Pentagon "NTSB animation" is wrong!

Hey Nick,

I don't know if it is what you're looking for, but there is another copy of the NTSB animation on Google video. Sorry I don't know how to link.

Originally posted by Zaphod58

I posted a couple links to the NTSB that has the raw data from the FDR, and radar tracking, as well as what appears to be a flight path for Flight 77, and the others. I'm on a horrid computer for looking at PDFs and doing some things though so it's hard for me to go through them all properly.

Zaphod and Boone,

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

What we really need is a verified version of the *animation* that supposedly came from the NTSB. If they gave it to PF911T, they should be able to give it out to anybody, right? I looked for the animation before on the NTSB website and never saw any animations there -only reports and data files.

Otherwise, who's to say that the PF911T didn't just make up their own animation and claim that it was from the NTSB? I haven't followed this subject THAT closely, but I seem to remember there is a hole in the chain of evidence that connects the animation to PF911T.

The more I think about it, the more ridiculous the PF911T story, if accurate, seems. Their claiming that the NTSB made an animation of the *REAL* FL 77 flight path and mistakenly handed the animation exclusively over to them? Then realizing their mistake, the NTSB changed the FDR file to match the official story?

Does this make sense to anybody else?

I understand what you're saying Nick. Pilots for truth are claiming to have a one-of-a-kind animation from the NTSB and any other animation from them has been altered to match the official story.

Originally posted by nick7261

The animation played a HUGE part in the original video, Pandora's Black Box. In fact, the entire point of the film was to point out that the NTSB flight data showed FL 77 coming in north of the Citgo, and not along the official flight path.

Well to be fair this was only one of their points. The loop actually taken right before that is another point, as is the altitude at the end (440 feet over the Pgon when corrected), and the fact that it stopped short of the building. But it was all about this animation, which is what they mean when they say FDR data. Which it isn't. So the whole thing isn't debunked, but brought into serious question to the point I will ignore all other discrepancies I can't see somewhere else too.

And we haven't debunked the PPentaCon yet, just its supposed Black Box backing.

It's not a compass error. It seems to be a blatant oversight by the publishers of PF911T that's so egregious that it casts doubts about everything else related to their videos. It's not a matter of whether or not the data was faked to "create a conspiracy." The point is the self-proclaimed experts at PF911T should have figured out what Caustic did before they produced their videos. Instead, the PF911T appear to have used ATS to promote their video while misleading the members here.

To the PF911T, if I have misinterpreted the data and the conclusions, I apologize in advance. However, unless there is some explanation for the problems pointed out, you seem to have some explaining to do.

Somehow it almost seems they were meant to be discovered tho. It's really not that tough. I mean from the first minute I was thinking "wow. Te FDR found IN thePentagon - shows the plane had to have passed over it. Did they plant it? Then why not with a faked trajectory that actually PUT it there?"

Fact is, real or not, it shows just that after all.

The animation is misinfo. That's as far as I care to go at the moment.

The reason the FDR stopped is that it records whole seconds of data. The data after the point it stops was only partially recorded, so the FDR didn't record it.

As for the altitude setting I'm reading some interesting things about that right now. Basically, here's how it worked that day, and what some other people are interpreting it as.

Flight 77 takes off, with the pressure set to 30.20 as told by the tower before departure. Once a flight passes 18,000 it's standard to reset the pressure to 29.92 on all flights. This was done. At some point after the takeover Hanjour reset the pressure on #1 to approximately 30.25. A 0.05 error leads to a 50 foot altitude error. So if we can find out what the pressure at the time of impact was as National we may be able to account for this error. If it was around 30.15 or so that would account for the altitude error.

Edit to add: According to PF911Truth it was around 30.20 still. I'm looking for other sources to verify this though.

[edit on 5/29/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Nick - I was completely wrong on the correction from mag to true heading in eastern US...see above.

Here is a link to the P4911T discussion regarding altered data:

z9.invisionfree.com...

I know you wanted your goof ignored, but I just had to say how cool it is to have my bubble burst but then... not! This is superb, we have a consensual reality forming here around this issue. I'm loving it.
Great link friend

It's interesting to know they haven't ignored it completely, but were discussing it in late February. But the other data being faked is the best they could come up with? Sheesh. Plus faked light pole clippage and interior building damage. That is ONE powerful ass animation that can counter all that stuff ane emerge the ONLY ONE REAL in their minds. Do minds get that broken on accident? Can they really believe this? Or does the "mis" before info become a "dis?"

It's a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
If it was around 30.15 or so that would account for the altitude error.

Edit to add: According to PF911Truth it was around 30.20 still. I'm looking for other sources to verify this though.

Lear was going on about the altitude issue in this thread. I am not sure if he is one of the guys who was privy to that data or not, but check it what he had to say, it may or may not help.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by nick7261
Has anybody ever tried contacting the NTSB to see if they'll give out a copy of the animation to whoever asks for it? Or are the PF911T the only group that was fortunate enough to get the animation before the ahem... csv file was altered?

THIS was to be my next step but I am too lazy and trepidatious. I didn't want to give away my idea but if someone else did it first, the best would be send a written letter to NTSB, reference the FOIA response letter sent to Snowygrouch in his packet, try to talk to Melba Moye, ask if they ever made an animation, was it sent out ever, would it fit on a CDR, and what was it called (prob not "flight path study"). These are all things I'd like to know.

Here's the cover letter


3 "Flight Path Studies" os three CDRs. I've seen a photo of him hlding the whole contents and there's no extra disc. Three of the same? Black box full flight animations from the NTSB on three discs, for flights 77, 11, and 175? What's wrong with that scenario?

PS... just curious... how DO people qualify to get their own personal ATS discussion forums here?

I don't really cre to know. I'm just glad to have a place to work where people with functioning brains actually gather. Was starting to fear they didn't even do that anymore.



[edit on 29-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by Boone 870
I understand what you're saying Nick. Pilots for truth are claiming to have a one-of-a-kind animation from the NTSB and any other animation from them has been altered to match the official story.

Sort of... there are no other animations. As far as I can tell nTSB never made any. Yet here there is one, from the NTSB and from the Black Box. No good evidence that it was sent where it was said to be sent, not even very explicit acknoweldgments from Snowygrouch himself on the issue. Just that it's unique and that it's based on the data. Either he's lying or it was slipped in before it got to him or I'm reading the evidence trail wrong.

The links are back there for his end of the story - the video link n the OP is good.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic

Well to be fair this was only one of their points.

It's very gracious of you to want to be fair. Personally, after reading the confrontational, condescending, posts directed your way in past threads I think it is fair to say that the PentaCon video was at least named appropriately.

I wish they still had the WATS award. Maybe you could have ATS switch out the PentaCon forum for a Caustic Logic forum instead?

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
3 "Flight Path Studies" os three CDRs. I've seen a photo of him hlding the whole contents and there's no extra disc. Three of the same? Black box full flight animations from the NTSB on three discs, for flights 77, 11, and 175? What's wrong with that scenario?

By "flight path studies" they don't mean animations. They're entirely different documents - see www.gwu.edu... for the releases (& they're on the NTSB site somewhere, too).

Oh, and there is a Flight 93 animation also. Not sure about 11 & 175, though.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
The reason the FDR stopped is that it records whole seconds of data. The data after the point it stops was only partially recorded, so the FDR didn't record it.

Yes one second is missing, but the problem is its position then - I think they've argued, and I agreed, that it's too far from the building as well as too high to have hit in another second.

And re: the altitude issues:

As for the altitude setting I'm reading some interesting things about that right now. Basically, here's how it worked that day, and what some other people are interpreting it as.

Flight 77 takes off, with the pressure set to 30.20 as told by the tower before departure. Once a flight passes 18,000 it's standard to reset the pressure to 29.92 on all flights. This was done.

Also resets at other flight levels it'd be interesting to check for:
FAA

At some point after the takeover Hanjour reset the pressure on #1 to approximately 30.25. A 0.05 error leads to a 50 foot altitude error. So if we can find out what the pressure at the time of impact was as National we may be able to account for this error. If it was around 30.15 or so that would account for the altitude error.

Edit to add: According to PF911Truth it was around 30.20 still. I'm looking for other sources to verify this though.

I read it a bit different, but I'm wrong often enough.
Slightly dated now but I put my analysis up here The pilots claim a 300 foot correction, putting the (animation) FDR alt of 180 msl as 480 msl, 440 agl.
www.abovetopsecret.com... (but labeled wrong - FL180 not 108 and it's not trim, it's.. whatever we're looking for. The thing that was reset.)

And one more thing: I want to go on the record about the CSV file I'm using - it has about as dubious an origin as the animation, though a different precise route. It has weird things too, like the reset on descent at 18,000 Zaphod's looking at. This is something a hijacker would not probably do, John Lear and me agree. So as we set up the CSV by using its supposed FDR prdigree to tear down the non-matching animation, I also need to note this, perhaps the Pilots' trump card - that shows an FAA-trained pro pilot in the cockpit as the maneuvers were executed.

From what I gather, it is THIS questionable reset NOT being in the animation that gives us what Balsamo thinks warrants a 300-foot correction. One more problem with animation, but possibly a bigger problem for the CSV file. The copy I have has no NTSB ID number. I think it was the doc made by the mr.x on his laptop from the unreadable L3 file the Pilots recieved...


[edit on 29-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

[edit on 29-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Well from what I was reading the reset at 18,000 was on CLIMB OUT, not descent. You wouldn't reset it to 29.92 on descent, because it's already at 29.92. The 29.92 setting is a standard setting for 18,000 plus. It was reset to 30.25 (estimated setting) but I don't know when. Just that it was some time after the takeover.

Caustic

In an earlier post on this page you said that you believe there is only one animation from the NTSB. I am almost positive that there is a second one on Google video that was posted May 26 and it is not from a pilot for truth. It is one hour and 29 minutes long. I know where it came from, but I'm not sure if I can mention the forum or the member. I would be more than happy to give the person that filed the FOIA request credit. Off to the rulebook to see if I can give him credit.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Well from what I was reading the reset at 18,000 was on CLIMB OUT, not descent. You wouldn't reset it to 29.92 on descent, because it's already at 29.92. The 29.92 setting is a standard setting for 18,000 plus. It was reset to 30.25 (estimated setting) but I don't know when. Just that it was some time after the takeover.

I think it's a two way process - as a plane crosses a FL threshold, it's time to reset for the airspace you're entering.

Extracted from the CSV file (the odd seconds had a different set of numbers (?))

ascent:
time - pressure thing - altitude
8:27:58 - 30.21 - 17938
------------------------------ FL180
8:28:00 - 29.91 - 18015
8:28:02 - 30.21 - 18093
8:28:04 - 29.91 - 18170
8:28:06 - 29.94 - 18247
8:28:08 - 29.91 - 18324
8:28:10 - 29.92 - 18402
8:28:12 - 29.91 - 18483

descent:
time - pressure thing - altitude
9:24:12 - 29.91 - 18205
9:24:14 - 29.92 - 18126
9:24:16 - 30.23 - 18049
------------------------------ FL180
9:24:18 - 30.01 - 17972
9:24:20 - 30.23 - 17895
...
9:25:00 30.23 18205
9:29:00 30.23 18126
9:34:00 30.23 18049
9:36:30 30.24 17972
9:37:00 30.23 17895
9:37:15 30.23 2079
9:37:30 30.23 1432
9:37:34 30.24 1049
9:37:40 30.23 496
9:37:44 30.23 173

There it is, under Hani Hanjour's control we're told and he turns the knob per FAA regs as he descends past 18,000.

[edit on 29-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by Boone 870
Caustic

In an earlier post on this page you said that you believe there is only one animation from the NTSB. I am almost positive that there is a second one on Google video that was posted May 26 and it is not from a pilot for truth. It is one hour and 29 minutes long. I know where it came from, but I'm not sure if I can mention the forum or the member. I would be more than happy to give the person that filed the FOIA request credit. Off to the rulebook to see if I can give him credit.

Ah! 1:29 - sounds like Calum Douglas' Ipswich presentation where he talks about the animation we're looking at. I hope citing him is okay since I put that link already in the OP. If it's a british guy talking then this is it - just found it the other day and haven't absorbed it all yet but highly interesting.

[ETA: For clarification if this is it, Douglas is Snowtgrouch, who recieved the unique animation and sent it to the Pilots. I didn't think he was a member but just saw him referred to as "an Engineering undergraduate from Oxford Brookes University and senior researcher at Pilots for 911 Truth."
And again here's the video:

Google Video Link

If you meant something else I'd love to see it because it'd be new. Send a u2u if you don't want to post the info.]


[edit on 29-5-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
9:37:00 30.23 17895
9:37:15 30.23 2079

Whoa, really? They lost nearly 16,000 ft in 15 seconds? I didn't realise that.

[edit on 29-5-2007 by coughymachine]

Sorry caustic, I'll drop it after this post. The video I'm talking about is the animation only and doesn't have any sound on it or anyone trying to explain it. The link to the video that you posted is in March and the freedom of information request for the video that I'm talking about wasn't filed until April. I'm going to assume that the video in the original post came from pilots for truth. Forgive me for any misunderstanding on my side. I really need to learn how to post videos!

Originally posted by Boone 870
Sorry caustic, I'll drop it after this post. The video I'm talking about is the animation only and doesn't have any sound on it or anyone trying to explain it. The link to the video that you posted is in March and the freedom of information request for the video that I'm talking about wasn't filed until April. I'm going to assume that the video in the original post came from pilots for truth. Forgive me for any misunderstanding on my side. I really need to learn how to post videos!

Okay, sorry Boone. Maybe the time is a coincidence. Hmmm. 1 hour 29 min, animation only. 9:37-8:20 takeoff = 1:17, so it could be the full flight plus some pre-takeoff sequence or padding. I'd always wanted to see the full animation. Does it look the same as this one, or is it clearly a diff file? Give me the full url and I'll get it posted.

Originally posted by coughymachine

Originally posted by Caustic Logic
9:37:00 30.23 17895
9:37:15 30.23 2079

Whoa, really? They lost nearly 16,000 ft in 15 seconds? I didn't realise that.

Me neither. That really doesn't look right. Maybe I screwed that up, it's a mess in there.

I'd post a sample time frame to show what I mean, but I doubt the character counter would let me.

I'll see about double-checking that...