Pentagon "NTSB animation" is wrong!

Good catch CM. I will try to check that out among my other research to put together their confusing end of the story. I just got a blog comment from Snowygrouch, or someone claiming to be so, so it looks like I have his attention to ask questions. I hate things like that. Now I have one more thing to think about.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Good catch CM. I will try to check that out among my other research to put together their confusing end of the story. I just got a blog comment from Snowygrouch, or someone claiming to be so, so it looks like I have his attention to ask questions. I hate things like that. Now I have one more thing to think about.

Personally, I would call out Snowygrouch and JT on their entire story at this point. Take a BIG step back and look at the whole story. Snowygrouch makes a FOIA request to the NTSB and he's the only person on the planet who they decide to slip the *real* animation to? Either he's going to go down in history as the person who broke open the 9/11 government conspiracy, or he's going to go down looking like a fraud.

At best, the failure for JT or PF911T to mention that the FDR csv file matches nicely with the official story and *not* with their animation makes them all look suspect.

Well they're saying these problems are all obvious and well explained elsewhere. I have to see... so for now I am stepping back, and seeing that, and that I need to get my bearings before charging ahead, For God's sake, I started this whole thing forgetting about mag north and only by luck (??) the 10 degree diff didn't make the animation true and me look like an ass myself.

You can see his comment - if it is him (??) - in the comments section of my blog posting of the OP
I'll be posting my reply there later tonight.

That lines up with everything I've found. The 30.21 was at takeoff. That's the reading the tower gave the pilots before departure. The 29.92 is the standard for 18,000+, then the 30.23 is what Hani Hanjour reset it to after he was in control of the plane.

This is what puzzles me about that documentary that I watched on the internet. They highlight the fact that the pressure reading wasn't reset when descending through 18,000 feet.....and that's it. They don't mention anything about this being reset AT ALL !!!

Why is this ? Are they deliberately trying to mislead the viewers, in an attempt to further their own agenda ?

I have, for my sins, been watching the full version of the ‘reconstruction’. I have a couple of observations concerning the discussion at hand (i.e. headings) and, more generally, flight procedure.

As well as the ‘reconstruction’, I’ve referred to the Air Traffic Control Recording for Flight 77

Okay, first. FL77 sits on runway 30 at Dulles at a 300 degree heading. Shortly after take-off at 12:20:26 UCT, it is advised by Local Control West (LCW) to ‘turn left heading two seven zero’. FL77 performs this manoeuvre and the dial does indeed read 270 degrees. The implication here is that the 300 degree reading on runway 30 is correct.

Does this fit with what you guys have found?



The next points are more about procedure.

At 12:23:23, North Departure (ND) makes its final communication with FL77 before handing-off to North High (NH). FL77’s heading is 271. By 12:23:40, and before NH makes its first communication, FL77 is heading 275 and this increase to 279/80 over the next few minutes. There is no instruction from either ND or NH to adjust the heading. Is this 8/9 degree adjustment within the pilot’s margin of error?

Is this routine as well? At 12:25:57, Sector 5 Radar (O5R) instructs FL77 to ‘climb and maintain flight level two seven zero’. What does this ‘two seven zero’ refer to? Is it altitude or heading? I’m assuming the former. But FL77 was still around 13,000, having not even reached the altitude given to it by NH two minutes earlier at 12:23:47 (17,000). Is this major overlapping of altitude instructions typical?

But the one that seems most odd is this.

Sector 3 Radar (O3R) makes its first communication with FL77 at 12:31:21. It instructs FL77 to ‘climb maintain level flight two niner zero’. FL77 is heading 278 degrees at the time. Nearly three minutes later (why the delay?), at 12:34:14, O3R instructs FL77 to ‘turn twenty degrees right vector for your climb’. FL77 executes the manoeuvre and ends up heading 298 degrees.

Now here’s what I don’t understand. First, O3R makes a mistake in its instruction at 12:37:31. It says:

American seventy seven recleared direct Charleston climb maintain cor – correction recleared direct Henderson sir climb maintain flight level three niner zero

At 12:37:39 FL77 requests ‘three five zero as final’ (why would he request that?) and had to repeat the request at 12:37:55. Whilst this exchange is happening, FL begins a left turn as it continues to climb. At 12:39:09, FL77 is heading at 272 degrees – a change of 26 degrees. O3R did not request this and FL77 did not announce it. They just did it. If the earlier 'spontaneous' 8/9 degree adjustment was okay, what about this 26 degree one?

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
Well they're saying these problems are all obvious and well explained elsewhere. I have to see... so for now I am stepping back, and seeing that, and that I need to get my bearings before charging ahead, For God's sake, I started this whole thing forgetting about mag north and only by luck (??) the 10 degree diff didn't make the animation true and me look like an ass myself.

You can see his comment - if it is him (??) - in the comments section of my blog posting of the OP
I'll be posting my reply there later tonight.

That's quite an interesting blog comment left by SG. He's portraying this as if everybody was already aware of the csv file matching up with the official flight path. However, as you correctly pointed out, the entire animation and Pandora's BB was presented as if the animation was *constructed* from the csv. At least that's the impression I got.

They certainly didn't point out that the csv didn't match the animation.

So now we have another deep mystery. Either SG and company are complete fruads, or there's a mole within the NTSB who secreted a video of the *real* flight path of FL 77 into the hands of SG, giving him the smoking gun to blow the 9/11 cover-up out of the water.

So the obvious question becomes this:

If the animation were actually from the NTSB, how did it come into existence? As you already know it stops just before the Pentagon is hit. So what's the implication of this? That the mole inside the NTSB snuck out the real animation but cut it off right before the plane flew over the Pentagon? Why not show the plane fly right over the Pentagon if their goal was to reveal this secret?

Or maybe SG's next door neighbor just played a practical joke on him and switched a home made flight path animation for the real animation when he saw the package arrive in SG's mail.

And at no time did you look like an ass. You're an amatuer investigator with no piloting background plugging away, looking for the truth. The PF911T profess to be the experts on the subject with insights beyond what a layperson would have, yet they failed to make clear that the csv didn't match the animation. Of course making a big deal of this might have detracted from the launch of their PentaCon video.

Sadly, this whole episode is going to blend in with the rest of the clouded mysteries of 9/11 with people arguing both sides for the next five years. It's now just woven into the fabric of the 9/11 mythology. The CTers will be referencing the animation for years to come, and the debunkers will be debunking it. Ironically, the "Truth Movement" has become a black hole that sucks in anything that looks like truth and spits it out the other side corrupted with half-truths, lies, misinterpratations, and pure fantasies.

Originally posted by coughymachine
The implication here is that the 300 degree reading on runway 30 is correct.

Does this fit with what you guys have found?

Yes, the 300 degree magnetic reading for runway 30 matches up with the google map. Also note that this 300 degree heading is the magnetic heading, and the true heading on the runway is 290.

Originally posted by coughymachine
I have, for my sins, been watching the full version of the ‘reconstruction’. I have a couple of observations concerning the discussion at hand (i.e. headings) and, more generally, flight procedure.

As well as the ‘reconstruction’, I’ve referred to the Air Traffic Control Recording for Flight 77

Okay, first. FL77 sits on runway 30 at Dulles at a 300 degree heading. Shortly after take-off at 12:20:26 UCT, it is advised by Local Control West (LCW) to ‘turn left heading two seven zero’. FL77 performs this manoeuvre and the dial does indeed read 270 degrees. The implication here is that the 300 degree reading on runway 30 is correct.

Does this fit with what you guys have found?



The next points are more about procedure.

At 12:23:23, North Departure (ND) makes its final communication with FL77 before handing-off to North High (NH). FL77’s heading is 271. By 12:23:40, and before NH makes its first communication, FL77 is heading 275 and this increase to 279/80 over the next few minutes. There is no instruction from either ND or NH to adjust the heading. Is this 8/9 degree adjustment within the pilot’s margin of error?

Is this routine as well? At 12:25:57, Sector 5 Radar (O5R) instructs FL77 to ‘climb and maintain flight level two seven zero’. What does this ‘two seven zero’ refer to? Is it altitude or heading? I’m assuming the former. But FL77 was still around 13,000, having not even reached the altitude given to it by NH two minutes earlier at 12:23:47 (17,000). Is this major overlapping of altitude instructions typical?

But the one that seems most odd is this.

Sector 3 Radar (O3R) makes its first communication with FL77 at 12:31:21. It instructs FL77 to ‘climb maintain level flight two niner zero’. FL77 is heading 278 degrees at the time. Nearly three minutes later (why the delay?), at 12:34:14, O3R instructs FL77 to ‘turn twenty degrees right vector for your climb’. FL77 executes the manoeuvre and ends up heading 298 degrees.

Now here’s what I don’t understand. First, O3R makes a mistake in its instruction at 12:37:31. It says:

American seventy seven recleared direct Charleston climb maintain cor – correction recleared direct Henderson sir climb maintain flight level three niner zero

At 12:37:39 FL77 requests ‘three five zero as final’ (why would he request that?) and had to repeat the request at 12:37:55. Whilst this exchange is happening, FL begins a left turn as it continues to climb. At 12:39:09, FL77 is heading at 272 degrees – a change of 26 degrees. O3R did not request this and FL77 did not announce it. They just did it. If the earlier 'spontaneous' 8/9 degree adjustment was okay, what about this 26 degree one?

Let me see if I can clear this up for you.

Runways use MAGNETIC headings for runway numbers. The number of the runway is the magnetic heading. Runway 30 is 300 degrees magnetic. After takeoff for city/noise clearance regulations the flight was told to turn left to 270, so they wouldn't go over the city too low.

Flight level refers to altitude. Flight level 270 is 27,000 feet. A plane is cleared to an altitude BELOW the altitude they're requesting, and then when it's safe, they're cleared to a higher altitude. For example, we'll call it Flight 123, will take off, and be cleared to 5000 feet. As he's climbing to that altitude, ATC will call and say "Flight 123, cleared to 13,000." So he'll keep climbing, then at some point when it's safe to go higher, they'll clear him higher even though he hasn't reached 13,000 yet. It's called a step climb IIRC.

Sector 3 cleared him to 29,000 but something was probably ahead of him on his current heading, so by turning him 20 degrees he kept him clear of traffic during his climb.

Flights request higher altitudes all the time. They may have heard a report from another plane at their altitude of turbulence, or for fuel economy. He thought that 35,000 would give a smoother ride, or the winds would be lighter up there so he'd get better fuel economy.

As for the "Henderson" that's the next checkpoint in his flight plan. They use checkpoints to know if they're on time, and in the right place. They give them names so they all know they're at the same one.

[edit on 5/31/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by coughymachine
At 12:23:23, North Departure (ND) makes its final communication with FL77 before handing-off to North High (NH). FL77’s heading is 271. By 12:23:40, and before NH makes its first communication, FL77 is heading 275 and this increase to 279/80 over the next few minutes. There is no instruction from either ND or NH to adjust the heading. Is this 8/9 degree adjustment within the pilot’s margin of error?

I've been looking for a good page to explain this one, and I think I found it. Aircraft use an system called VOR to navigate from point A to point B. It stands for VHF Omnidirectional Range navigation system.

Basically, you have radio stations along a flight path that broadcast two signals. One is constant and sends out in all directions. The second rotates around the station. The receiver on the plane receives both signals, sees the difference between the two, and interprets the difference as what's called a Radial. Radials are always headings. You set the radial you want on the dial, and it will show you if you are left or right, heading towards it or flying away from it. This makes navigation easier, especially if the aircraft is experiencing a compass error.

Compass errors can be caused by turbulence, acceleration/deceleration, climbing/descending, turning, etc. So it's possible that if they were climbing during this time the compass would read off while the plane was heading the correct direction. That would also explain why ATC didn't correct their heading.

Some more on VOR (Warning, VOR navigation is one of the hardest parts of flight training so it's VERY technical):
www.navfltsm.addr.com...
stoenworks.com...
www.roperld.com...

Originally posted by nick7261
That's quite an interesting blog comment left by SG. He's portraying this as if everybody was already aware of the csv file matching up with the official flight path. However, as you correctly pointed out, the entire animation and Pandora's BB was presented as if the animation was *constructed* from the csv. At least that's the impression I got.

They certainly didn't point out that the csv didn't match the animation.

Me too obviously. It's hard to tell a real fraudster from a dicrediting impersonator. They act a bit the same... but either way I'm waiting for a response.

If the animation were actually from the NTSB, how did it come into existence? As you already know it stops just before the Pentagon is hit. So what's the implication of this? That the mole inside the NTSB snuck out the real animation but cut it off right before the plane flew over the Pentagon? Why not show the plane fly right over the Pentagon if their goal was to reveal this secret?

Or maybe SG's next door neighbor just played a practical joke on him and switched a home made flight path animation for the real animation when he saw the package arrive in SG's mail.

The second one seems at least as plausible, and there are other even more likely explanations.

And at no time did you look like an ass. You're an amatuer investigator with no piloting background plugging away, looking for the truth. The PF911T profess to be the experts on the subject with insights beyond what a layperson would have, yet they failed to make clear that the csv didn't match the animation. Of course making a big deal of this might have detracted from the launch of their PentaCon video.

Thank you! I do try to keep my respectability and admit mistakes and learn. That can make all the difference.

Sadly, this whole episode is going to blend in with the rest of the clouded mysteries of 9/11 with people arguing both sides for the next five years.

Watching SG's speech, it was the same MO. They just have questions! But woe unto anyone who tries to answer them. The MO is to not enlighten the audience but to leave them confused, feeling "the whole thing is such a mess. It sure stinks. Gov't probably messed it all up." Then 9/11 Truth remains more emotinal, peretually confused and hamstrung when it comes to logical arguments. "Yeah, well there's this animation the NTSB made that shows... well, it's made by... well, it shows the plane... well, 9/11 is a lie! I just know it!" Smart people ignore their own supicions, seeing there's nothing solid to anchor to, and move on. And then yes, we keep wasting time arguing back and forth over something that's been solidly debunked.

Originally posted by Zaphod58Let me see if I can clear this up for you.

I think I'm clear on all of it except for this bit...

At 12:37:39 FL77 requests ‘three five zero as final’... and had to repeat the request at 12:37:55. Whilst this exchange is happening, FL begins a left turn as it continues to climb. At 12:39:09, FL77 is heading at 272 degrees – a change of 26 degrees. O3R did not request this and FL77 did not announce it. They just did it. If the earlier 'spontaneous' 8/9 degree adjustment was okay, what about this 26 degree one?

Apart from the earlier minor 8/9 degree discrepancy, all other variations in the heading were made as the result of an instruction from one of the ATCs. This one, however, was made without an instruction from an ATC and without an announcement from FL77. Surely the 26 degree discrepancy is too big to be explained by possible compass interference. Or are pilots at liberty to change heading within certain parameters?

If you've explained this earlier, forgive me, I missed it.

Remember the earlier instruction? They were told to "vector right 20 degrees" as they were performing their climb to flight level 290. That put them on a 298 heading. When they continued the step, and started climbing to flight level 350, they completed their turn back to their base course, which was 270. They hadn't completed the climb to flight level 290 at the time they requested 350 as their final altitude, but they still needed to be on a 270 heading.

Vectoring is just turning to go around something ahead of them. Either a thunderstorm, or another plane. As soon as they're clear of the obstacle they return to their base course, in this case 270.

A few points need to be addressed here.

One is the altimeter setting that Hani allegedly set descending through FL180. I belive this was faked because Hani could not possibly have remembered to reset the altimeter RIGHT AT FL180 because very few pilots can. There is just too much going on. Moreover according to the tabular FDR BOTH altimeters were reset within 1 second of each other. Now if there was only one pilot up front who set the other altimeter? Now if you say Hani then I would ask HOW? Its a pretty long reach over to the co-pilots altimeter but the question is WHY? Why would Hani set the co-pilots alitmeter and why would he even set his own. HE'S GOING TO CRASH. He doesn't need to reset it.

As to the argument that Hani was a rated commercial pilot and would have known to reset the altimter descending through FL180 I know of no records that he had ever, ever been in an airplane prior to 911 that was capable of climbing to FL180. Setting and resetting your altimeter, climbing and descending through FL180 is a habit that takes years to acquire.

As to the altimter setting that Hani allegedly set here is the problem. He set the altimter to Reagan International. How would he know what is was? He wasn't talking to anybody. He might have got from AWOS but how would Hani know what AWOS frequency is and more than that AWOS would have been reporting last hour Reagan Int'l which was 30.21. This hours was 30.23. How did he know that?

You're overlooking the fact that there were two hijackers in the cockpit. They had 5 hijackers per plane, three were muscle, and two took over the cockpit. It would be a simple matter for Hanjour to tell the other hijacker how to reset the altimeter to what he wanted it set to.

As for the AWOS frequency, he certainly couldn't have had a VFR chart, or anything that would list AWOS frequencies, or airport frequencies. I mean, it's not like he would know how to go into an aviation shop and buy a chart, or something. And it's not like they list nav aid frequencies, or anything like that.

The aeronautical information on Sectional Charts includes visual and radio aids to navigation, airports, controlled airspace, restricted areas, obstructions, and related data. (Scale 1 inch = 6.86 nm/1:500,000. 60 x 20 inches folded to 5 x 10 inches.) Revised semi-annually, except most Alaskan charts are revised annually.

www.aircraftspruce.com...

U.S. IFR/VFR Low Altitude Planning Chart is designed for pre-flight and enroute flight planning for IFR/VFR flights. The chart is printed front-East, back-West, with insets for the east coast from Washington, D.C. to Boston and on the west coast, from the Los Angeles to the San Diego area. Information includes the depiction of low altitude LF/MF and VHF airways and mileages, low altitude navigational facilities, airports with 3,000' hard-surfaced runways or greater, special use airspace areas, cities, time zones, major drainage, and a directory of airports with their airspace classification and a mileage table showing great circle distances between major airports. (Scale 1 inch = 47nm/ 1:3,400,000; 40 x 36 inches flat, or folded to 5 x 9 inches) Revised annually.

www.chiefaircraft.com...

Now as to headings. There are 3 types, True, Magnetic and Compass. For our purposes here we are only going to consider True and Magnetic because Compass headings are Magnetic headings corrected for deviation which are errors within the specific airplane which on modern airplanes are automatically corrected for.

True courses are course plotted relative to true north. True north is where the Meridians of longitude run from the south pole to the north pole.

Aviation maps ar either Mercator or Lambert Conformal. Mercator maps have the meridians of Longitude parallel to each other which means that any course drawn on it will not be a great circle. Mercators are not used much in aviation any more if at all. Most aviation maps are Lambert Conformal which means any course drawn from anywhere to anywhere on a Lambert Conformal will be great circle and this is what the pilot wants to know.

All references to heading in modern airplanes are to Magnetic north. The Flight Data Air Computer system through which all information passes figures out the magnetic heading and presents it to the pilot along with airspeed and altitude. The pilot doesn't need to figure out any corrections, this is the job of the Flight Data Air Computer system.

Magnetic heading which is the main reference for the pilot is automatically computed from True heading, adding westerly variation or subtracting easterly variation. Pilots remember "West is Best, East is Least" when going from true to magnetic. If going from Magnetic to true then of course the opposite is correct. Everything is magnetic heading related. The runway heading numbers are magnetic, radar vectors are magnetic, everything.

The only comment I want to make about the final heading into the Pentagon is that it increases ONLY. It NEVER decreases. How could Hani figure out a heading so precisely that he nevers has to correct back to the left?

Originally posted by Zaphod58

You're overlooking the fact that there were two hijackers in the cockpit. They had 5 hijackers per plane, three were muscle, and two took over the cockpit. It would be a simple matter for Hanjour to tell the other hijacker how to reset the altimeter to what he wanted it set to.

Yes but both altimeters were set precisely at FL 180, within one second, and the knobs were turned in the correct direction THE FIRST TIME on both altimeters and there was no braketing (overshoot) on either setting. Heck, I couldn't even do that.

Hijackers? Nah!. Those were professional pilots or the data was faked by someone who didn't realize the implication of what he was doing.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Wow. Impressive post

I feel ya brother.

To me it's just another case of intentional disinfo. The truth behind it, irrelevant. This view extended on the Pentagon police stooges elaborate this official piece of eivdence, no matter how flawed. The more flawed the better actually, as this would promote the old "incompetence theory".

From what i was percieving, and could even be evidenced on here at ATS, the Pentagon Conspiracy argument was fading away. These 'official' bits reinvigorated it and took it to the next level.

the arguement only faded away if you let it man. there has been much debunking on both sides that have gone on and on but several things have never been debunked. the main topics in my eyes for the pentagon story is that if you look at the footage in chronological order there was no hole in the pentagon to house a jetliner, and that the fuel that would have been in a jetliner would have burned for days.

So basically what you're saying is that every plane crash is faked then. Because there hasn't been one yet where "the fuel carried in a jetliner burned for days." It's called "Fire Fighters". They were there fighting the fire after the crash.

Originally posted by johnlear

Yes but both altimeters were set precisely at FL 180, within one second, and the knobs were turned in the correct direction THE FIRST TIME on both altimeters and there was no braketing (overshoot) on either setting. Heck, I couldn't even do that.

For the sake of argument let's say that there really were arab hijackers and that Hanjour was flying the plane.

1) If their plan was to hit the White House, Capitol, or Pentagon, it would be very important for them to get the altitude right on the descent. Otherwise they could plow into the ground short of their target, or overshoot their target.

They would have had years to plan the details of the operation. I think it's reasonable to believe that Hanjour would have trained to reset the altimeters on the descent through 180 if doing so would have helped him be precise in his approach to the target.

2) If it was important for Hanjour to make sure the altimeter was accurate, then it's also reasonable that he could have planned on getting the correct setting from Reagan somehow. Remember, this was a long-term, very well planned operation. It's likely that details like this would have been covered in their planning.

3) The 70 degree approach into the Pentagon was NOT a perfect approach. I think a reasonable scenario was that Hanjour was bringing the plane down and banking to the right. When he leveled off and saw the Pentagon directly ahead of him, he stopped the turn. This is why the heading never decreased. It increased until he had a direct line to the Pentagon, then he kept it steady.

I.e., as long as he was heading towards the Pentagon, he would have no reason to correct the heading back in the opposite direction. I'm estimating that he probably had a range of anywhere between a heading of 60 to 120 where he could have leveled the plane off and set his course directly for the Pentagon.

This means his 330 degree loop was less miraculous and precise than it was made out to be. Hanjour had a range of at least 60 degrees (between 60 and 120) where he would have still plowed into the Pentagon. He just happened to pick 70 because that's where he decided to level off first.

Originally posted by johnlear
Moreover according to the tabular FDR BOTH altimeters were reset within 1 second of each other.

Getting back on topic, how does anybody know if this data is real?

And as a member of PF911T, how do you address the primary issues which were brought up in this thread?

The Pandora's Black Box video portrays the NTSB animation as showing the flight path north of the Citgo and with a problematic altitude. And the FDR csv file clearly shows the flight path matching up with the official story.

Yet nowhere in the video, and nowhere that I've seen in the promotion of PBB or PentaCon, is it brought up that the csv file matches the official story, but not the animation. In fact, the impression I got was that the animation was created *from* the FDR csv file.

At this point, unless there's some explanation forthcoming about the source of the animation video, everything points to the animation video as being bogus.

It's time to talk about the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the middle of the living room. Is there any evidence that snowygrouch actually got the animation video from the NTSB?

What's your opinion? Is the animation video government disinfo, a government mole trying to get the truth out, or snowygrouch and friends pulling a huge con by creating the video themselves and trying to pass if off as coming from the NTSB?