I stand by War On Terrorism and Love United States

are you suggested there are different classes of human being?

neformore - I'am not suggesting different'classes' opf human beings...I'am suggesting different 'types' of human beings based on how they think. Which means - if you are able to think 'intelligently' you are an 'intelligent human being',if you are able to 'think rationally',you are a 'rational human being',if you are not able to 'think rationally' you are an 'irrational human being' ans so on. I think you are reading too much between the lines because of my profile name - AryanWatch. Let me clarify only for you this time - I'am not a racist blood sucking Nazi for god sake

And with due respect let me tell you that even I get pained when I see our fellow countrymen go out to the battlefield and die. To top it all,it's even worse when our own people say that they are doing this for nothing...

If the US was so interested in "installing" democracy there's a whole host of less stable countries that it could have taken up the cause for. Read up on conditions in Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Zimbabwe....you getting the point yet?

neformore - If we had decided to go to anyone of these countries that you have mentioned,what is the gaurantee that a lot of sceptics like the ones on ATS would not have stood up and said - It's for xyz!

We have not produced as many terrorists as you claim and if we have - show me how? You ,ean terrorists were not getting created when Saddam was gassing kurds?Or do you mean to say that Saddam's reign was prodeucing only clerics for the mosques? I don't mean to be caustic - but all this - America is bad - sounds more like a routine drill.

Originally posted by AryanWatch

are you suggested there are different classes of human being?

neformore - I'am not suggesting different'classes' opf human beings...I'am suggesting different 'types' of human beings based on how they think.

There certainly are different economic classes of people, each with their own perogitives and interests guiding their agenda.

To top it all,it's even worse when our own people say that they are doing this for nothing...

Its not for nothing, but it certainly isnt for the reasons espoused by policy makers and pundits. The iraqi war has little to do with democratic elections and democratic reforms for the iraqi people. But has much to do with free-market reforms for private capital firms.

US leaders and policy makers care little about the plight of the common citizen, and even less about democracy.

Satan will return in the end days, posing as good, yet he will reek havoc across the globe, causing death, famine, fear, chaos, conflict, ignorance and servitude, all across the globe. This is what has come to pass, and we need to wake up.

LightWorker - You comment above is an extremely simplistic and pessimistic way of looking at things. Instead of applying this logic for America just apply it for the religious fanatics and see for yourself.It will sounf more correct to you too. It's not America which is the Satan,rather it's in those countries where WMDs and Terrorist training camps exist. They are the ones who are hell bent on bringing the end of days not us.

Why does it have to be said again and again and again... just because you disagree with the policies of the government or president or the direction the country is heading in, does not mean that by necessity that you hate your country?

grover - No,it does not need to be said even once as nobody is saying that. We are all rational beings and we understand that you are not unpatriotic if you are questioning the status quo with facts and figures and informed opinion about things around you. Your judgement becomes questionable when you base your opinions on hearsay. That's my point. Probably you might like to read my previous posts on this thread.

Originally posted by AryanWatch
We have not produced as many terrorists as you claim and if we have - show me how?

If you haven't produced more terrorists, then who is blowing up and
shooting at the US forces on a daily basis, after so many have been killed? Are you suggesting that there are a finite number of terrorists?

You mean terrorists were not getting created when Saddam was gassing kurds?

This is the most bizarre thing you have posted. I'm kind of lost with it, because I'm trying to figure out what you mean.

The gassing of the Kurdish villages inflamed the remaining Kurds against Saddam Hussein, and they revolted at the end of the '91 Gulf War and hoped to depose him. Now heres the kicker - because there was no UN mandate for regime change in Iraq Bush Senior did not support the uprising within the country, and the UN no-fly "protection zones" were set up instead, leaving the Kurds high and dry on the ground and unable to act. (The hypocrisy of Bush Jnrs decision to invade Iraq without a UN mandate is made all the more apparent by that)

The people who carried out the gassing would have been members of the Iraqi military, acting under orders of Saddam Hussein.

Quite what the gassing of the Kurds has got to do with terrorism is beyond me. It was a crime against humanity by a sovereign government, that went virtually unpunished at the time. The reason I mentioned it in the first place was to counter the argument that the Iraq invasion was anything at all to do with human rights abuses, because at the time the gassing happened no one really cared about it to such an extent as to remove Saddam Husseins regime from power.

Or do you mean to say that Saddam's reign was prodeucing only clerics for the mosques?

I'm sorry but you missed something along the way. Iraq was a secular state whilst Saddam Hussein was in power. Religious extremism was frowned upon and slapped down.

Thats why there was no civil war in Iraq, and thats why tying Iraq up with Al- Quaeda is/was such a stupid thing to do.

Oh yes, Al-Quaeda will be in Iraq now - no mistake about that, but its there because the US opened pandora's box and let it out.

There was no link between 9/11 and Iraq. Ask the 9/11 commission.

I don't mean to be caustic - but all this - America is bad -sounds more like a routine drill.

No. Its not a "drill" its an opinion, one thats born out of looking at the whole subject from a distance and with an appreciation of the subject matter, the facts at hand, the available information and the history of the region from a more distant and neutral position and not just out of "blind patriotism".

BTW - your screen name - I mentioned earlier what it seemed to impy, but no, I don't think you are a Nazi. I do think you are blinded by your nationality, but aren't we all to one extent or another?

This is the most bizarre thing you have posted. I'm kind of lost with it, because I'm trying to figure out what you mean.

neformore - I'am sorry if you find this 'bizzare'.Let me tell you - It's not. What I meant was simply this: Wherever you have a group of oppressed people who feel their dignity and honour is at threat,they have a tendency to resort to the use of weapons ( one of the necessities of being a terrorist). They might also decide to become a terrorist if there is a perceived threat on the very existence of their near and dear ones, nation,religion etc. You can validate this truth if you do some secondary research about Kashmiri or Serbian terrorists.

I'am not saying that there are finite number of terrorists.I also agree when you say that we are producing terrorists in Iraq coz of our occupation to some extent,what I don't agree is when you presume/imply that all the terrorists in Iraq are a result of our occupation or invasion as you call it.

It is true that there was no 'Civil War' in iraq before we went there but what was exsiting was an uneasy truce because of the iron fist rule of Saddam. But you would also agree that there was definately an Iraqi connection to the 9/11.

(Btw, my screen name is Aryan+Watch. So it's not what it looks like.You have to look a little closely)

Iraq was a secular state whilst Saddam Hussein was in power.

Now this is something which I am really confounded with. Either you are confused with the definition of 'secular' or you are talking about some other country How do you imagine an Islamic state to be secular? If you mean Iraq was 'secular' for Shias and Sunnis I can believe that. But thats not secularism.Right?

Originally posted by AryanWatch
But you would also agree that there was definately an Iraqi connection to the 9/11.

NO. I don't agree, because there wasn't.

When I posted "There was no link between 9/11 and Iraq. Ask the 9/11 commission." it was because there was no Iraqi connection to 9/11. I don;t know how much clearer I could be about it.

Originally posted by AryanWatch
Now this is something which I am really confounded with. Either you are confused with the definition of 'secular' or you are talking about some other country How do you imagine an Islamic state to be secular? If you mean Iraq was 'secular' for Shias and Sunnis I can believe that. But thats not secularism.Right?

It was, to all intents and purposes a secular dictatorship. I suggest you read this on Wikipedia, which is a biography of Saddam Hussein

Saddam Hussein

Which describes it in, suprisingly, under the heading of Secular Leadership.

Or even, put "Iraq" + "Secular state" in Google and see what you can come up with. Judging by your reaction to my post I know you will be suprised.

Look. I'm not saying the guy was an angel, because he sure as hell wasn't. He was a filthy nasty man who was behind some despicable things, but if you look at it all clearly it can be seen that invading Iraq was nothing to do with "the war on terror" and everything to do with US corporate and strategic interests.

The invasion was undertaken on the pretext of finding WMD's that were not there, and a technique called "parroting" by the Bush administration that subtely linked Saddam Husseins regime to 9/11 when that simply was not the case.

The invasion most certainly was not about his human rights record, or "installing democracy" (you know, any way you look at that phrase its ridiculous and laughable)

I'm suprised. I thought that before anyone would make judgements on "support" for the "war on terror" they would have known all of this stuff, looked at the politics of the region as a whole, understood the various religious factors and the underlying politics and background stories to it all.

The only "freedoms" being fought for in Iraq - that 3,402 servicemen and women have died for to date - is to keep US gasoline prices at a low level.

More people without a clue trying to prove to everyone they don't have a clue. The United States was Born? And you got this from whom? It isthe "State of the Union" address not the state of the nation. And that man Jefferson you quoted in the OP also said that the most Patriotic thing one can do is question it's government, that the tree of liberty should be sprinkled with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants every 20 years, to stay out of foreign entanglements, to leave the power in the People and in the States and not in the federal government, centralized power only seeks more power from those it rules. No my friends we are not even close to the Constitutional Republic that Jefferson gave us, wearemuch closer to the Soviet style socilaism and German style Fascism of the 30'2 and 40's than to anything our founders gave us.

I am not a U.S. Citizen because that is by deffinition, Treason to the Republic.

Can you Say Baaaahhh!!!!!
Sorry couldn’t help it. Your ideologies about his nations are dumb founded. As I state in other threads this was once a free country before Europeans came and highjack that idea turning it into something way different then what it truly means to be free.

Why would any one stand for this BS. Must like to take it in the rear, oh thank prescription drugs for desensitizing you. You asked for it you got it.
Welcome to the darker side of Eagle.
Don’t take any of this to seriously, peace my brother.

Ill say it again, if you support the war go fight it.

People say "we have to go to war" WE have to go to war? YOUR watching the war on CNN mate, youre not going anywhere!!

You know there are so many soldiers coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, who have experienced first hand just how immoral and illogical this war really is. There is actually a group called Veterans Against The Iraq War.

www.vaiw.org...

There are thousands and thousands of people in the military who understand the true nature of whats going on, and dont want any part of it. But, they are being left there, in many cases their tour of duty is extended over and over, and they cant do anything, because...well...pulling the troops out is cowardly and we have to stay until the "job is done" but no one knows what the job is or how to do it.

So again, if your for this idiotic war, then go fight it, and you see for yourself...

Originally posted by LightWorker13

You know there are so many soldiers coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan, who have experienced first hand just how immoral and illogical this war really is. There is actually a group called Veterans Against The Iraq War.

www.vaiw.org...

There are thousands and thousands of people in the military who understand the true nature of whats going on, and dont want any part of it. But, they are being left there, in many cases their tour of duty is extended over and over, and they cant do anything, because...well...pulling the troops out is cowardly and we have to stay until the "job is done" but no one knows what the job is or how to do it.

So again, if your for this idiotic war, then go fight it, and you see for yourself...

You say these things as if it is a majority opinion of the troops!!! IT IS NOT!!!

It may be of those who went into the military only for the freebies(I.E Educaton).

What would people like you have done back in the times of WW1 and WW2, allthough all death is a terrible thing, people like you would have had heart attacks and strokes with the deaths of those days!

And dont try to spin this as if Im saying death is ok, its not, but all those souls in heaven are probably greatfull they ridded the world of such evil as hitler! And too day the same can be said about those who gave so dearly to rid the world of terrorists, so be it 1 at a time.

Its just a shame all you people here piss on their graves with all this oil and conspiracy crap!! This is the true injustice to the dead "YOU FOLKS"

Originally posted by redseal
And dont try to spin this as if Im saying death is ok, its not, but all those souls in heaven are probably greatfull they ridded the world of such evil as hitler! And too day the same can be said about those who gave so dearly to rid the world of terrorists, so be it 1 at a time.

Its just a shame all you people here piss on their graves with all this oil and conspiracy crap!! This is the true injustice to the dead "YOU FOLKS"

I think its more likely that they are looking down appalled at the fact that the US has started to act like the people they fought to depose in WW2.

It was, to all intents and purposes a secular dictatorship. I suggest you read this on Wikipedia, which is a biography of Saddam Hussein

neformore - Thanks for the link. It is really an eyeopener. This is why I prefer ATS over others as it gives me an opportunity to form informed opinions about the happenings around me. I still have little reservations to the fact that any country that follows sharia can be'secular' in the tru sense of the word. Most of the Islamic countries in the world and specially middle east don't even allow you to worship your god while you are in their land. In Saudi Arabia, it is considered blasphemy and is punishable by imprisonment.

And yes, your point about me being less informed about the war is not totally true. I believe in doing my homework properly. May be I missed a point or two. But I'am sure I will be able to catch up with the help of this thread here and offcourse,with help from people like you.

Why would any one stand for this BS. Must like to take it in the rear, oh thank prescription drugs for desensitizing you. You asked for it you got it.

pweagle - I can respond to you in your own language but I will not stoop down to your level. I will not let your actions effect mine. I know better. If you are here to deny ignorance,do it with dignity. Don't start showing your frustration to the whole world. I'am trying to get some informed opinion here and not the rant like yours.

neformore - I found the below link which shows clearly that Bush is not alone in connecting Iraq and Osama.


www.weeklystandard.com...

Ill say it yet again, if your for this war, go fight it, and let the soldiers who understand come home, its just that simple.

I suggest you watch a video of one of some of your bravest and finest soldiers condemning this war based on first hand experiences.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

video.google.ca...

There are so many more all you gotta do is type iraq veterans against the war in a google search engine, and youll get hundreds of videos.

WATCH THEM! If you really care about the troops, you will sit and listen to their stories!! Listen to what they know and have seen, and understand why they are rightfully against this war. Their opinion matters too!

The main problem I see with the War On Terror is that terrorism is an idea. It's a way to control people. It's similar to a war on democracy, or a war on communism. If we kill every terrorist in the next 5 minutes there's nothing stopping someone else from using the same tactic 5 years from now. It's a tactic that's been used for hundreds maybe thousands of years, "Do what I say or I'll kill you and your family." It's an idea that can't be stopped with a war.

Originally posted by AryanWatch
We have not produced as many terrorists as you claim and if we have - show me how? You ,ean terrorists were not getting created when Saddam was gassing kurds?Or do you mean to say that Saddam's reign was prodeucing only clerics for the mosques? I don't mean to be caustic - but all this - America is bad - sounds more like a routine drill.

Is this 'War On Terror' worth the innocent lives? The depleted uraniam we put in Iraq is mutating the future generations and causing cancer in civillians, similar to the birth defects that followed Nagasaki and Hiroshima. These scarred children will create more freedom fighters/terrorists/insurgents than any foreign policy will.

A BBC investigation can reveal that the US and UK military have continued to use depleted uranium weapons despite warnings from scientists that it poses a potential long-term cancer risk to civilians.

Warning: Graphic Images In Link And By Clicking Link You Waiver Any Right To Complain About What You See To Anyone At Any Time
I Agree

I would take Saddam's rule over this.

Expect many more birth defects from the toxic area for centuries because depleted uranium has a half-life of 4.6 billion years.