Pentagon "NTSB animation" is wrong!

It is clear the NTSB animation headings are correct/accurate in the beginning of flight - we agree.

We also agree the NTSB animation was altered throughout the flight by 20 degrees - trimming that 20 degrees off the heading indicator.

Why did they trim that 20 degrees? What was the motive?

Well, what is the approach when you line up the 'trimmed', invalid - 70 degree heading? Answer. - it almost lines up with the physical damage. It does not line up perfectly.

You have to ask yourself.. Why would information provided by a govt agency alter their data from a correct reading at departure to an invalid reading at end of data?

And this my friend.. is the exact questions we have been trying to get answers for from the NTSB and FBI. So far they both refuse to answer.

They also omitted the altimeter being set on descent in the animation (as compared to the Baro Cor column in the csv file which shows it being set), because if they did set the altimeter in the animation it would show 480 feet at end of data, 1 second prior to reported imapct, above the light poles. Even the average layman would raise an eyebrow when seeing that.

Instead (thinknig from a govt agency standpoint), omit the altimeter setting.. show 180 feet. And let them duke it out on the net while refusing to comment.

Can ya see whats going on here yet?

Originally posted by johndoex

We also agree the NTSB animation was altered throughout the flight by 20 degrees - trimming that 20 degrees off the heading indicator.

I'm not sure that anybody agrees that the heading indicator was "trimmed" 20 degrees.

Why did they trim that 20 degrees? What was the motive?

Well, what is the approach when you line up the 'trimmed', invalid - 70 degree heading? Answer. - it almost lines up with the physical damage. It does not line up perfectly.

What is your point of reference for this claim? It seems as if you're starting with an assumption that the north-of-Citgo path is correct, and any data that varies from this must be incorrect. Why?

They also omitted the altimeter being set on descent in the animation (as compared to the Baro Cor column in the csv file which shows it being set), because if they did set the altimeter in the animation it would show 480 feet at end of data, 1 second prior to reported imapct, above the light poles. Even the average layman would raise an eyebrow when seeing that.

Instead (thinknig from a govt agency standpoint), omit the altimeter setting.. show 180 feet. And let them duke it out on the net while refusing to comment.

Can ya see whats going on here yet?

This is where this entire argument falls flat. You have two sets of information, the animation file and the csv file, both of which you claim are falsified in some way. So if they're both fake then how can you use either as evidence of anything that *really* happened? And more importantly, if the csv file and the animation don't match, this fact should be the BIG story, not any detail of what the data contains.

Also, how is it that you concluded that the information was falsified by the NTSB or FBI when there is no solid evidence that the information even originated with the NTSB? Until you can document with 100% certainty that the animation and the csv actually came from the NTSB don't you think it's a bit irresponsible to be claiming these as evidence of a government conspiracy of some sort?

Originally posted by nick7261

I'm not sure that anybody agrees that the heading indicator was "trimmed" 20 degrees.

This is fact. See links/work provided on previous page.

What is your point of reference for this claim? It seems as if you're starting with an assumption that the north-of-Citgo path is correct, and any data that varies from this must be incorrect. Why?

Read the other thread. Its there. Including a picture of the compass and how it doesnt line up. CL, please help him out here. Isnt Nick the guy who also thinks we fabricated the animation as a hoax and "claim" it came from the NTSB? Fact Nick. .the animation came from NTSB.

This is where this entire argument falls flat. You have two sets of information, the animation file and the csv file, both of which you claim are falsified in some way. So if they're both fake then how can you use either as evidence of anything that *really* happened? And more importantly, if the csv file and the animation don't match, this fact should be the BIG story, not any detail of what the data contains.

Who is saying we are using this as "what really happened". Have you read any of our research or even press release? Obviously you havent.

Here, i'll make it simple for you.

"The NTSB data./information does not support the govt story in many areas. We have tried to get answers from the NTSB and FBI. They refuse to answer. "

That is our official statement. Try not to misquote our organization.

Also, how is it that you concluded that the information was falsified by the NTSB or FBI when there is no solid evidence that the information even originated with the NTSB? Until you can document with 100% certainty that the animation and the csv actually came from the NTSB don't you think it's a bit irresponsible to be claiming these as evidence of a government conspiracy of some sort?

CL, want to help Nick out here? It seems he doesnt like to do his research...

Here Nick.. i'll help you out just this once...





But perhaps you will think that letter is fake too Nick? 202-314-6000. Put that number into google.. then call it.

Then.. if you're really feeling brave and want facts.. try here to get your very own animation.. the same as we have...
www.ntsb.gov...

Now Nick.. try not to make up too many more tales without doing your research. It may backfire..

by the way.. the csv file and animation match in amny parameters perfectly, the only times they do not match is during blantant cover-up's as described

Cheers!
Rob

(now does everyone realize why we dont want to waste out time debating on the net?)


edit: fix quote format


[edit on 4-6-2007 by johndoex]

Originally posted by johndoex

"The NTSB data./information does not support the govt story in many areas. We have tried to get answers from the NTSB and FBI. They refuse to answer. "

That is our official statement. Try not to misquote our organization.

Then why are you still selling Pandora's Black Box, a video which suggests that FL 77 missed the light poles and flew over the Pentagon, based only on the animation that you admit is fake?

CL, want to help Nick out here? It seems he doesnt like to do his research...

Here Nick.. i'll help you out just this once...

But perhaps you will think that letter is fake too Nick? 202-314-6000. Put that number into google.. then call it.

You're kidding, right?

How does a scanned letter connect conclusively to the content of the animation or the csv file that you claim came with the letter? There's a huge gap in your logic. The fact that you ignore this gap really doesn't lend to your credibility. You're expecting people to simply trust you on blind faith that the animation you published is what the NTSB sent.

Then.. if you're really feeling brave and want facts.. try here to get your very own animation.. the same as we have...
www.ntsb.gov...

Now Nick.. try not to make up too many more tales without doing your research. It may backfire..

Hey, I'm not the one selling videos based on an animation that I also am claiming doesn't accurately reflect FL 77's flight path. The entire foundation of Pandora's Black Box is wrong by your own admission, and yet you cherry pick the part of the animation that you decided would help sell the fly-over and north-of-Citgo claims. Maybe that's what is going to backfire.

by the way.. the csv file and animation match in amny parameters perfectly, the only times they do not match is during blantant cover-up's as described

Then why isn't this your BIG story, Rob? It seems to me that if you could *REALLY* authenticate the animation and csv coming from the NTSB this alone would be your smoking gun. Your entire argument of using an incorrect animation to prove an incorrect flight path is totally bogus. However, if you would argue that the NTSB animation and csv files are inconsitent with each other, then you'd have something. Only problem is that you can't prove that the animation or csv came from the NTSB. If you could, I was guess you would have done so already.

(now does everyone realize why we dont want to waste out time debating on the net?)

I'm sure by the time this is over everybody will understand exactly why you don't waste your time debating on the net.

If you truly could document that the faked animation and csv files came from the NTSB then the big story would be that the NTSB information was proven to be fabricated, not that the altimeter trims weren't set right. Pandora's Black Box is based on an animation you say is wrong. I'm not sure how you can defend against that claim.

So what exactly is the ultimate claim that Pilots for 9/11 Truth is trying to make at this point? All the data from the NTSB that matches the official story is wrong, but the data that matches the PentaCon witnesses and the north-of-Citgo and Pentagon flyover is right?

[edit on 4-6-2007 by nick7261]

Nick thinks the letter is fake but wont try to call the NTSB and/or fill out his own FOIA. I guess there is only so much you can do for Conspiracy Theorists.


Nick, we never said the NTSB data is fake. We said it does not support the govt story and certain parameters have been altered. One was altered to show a southern flight path. The other was to make the aircraft appear lower than actual (or True Altitude). The NTSB claims it is from AA77. It does not support the govt story. You want to believe we fabricated the data and it didnt come from the NTSB. You refuse to get your own to cross check it. You refuse to even go read and/or click links. You refuse to call the NTSB and/or do your own research. I dont know what to tell you my friend.

PBB2 covers this in detail as well as many other anomolies with the govt story that do not pertain to the NTSB supplied data. It is clear you havent watched the film. We will continue to accept donations to our organization and give out the DVD in exchange. We continue to have it up on google and youtube for those who cannot afford a small donation or are unwillling.

And to really get your panties in a bind.. Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Three - Flight of United 93 is on its way out soon.. Here is the trailer...


z9.invisionfree.com...

... based on the UA93 Animation also from the NTSB. But i bet you'll rather believe that is 'fake' too.. a "hoax" animation we fabricated.. without calling the NTSB or gettting your own animation to verify...

Not much i can do about your apathy my friend. Sorry.

I'll offer the same i did for CL before we realized we agreed on most aspects. Anytime you would like to debate, please feel free to email us to work out the details and venue. We find it rather mundane to repeat research all over the net for those who refuse to do their own.

Cheers!
Rob

Originally posted by johndoex

I'll offer the same i did for CL before we realized we agreed on most aspects. Anytime you would like to debate, please feel free to email us to work out the details and venue. We find it rather mundane to repeat research all over the net for those who refuse to do their own.

Cheers!
Rob

Thanks for taking the time to post here Rob.

I appreciate the time that MOD, CL, Nick and the others have put into this. We all would like to know some answers.

The fact that they will not take you up on your challenge speaks volumes.

Although the perps of 911 were very well organized they did make a few blunders and hopefully that, eventually, will be their undoing.

I would personally like to say that I find this obsession with altitude and heading just that...obsession. 10 degrees? 20 degrees? Noth? South? True headings? Magnetic headings? All of this, in my opinon is obfuscation pure and simple. Hey guys! Here is the bottom line. No Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon so the question is: Who cares what the altitude during the last few seconds was? Who cares what NTSB did or didn't say? It was all faked anyway.

You try to blame P4911 for posting erroneous information. Erroneous information compared to what? This is a typical search for the guilty and punishment of the innocent.

Probably a holograph was used to fake the Boeing 757 on approach to the Pentagon and a predator or other kind of small missile carrying craft did the damage. The flight recorder probably came out of a Boeing 757 that flew the exact same profile at some other place and some other time by professional pilots pretending to be hijackers. A hijacker resetting the altimeters at FL180? Give me a BREAK!

Oh wait!!! I know!!!! It couldn't have been a holograph because people saw it clearly!!!

Originally posted by johndoex
...You refuse to get your own to cross check it. You refuse to even go read and/or click links. You refuse to call the NTSB and/or do your own research. I dont know what to tell you my friend.

...It might take awhile for all this to sync-in.

Props to P4911T.

Originally posted by johndoex
Nick thinks the letter is fake but wont try to call the NTSB and/or fill out his own FOIA. I guess there is only so much you can do for Conspiracy Theorists.

This statement exemplifies your pattern of lying. I never said I thought the letter was fake. You simply made this up. Calling the NTSB isn't going to result in them telling me what they sent on the disc you received. You have no idea whether or not I made an FOIA request, do you?

Yet you have no problem making these statements.

It seems that since you can't debate the facts, all you have left is to try to make me look bad by lying about me. Sorry, this isn't going to work.

Nick, we never said the NTSB data is fake. We said it does not support the govt story and certain parameters have been altered.

Well guess what Rob, saying that certain parameters were altered leaves your entire argument collapsing faster that WTC7. What you're implying is that the rest of the data is the *REAL* data, but somehow you know which data is the altered data. In the real world this type of reasoning doesn't fly.

One was altered to show a southern flight path. The other was to make the aircraft appear lower than actual (or True Altitude). The NTSB claims it is from AA77.

Until you can authenticate the the animation and csv came from the NTSB then it's only you making the claims, not the NTSB.

You want to believe we fabricated the data and it didnt come from the NTSB.

No, this is another outright lie. I don't know where the data came from. I never said I did. What I'm saying is that scanning a letter that references animations doesn't authenticate that the animations you claim were from the NTSB were really from the NTSB. Like I said before, the fact that you even *think* that posting such a letter verifies anything really speaks volumes about your credibility. If you had any intellectual honesty about the matter, you would admit that just putting up the letter doesn't prove the animation you uploaded was the same animation that you claim came from the NTSB.

You refuse to get your own to cross check it. You refuse to even go read and/or click links. You refuse to call the NTSB and/or do your own research. I dont know what to tell you my friend.

This isn't about me, or the research I've done. It's about you and the claims you're making. You're claiming the U.S. government sent you flight data from Flight 77 that was altered to cover-up the *real* flight path going into the Pentagon. That's a pretty hefty claim if true. And you expect to make this type of claim and have people take your word for it that the animation you posted is the actual animation that came from the NTSB.

In fact, if what you are claiming is true, you are holding evidence of a criminal conspiracy by the U.S. government. Have you turned this over to any authorities? Contact a congressman? Contact anybody from the FBI? How about going to the Unitied Nations with it?

No, it looks like all you've done with it make a silly video that you're peddling on YouTube and Google.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that I can prove P49T edited the animation. You might want to think about this before you continue with your personal attacks on me. Maybe I'm wrong about being able to prove that the animation was edited, or maybe you don't care because you'll just find another excuse.

PBB2 covers this in detail as well as many other anomolies with the govt story that do not pertain to the NTSB supplied data. It is clear you havent watched the film.

Another lie. We're seeing a pattern here. If you can be so careless with the truth here, what would make anybody think you wouldn't be careless with the truth when you're trying to peddle your movies?

We will continue to accept donations to our organization and give out the DVD in exchange. We continue to have it up on google and youtube for those who cannot afford a small donation or are unwillling.

By your own admission the videos are based on altered data. You trot out conclusions about Flight 77's final approach to the Pentagon and use an animation that you KNOW is not true to support your claim. This is pretty much the definition of fraud. You do realize that the U.S. is at war, and that fabricating propaganda to undermine the U.S. in a time of war is probably a federal felony.

You're really painting yourself into a corner here. For your sake, I hope your claims about the animation being from the NTSB are true. Otherwise, you might be arrested by the Feds before this is over.

And to really get your panties in a bind.. Pandora's Black Box - Chapter Three - Flight of United 93 is on its way out soon.. Here is the trailer...

z9.invisionfree.com...

Isn't spamming the ATS board to promote selling your own product against the TOS?

I'll offer the same i did for CL before we realized we agreed on most aspects. Anytime you would like to debate, please feel free to email us to work out the details and venue. We find it rather mundane to repeat research all over the net for those who refuse to do their own.

Rob, you're really in no position to offer anything. You're the one making some very serious allegations against the U.S. government intentionally conspiring to cover-up the truth behind the murders of those on board Flight 77 and at the Pentagon on 9/11. If your animation really was sent to you by the NTSB, then I will congratulate you on being the person who broke open the whole 9/11 conspiracy case.

If it turns out the animation you used in Pandora's Black Box wasn't sent by the NTSB, then you'll be facing a different future.

Best of luck.

Originally posted by johnlear
I appreciate the time that MOD, CL, Nick and the others have put into this. We all would like to know some answers.

The fact that they will not take you up on your challenge speaks volumes.

John, I would say that the fact that you weren't even aware of the animation video until a couple of days ago also speaks volumes, as does your latest attempt to shuffle all the details of the animation and csv file under the proverbial rug.

I'll wait until I get my information packet from the NTSB before I enter into a debate about where the data came from.

You try to blame P4911 for posting erroneous information. Erroneous information compared to what? This is a typical search for the guilty and punishment of the innocent.

No, you've got this entirely, 100% backwards.

The blame on P49T centers around P49T promoting a video and a theory, and substantiating that theory with an animation video that they admit has been altered.

This is really simple:

You can't claim the animation shows Flight 77 flying over the Pentagon, and north of the Citgo gas station, and substantiate your argument with an animation video that you claim has been altered. This is what P49T has done, and continues to do.

Further, if P49T has in their possession data that was sent by the NTSB, and the P49T can prove it came from the NTSB, and also prove that the data is internally inconsitent and was altered, then it DOESN'T MATTER what the data says. The BIG story would be that the NTSB sent altered data files, not the flight path that the data shows.

In fact, this is the part that's totally backwards. P49T is in effect saying that the animation that was *altered* shows the *wrong* flight path. If the animation was NOT altered and it showed the wrong flight path, then they'd have a story.

Originally posted by nick7261

John, I would say that the fact that you weren't even aware of the animation video until a couple of days ago also speaks volumes, as does your latest attempt to shuffle all the details of the animation and csv file under the proverbial rug.

I'll wait until I get my information packet from the NTSB before I enter into a debate about where the data came from.

Well, all the best of luck to you Nick. I know that both of us only want the truth. Thanks for your post.

Originally posted by johndoex
...You refuse to get your own to cross check it. You refuse to even go read and/or click links. You refuse to call the NTSB and/or do your own research. I dont know what to tell you my friend.

Originally posted by scrapple
...It might take awhile for all this to sync-in.

Props to P4911T.

Just to let you know, the above statements you quoted from Rob's post are all untrue. Even more to the point, Rob had no idea whether these things he's claimed are true or not, yet he made the accusations anyway simply as an attempt to avoid the facts and try to make me look bad.

So why the props to P4911T?

They're selling a video based on an animation that they admit has been altered. How could an altered flight animation video provide any probative value into Flight 77's final approach at the Pentagon? The video shows north-of-the-Citgo and the wrong altitude, but according to P49T the video was altered. So what's that prove?

@John Lear: thanks for clearing up the left/right thing; I get it bass ackwards sometimes.

@nick: Great post there!

I wish I had more time to delve into this stuff more.

I look forward to reading what you have to say about your FOIA request and info.

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit
@John Lear: thanks for clearing up the left/right thing; I get it bass ackwards sometimes.

@nick: Great post there!

I wish I had more time to delve into this stuff more.

I look forward to reading what you have to say about your FOIA request and info.

Thanks! I'm in the midst of processing my FOIA request. I will also have a website site up later this week where anybody can enter their information, and the site will spit out the a personalized FOIA request for you.

This is going to be the first step in getting to the truth.

nick

What could p49t post that would satisfy you that the animation that formed the basis of their videos came from the NTSB?

ETA: if you want more people to apply for via the FOIA, let me know - I'd be happy to do it.

[edit on 4-6-2007 by coughymachine]

Hey John,

Good to see you. Call me sometime, we'll catch up. We got the UA93 Animation recently. I'll give you the run-down. Remember though... we dont offer theory under the pilotsfor911truth.org banner..

(not that you are, just a reminder)

Nick, you dont deserve much of a reply at this point... you just dont 'get it'.. watch the film, do proper research and in time, maybe you will. Contact us if you want to debate.

Ciao folks!
Rob

typos.



[edit on 4-6-2007 by johndoex]

Originally posted by Nick -

If your animation really was sent to you by the NTSB, then I will congratulate you on being the person who broke open the whole 9/11 conspiracy case.

Quoted for posterity. Everyone please remind Nick of the above statement when he gets his own Animation from the NTSB and finds out it cross checks with our animation/film. Although im sure Nick wll say someone intercepted his mail between NTSB HQ and his house and replaced the real NTSB animation with the 'fake animation' that we fabricated and mailed it to him in an NTSB envelope with NTSB contacts on an NTSB letterhead.

lol

edited for typos


[edit on 4-6-2007 by johndoex]

Originally posted by johndoex

Originally posted by Nick -

If your animation really was sent to you by the NTSB, then I will congratulate you on being the person who broke open the whole 9/11 conspiracy case.

Quoted for posterity. Everyone please remind Nick of the above statement when he gets his own Animation from the NTSB and finds out it cross checks with our animation/film. Although im sure Nick wll say someone intercepted his mail between NTSB HQ and his house and replaced the real NTSB animation with the 'fake animation' that we fabricated and mailed it to him in an NTSB envelope with NTSB contacts on an NTSB letterhead.

Rob,

Quite the contrary. I'll be the first to post here when I get the CDs from the NTSB that confirm your video. I am waiting for a call back from my Congressman's office because I want him involved as well. You see, it's going to be important to document the chain of custody when the NTSB sends the video (unlike what you did). If my Congressmen gets the video sent directly to his office, he'll be able to authenticate the chain of custody, and pursue a Congressional inquiry into the NTSB if the video matches what you claim it does.

What might be helpful is if you could post a copy of the exact letter that you sent for your FOIA request so that there can be no mistake about what I'm asking for. The name and address of the contact at the NTSB would also be helpful.

As for not deserving a reply, I guess that's your way of dodging the points I've raised:

a) You haven't documented the source of the animation of csv files you quote to support your FL 77 flight path allegations,

b) You are using admittedly altered data to support your FL 77 flight path allegations, and

c) You are well aware that the animation video was altered at some point between the NTSB and the Pandora's Black Box video which you are selling. Or are you denying this?

Originally posted by nick7261


So why the props to P4911T?

It's OK really!! You’re getting all tweaked at possibility.
Hypothetically can you accept that,

1) 'Animation' is a code driven 3D representation of black box info
2) Black box info came from the Flight 77 on 911
3) NTSB will hand you duplicate ‘animation’ product on request

What’s the problem?

1) P4911T NTSB Animation ‘matches’ known physical parameters prior to takeoff.
 Altitude and orientation on known runway.
2) Animation output is ‘out of whack’ by the time of supposed Pentagon strike

I expect an animation’s coded performance to follow input data throughout the simulation. (I also feel animation and simulation should be swapped in that sentence but that’s me)

Bottom-line this animation fails to the match data set with total continuity.

So I am going to trust P4911T and say ‘they’ didn’t manipulate crv(?) info to produce a false animation that confirms North CITGO eye witnesses and contradicts government claim. If they did then I’ve been duped – wouldn’t be the first time.

As Mr. Lear suggested – numbers are just that. It’s their expected conformity to known physical parameters and proceedures - in simulation which makes the issue interesting IMO.

Originally posted by coughymachine
nick

What could p49t post that would satisfy you that the animation that formed the basis of their videos came from the NTSB?

ETA: if you want more people to apply for via the FOIA, let me know - I'd be happy to do it.

[edit on 4-6-2007 by coughymachine]

Unfortunately, there is nothing the P49T can provide at this point that would verify the chain of custody for what they received from the NTSB. It is somewhat surprising that the P49T didn't think of this when requesting the information from the NTSB. The minute they opened the envelope in the privacy of their office/home there is no way of knowing what was contained in the envelope vs. whether or not they made their own animation and claimed it was what the NTSB sent.

I believe animations for FL 77 and FL 93 were shown during the 9/11 Commission hearings, so it's no smoking gun or evidence of anything in particular that P49T actually received an animation video on disc. The P49T claim that the animation was doctored to show a 70 degree instrument heading to match the official story, but was left showing a visual flight path north of the Citgo seems incredibly difficult to imagine. The fact that they failed to even mention this little tidbit in Pandora's Black Box is inexplicable.

If the animation video is really from the NTSB, then Rob and the P49T have THE smoking gun that shows a government conspiracy to cover-up the truth of 9/11.

Somehow the fact that all they've done with this data was make a tabloid-like video to sell online tells me that they wouldn't be able to verify it's source if pressed. Actually, you've seen their attempts to verify the source of the animation and it's almost laughable. A copy of a letter from the NTSB mentioning an animation video does not mean it's the same video that they are claiming came from the NTSB.

The fact that are trying to portray this as some sort of verification rather than being honest and saying there's no way to connect the video to the letter doesn't do much for their credibility.

Originally posted by johndoex

Nick, you dont deserve much of a reply at this point... you just dont 'get it'.. watch the film, do proper research and in time, maybe you will. Contact us if you want to debate.

By the way, do you have a link to the P49T press release that announced that you discovered the NTSB animation video and the csv file were "altered?" If so, can you please post it here. I've looked for it but couldn't find it.