Anyone from O.T.O. on board?

Originally posted by Cug


No degree system? where did you get this info?

From Koenig's site, don't have the actual link available at the moment.

My understanding is the original OTO, The Academia Masonica, pretty much was nothing but a collection of masonic degrees of assorted repute. Then came the Academia Masonica of O.T.O., and the O.T.O. proper that each had 3 degrees. (Man of Earth, The Lovers, Hermit)

According to Koenig, the degree system and "Academia Masonica" did not come into existence until after Kellner's death, and was introduced by Reuss. Kellner's original group (according to Koenig) was just a gathering of a few friends who practiced various forms of sex magick. According to Koenig (again) it was not a "formal" O.T.O., but just some people who met at Kellner's place.

Sorry to interrupt, but how can you give degree to someone regarding spiritual matters? Sure you can partially judge how much they learned from books, but not about spiritual awareness.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

From Koenig's site, don't have the actual link available at the moment.

Well that's the problem right there.

Peter is a great collector of facts and documents.. however his interpretation of them is not so good. Somewhere on his site he claimed that Ruess kicked Crowley out of the O.T.O. for evidence he presents some letters with Ruess getting more upset with Crowley. however if you look at the dates of the letter you can see he put them out of order and the last letter he is discussing order biz with Crowley.. not something that would of been done if he kicked him out.

Originally posted by sb2012
Sorry to interrupt, but how can you give degree to someone regarding spiritual matters? Sure you can partially judge how much they learned from books, but not about spiritual awareness.

You are correct.. I'm not aware of any degree that judges spiritual awareness. We have been talking about Adepts and really all that means is a person has learned the basics and is ready to dive head first into the Great Work.

In the Golden Dawn system, Adeptus Minor (5=6) is the stage you start actually using the stuff you have learned in the lower grades. In Crowley's A.'.A.'. the 5=6 the main duty is to have knowledge and conversation with the holy guardian angel.

In fact in the A.'.A.'. anyone can declare themselves a Magister Templi (8=3) simply (lol) by taking the oath of the abyss. This is a purely a question of spiritual awareness and no one can claim you haven't done it. Well unless you fail and crash in a ball of flames, then everyone can see it.

Originally posted by sb2012
Sorry to interrupt, but how can you give degree to someone regarding spiritual matters? Sure you can partially judge how much they learned from books, but not about spiritual awareness.

I think Cug's answer is a good one. To elaborate a little more, in the Golden Dawn, candidates for the next Grade were required to undergo an examination. For example, Neophytes who wished to be passed to the degree of Zelator would demonstrate the Lesser Ritual of the Pentagram, the Vibratory Formula of the Divine Names, and take a written examination on ruimentary occult and Kabalistic knowledge.

The same thing applies to Masonry, although to a lesser extent. The Entered Apprentice must first be examined in the knowledge pertaining to his degree before being passed, and so on.

To me, this is the most convenient way to do it. The word "initiation" implies "beginning". The physical ceremony of a degree must be followed by a close study of it...otherwise, the actual ritual is useless.

Since the concepts that the Candidate is introduced to are often abstract, it is important to give him only what he is capable of understanding. Otherwise, he will become frustrated and abandon the Work. The degree system allows one to learn at his own pace without being bombarded with all sorts of information that would mean absolutely nothing to him anyway unless he was well-grounded.

Yes, that's very true. People new to certain things would be confused by higher levels material. Still it's important to realize some societies may use levels for other purposes, like some kind of control and to keep lower level initiates unaware of certain things. Well, entirely depends on what organization wants to achieve. Thanks for the explanation.