correct, and the poles and the damage was somehow faked?

[edit on 1-6-2007 by nick7261]

Originally posted by johnlear

You need to read every post. That way you won't be asking questions that have been thoroughly and completely answered. Thanks.

John, to be fair, this thread is about the "NTSB" animation being WRONG! The questions pertaining to this topic have not been answered.

I appreciate the detailed analysis you've done of the FDR data, but the FDR data that snowygrouch claims to have originated from the NTSB can't be verified. This includes both the FL 77 animation video, and the FDR csv data file.

So all the detailed commentary about the altitude trim settings, etc., is like analyzing a forgery of the Mona Lisa and then making conclusions about da Vinci based on the forgery.

At this point, there is no reason to believe that all of the raw data that supposedly came from the FL 77 FDR came from the NTSB at all. And yet this myth has taken on such a life of its own that a Presidential candidate has actually posted a blog entry citing the P4911T claims on his website.

And let's be honest.

The claims made by snowygrouch about the animation video and the csv file originating from the NTSB at this point have no more authenticity than my 3-year old child claiming that the tooth fairly left her the quarter she found under her pillow.

This is the question that not only hasn't been answered, but has been avoided by everybody associated with PF911T. When Jack Tripper wanted to stir up excitement about the upcoming PentaCon video release, he was posting here daily, and was even given his own forum.

When Caustic Logic pointed out that the NTSB video is wrong, there's been dead silence from the same people who claimed the NTSB video showed not only the wrong flight path, but the wrong altitude. Instead of focusing on the flight path, why didn't the P4911T just have a press conference and announce that the NTSB gave them contradictory data? That would have been headline news!

Instead they took one piece of the data, the animation, claimed that the animation is what accurately displayed the *real* flight path of FL 77, and then used the animation to peddle their video that "exposed" this nefarious conspiracy.

The more amazing thing is what happened next.

The csv file that allegedly represented FL 77's FDR data was then dissected and analyzed in detail regarding the altitude trim settings and the barometric pressure. The conclusions reached were that the csv data *proves* that the NTSB csv file was doctored. But instead of coming to the obvious conclusion, that it was snowygrouch or one of his cohorts that created and/or doctored the csv file, the csv file was used as some sort of evidence that the government was conspiring to cover-up the "truth" about FL 77.

In summary, a video animation and a csv file that came from snowygrouch, not the NTSB, show that FL 77 didn't follow the "official" flight path. Big deal. The only relevance this has is in terms of how much money PF911T made from this scheme.

The only question left is when will ATS put the "(HOAX)" beside the PentaCon threads.


P.S. As somebody who's allowed your name to be placed on the PF911T website, you might want to look into this a little bit more closely. Frankly, I was dumbfounded that until yesterday you weren't even aware of the animation video.

Huh.... so this is all a forgery (the video and the CSV file)?

[edit on 2-6-2007 by mirageofdeceit]

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit
Huh.... so this is all a forgery (the video and the CSV file)?

[edit on 2-6-2007 by mirageofdeceit]

At this point all that can be stated with 100% certainty is that at least one of the above is a "forgery."

The whole point of Caustic's find is that the animation doesn't match-up with the csv file or the flight path north of the Citgo, which was the entire point of the Pandora's Black Box video -that the animation showed a north of the Citgo flight path. PF911T and snowygrouch claim the csv file and the animation were sent to snowygrouch as part of an FOIA request.

Here's what Caustic found...

The animation shows that the flight path came in north of the Citgo which just so happens to corroborate the eye-witnesses interviewed in the PentaCon video.

However, the video shows a magnetic heading into the Pentagon of 70 degrees according to the heading dial on the cockpit screen. This matches the magnetic heading shown in the csv file.

However, this is where Caustic unraveled the whole mess. For FL 77 to come in north of the Citgo with a heading that actually matched the video, the true heading would have been 80 degrees. However, the magnetic heading of 70 which is shown on the video, and shown in the csv file corresponds to a true heading of *60* degrees. This puts the flight path even further SOUTH of the Citgo, not north. (Check out the posts I put up in this thread with the graphics.)

If the true heading were 60 degrees and FL 77 passed north of the Citgo, it would have hit the far left corner of the Pentagon, if at all. What this shows is that the animation, which PF911T used as evidence of a Pentagon fly-over and non-pole-hitting flight path could NOT match the eye-witness accounts that claimed a flight path north of the Citgo. In other words, the animation magnetic heading was wrong. With a magnetic heading of 70 which is shown in the video, the flight path would have been further south, or the flight path would have taken FL 77 to the left edge of the Pentagon, not over the top of it.

This all leads back to one certainty -the animation and the csv file do NOT match. The PF911T on their website act as if this was obvious somehow. Yet instead of jumping up and down about how the NTSB gave them contradictory data on the same CD, they instead promoted the theory that the animation was the *REAL* flight path of FL 77, proving that FL 77 didn't hit the poles, and was too high to hit the Pentagon.

I.e., they choose the animation as being *real* over the csv file even though the csv file matched perfectly with the pole damage and the physical damage to the interior support beams of the Pentagon.

The weak link in the PF911T's entire story is the source of the animation and the csv file. They claim a person with the name snowygrouch obtained the csv and animation from the NTSB through a FOIA request. However, the letter from the NTSB which they scanned and posted makes no mention of the animation at all, and only references that a csv file exists, not that it was included with the FOIA request.

A search of the NTSB web site, and of Google, reveals that the only place the csv file or the animation exist online origintates with PF911T.

These are the facts as I understand them. You can draw your own conclusion as to whether the csv file and animation are "forgeries" created by members associated with PF911T, or whether the NTSB sent snowygrouch a CD with an animation that the NTSB failed to mention in their letter, along with a csv file that contradicted the animation.

My conclusion is that if the latter were true, this would have been the BIG story, not the north-of-the-Citgo flight path. The fact that the entire purpose of the PentaCon video is to argue the north-of-the-Citgo flight path makes me believe that the people who produced and promoted the PentaCon video also produced the animation.

If this is true then "hoax" might not be the appropriate word to use. Criminal "fraud" might be more fitting.

Hmm..... Where is "snowygrouch"?

The only thing for it is to make another FOIA request, explicitly requesting the animation and CSV file, and see what you get back.

Nick... 911myths.com has a link to another NTSB flight 77 animation. It's under the "whats new" section. You'll notice that there's a reference about the jerf forum, I dug around over there and found the thread five or six pages back in the conspiracy theories sub-forums. I don't know if it is what you're looking for but hopefully so and there's a little history about how and why he has the information. I'm pretty sure that CL has already posted the video in this thread.

Originally posted by Boone 870
Nick... 911myths.com has a link to another NTSB flight 77 animation. It's under the "whats new" section. You'll notice that there's a reference about the jerf forum, I dug around over there and found the thread five or six pages back in the conspiracy theories sub-forums. I don't know if it is what you're looking for but hopefully so and there's a little history about how and why he has the information. I'm pretty sure that CL has already posted the video in this thread.

Thanks! I'll check it out. I think CL posted it too. From what I understand, what has been called the "NTSB" animation has never been authenticated as having originated from the NTSB. Maybe this will shed some light on the story.

You're welcome! I have to admit that I'm still confused on this subject, but I hope this thread keeps going until some answers are found. I do very little posting and a whole lot of reading about flight 77 and if I run across anything else that may be of help I'll let you know. Good luck.

Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by mirageofdeceit

I've only read the first few posts, and the last posts on this page, so forgive me if I miss something etc.. but there are a few important points I'd like to raise:

You need to read every post. That way you won't be asking questions that have been thoroughly and completely answered. Thanks.

Or not and not know what's going on, your choice. You were asking what I'm arguing re: fakery in the animation and CSV file. The animation is flat wrong, even flatter than I at first thought, and it has NO traceable NTSB paper trail. The CSV however matches on most points the official story, except things like the end altitude, etc... and the NTSB DID make a CSV attachment that I can't find ind. and it had a different name. The mag bearing at least is accurate with the physical avidence, unlike the animation. The CSV file has some evidentiary problems too, and I can't say whether it's authentic, in whole or part.

The main problem is the multiple FDR sources, the most traceable and verifiable, and common sense indicating a 60 real/70 mag bearing in the final moments, while the "smoking gun" animation shows a different path. Instead of pointing out the error, it's pushed as disproving the official story, being the ONLY true part from the FDR, a golden slip from the NTSB in sending it to them. Rather than pointing out the general discrepancy they pretend the FDR sources, including animation, are in agreement and show what the animation shows. WRONG. Only the animation shows this bearing with no backing. Other than the CIT witnesses, of course...

As to any fakery, IF the NTSB is responsible, they are guilty of disinfo to throw us off. But this has never been the story, and the Pilots have never been able to link it to them convincingly. Therefore, whether animation or CSV is faked, I suspect it was post-NTSB, if pre-Snowygrouch.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic Therefore, whether animation or CSV is faked, I suspect it was post-NTSB, if pre-Snowygrouch.

Does this mean it must have been snowygrouch's mailman that burned the animation onto the CD and twisted some of the csv data?

Originally posted by nick7261
So all the detailed commentary about the altitude trim settings, etc., is like analyzing a forgery of the Mona Lisa and then making conclusions about da Vinci based on the forgery.

Aside from the stretch of comparing the NTSB to DaVinci, great metaphor! You can learn a lot from a forgery of course, but not if you think it's real.

This is the question that not only hasn't been answered, but has been avoided by everybody associated with PF911T. When Jack Tripper wanted to stir up excitement about the upcoming PentaCon video release, he was posting here daily, and was even given his own forum.

When Caustic Logic pointed out that the NTSB video is wrong, there's been dead silence from the same people who claimed the NTSB video showed not only the wrong flight path, but the wrong altitude. Instead of focusing on the flight path, why didn't the P4911T just have a press conference and announce that the NTSB gave them contradictory data? That would have been headline news!

Instead they took one piece of the data, the animation, claimed that the animation is what accurately displayed the *real* flight path of FL 77, and then used the animation to peddle their video that "exposed" this nefarious conspiracy.

Well that answered itself. Why not open up all their data to careful scrutiny? 'Cause then they'd be revealed as frauds. Instead they bat around different readings, go on about how confusing it all is, what experts they are to read it all for us, and then tell us what they think we want to hear, ignoring whichever sources they need to, even as they call on the same source next week for a different contradictory theory.

There is at least one ltrustworthy file from 77's FDR: The NTSB authorized Specialist Factual report of Investigation PDF. www.ntsb.gov... - if you see something that doesn't match what's in here, it's probably NOT from the NTSB, which should leave you wondering where it DID come from. It's not that I trust gov. agencies, but they're the ONLY ones in a position to read the real data. Anyone else is guessing or worse...

Re: Lear

P.S. As somebody who's allowed your name to be placed on the PF911T website, you might want to look into this a little bit more closely. Frankly, I was dumbfounded that until yesterday you weren't even aware of the animation video.

I agree, it's a bit odd that he hasn't seen it. But whatever. He's not even on this sidewalk, so no need to witness more painfully embarrassing sidesteping.

Originally posted by Boone 870
Nick... 911myths.com has a link to another NTSB flight 77 animation. It's under the "whats new" section. You'll notice that there's a reference about the jerf forum, I dug around over there and found the thread five or six pages back in the conspiracy theories sub-forums. I don't know if it is what you're looking for but hopefully so and there's a little history about how and why he has the information. I'm pretty sure that CL has already posted the video in this thread.

Thanks for the tip Boone, and this looks like something new.

24th May: A JREF forum contributor sent an FOIA request to the NTSB asking for the Flight 77 animation, and received it today on a DVD. He's already made it available for download via Torrent, and you can find it here. Beware, though, this is the full, high-quality animation and is 3.26 GB in size.

www.911myths.com...
IF it is the same animation we've been gnashing our teeth over and verifiably from the NTSB I'm gonna # myself. But we follow the facts. I'm working on getting some views or something to see if this is the same or more like the vid shown by the 911 Comm in 2004 (there is at least this other animation I forgot about, right mag heading re the Citgo, better rendered, and prob NTSB). No copies of it floating around, but shown in PBB for comparison.

[edit on 3-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

[edit on 3-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by nick7261

Originally posted by Caustic Logic Therefore, whether animation or CSV is faked, I suspect it was post-NTSB, if pre-Snowygrouch.

Does this mean it must have been snowygrouch's mailman that burned the animation onto the CD and twisted some of the csv data?

The "if" was just in case he's not a fraud himself but just being toyed with. I dunno. Probably not pre-SG.
And just to clarify, the CSV file is actually from the Pilots if I'm not mistaken. Snowygrouch got the "Flight path study" on CDR that became the animation on DVD, "Undertow" got the "Specialists Factual report" with attached CSV that became the CSV we have. Similar process, both possible frauds... I'm still undecided on the CSV.

Trying to play the new animation in a torrent, something I haven't tried yet. Reports due based on any news...

I think the question is nowing this, what to do. Make it as visual to as many individualls as possible because the stakes are to high.

A New wrinkle!

I hate not being online enough. I just now put this all together. Boone's video linked to is the one obtained independently from a JREF member via FOIA from the NTSB. I'm reading the thread about that right now.
FOIA response recieved May 24, discussion, congrats on undercutting the Pilots, but man it's huge and slow to download, talk of getting it on Google and aggressively seeding it.
video Posted May 26.
Same green-n-purple cartoon, same too-north path, same GMT timestamp (explicitly apologized for by the NTSB no less!) Even the additional info - CSVs etc, all bear the names on the Pilot's documents perfectly, tho a DVD is now included in the packet to explain the animation's fitting.

So, looking for this new NTSB released vid, I"ve already seen it, and it's what we've been going on about! I have not actually soiled myself, however.

As I said, we go where the facts go. But fact is, I sense something odd with this story too. I know we're not supposed to link to other forums or whatever, but for research purposes I feel I must.
forums.randi.org...
So either the NTSB is hoaxing us with this, or the hoax just took on board another conspirator who's apparently been reading my works. I'm too egocentric to judge fairly. Is the NTSB yanking people around? That's also quite interesting if verifiable.

We need microscopes! Stat!

Whaddya think, guys? I need to sleep as soon as I possibly can.

[edit on 3-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by Caustic Logic

So, looking for this new NTSB released vid, I"ve already seen it, and it's what we've been going on about! I have not actually soiled myself, however.

I guess the only answer at this point is to send an FOIA request yourself. There's no way to tell if SLOB isn't snowygrouch's mailman. What's interesting is that the animation is on it's own disc and therefore can never be tied directly to the csv file if they don't match.

Maybe I'll set up a meeting with my local congressman to have HIM do the FOIA request so when he gets the information sent to him, there can be no accusations of manipulation of the data after receipt of the package.

If the animation is really from the NTSB it means that somebody on the inside is sending out falsified FL 77 flight path data. I guess the question is why?




[edit on 3-6-2007 by nick7261]

I think Nick is right. The only way we're going to find this out is to do a FOIA ourselves. I skimmed through your link, but it was way late at the time, and then my wife came online, so all this had to stop.

I'm having my knee surgery tomorrow, so I probably won't be able to help much out for the next week or so, but I'll be following things to see where they lead to now.

IF I had nothing else to go on, just what's seen up front, I'd guess another fraudster. Ex: They now aplogize for the wrong timestamp (GMT displayed as EDT), but cannot fix it, and as far as I see, they did not apologize for the WRONG FLIGHT PATH and ALTITUDE.

Now if these things all came to "SLOB" in the mail, we finally have the animation and the CSV not on the same disc but at least in the same package.
And even without the CSV, a screen cap from the animation is all that's needed to show NTSB contradictions - how on earth is THAT pictured path consistent with THAT displayed mag bearing? Answer: it is not.

Clearly it's time; the guys who allegedly sent these packets need to be cotacted for their end of the story. It will be done by me at least, this week.
I think if someone explains to them what this is doing, and with their name attached, they will want to clear it up. We'll see. If they dodge consistently, (and I won't give up easily) it will look bad - either they have been sending these out but refuse to verify, or they didn't bit are trying to keep the issue confused. Neither of these is in the NTSB's mandate and they will at least be word-flogged over it if so.

And we'll see from there.

Originally posted by nick7261

However, this is where Caustic unraveled the whole mess. For FL 77 to come in north of the Citgo with a heading that actually matched the video, the true heading would have been 80 degrees. However, the magnetic heading of 70 which is shown on the video, and shown in the csv file corresponds to a true heading of *60* degrees. This puts the flight path even further SOUTH of the Citgo, not north. (Check out the posts I put up in this thread with the graphics.)

Talk about a mess! Let me respectfully suggest that neither you or CL have any idea what you are talking about concerning magnetic heading and true heading. I tried to make it clear in my post but obviously have failed miserably.

You are mixing apples and oranges and potatoes and calling it carrot juice. From what I am able to figure out here CL is using the term "true heading" erroneously. True heading is magnetic heading less westerly variation or plus easterly variation. True heading should not enter into this debate as it is not relevent or germaine to the issue.

You need to stick with magnetic heading and forget 'true heading', we are not concerned with 'true heading'.

Now from what I understand the magnetic heading to the Pentagon from north of the Citgo would have been 080 degrees magnetic. The heading over the light poles to the Pentagon 070 magnetic.

If someone wanted the FDR to portray an airplane flying over through the light poles they would have faked a magnetic heading of 070 on the tabular data whether or not it was 080 or whatever.

No, I did not get into the question of where the video or anything else came from. What I was trying to do was explain what the terms meant so that those who really cared could dilly dally around with them at their leisure but not at the expense of misrepresenting what the terms of 'true' heading and 'magnetic' heading really meant.

When I got through reading CL's posts I thought to myself, "There is nothing here that can't be fixed with 120 hours of basic aviation navigation ground school". CL got so deep into mxing it up that I even got confused and heck...I was a pilot who taught navigation!!!

Your post "For FL 77 to come in north of the Citgo with a heading that actually matched the video, the true heading would have been 80 degrees. However, the magnetic heading of 70 which is shown on the video, and shown in the csv file corresponds to a true heading of *60* degrees. This puts the flight path even further SOUTH of the Citgo, not north," is so misleading and so inaccurate its downright discouraging.

I'm not even sure I want to help you guys sort this out but if you want my help you are going to have to throw away the term 'true' heading and start using 'magnetic' and or 'correct' heading. There is no reason to use true especially when you do not even know what it means.

Although I have been retired for 6 years I still consider myself an expert aviator and navigator and I will help you if that is what you desire. If you wish to continue wallowing in your own gobbledegook...be my guest.