Anyone from O.T.O. on board?

Originally posted by kutmaster
Master Masons in good standing, by arrangement, on affiliation, are admitted at reduced charges.

Nice cut and paste from the O.T.O. Constitution of 1917. However it's a bit dated nowdays. Masons receive no special accommodations now, most of the masonic references were removed by 1919. (But you can still see them in some of the degree rituals)

Originally posted by Masonic Light
[Although only a small percentage of Masons are members of the O.T.O., quite a few male members of O.T.O. are Masons, including the current General Secretary of the Scottish Rite Research Society.

I seem to remember that person being M.P.S.? if so he is not O.T.O. but A.'.A.'.

Originally posted by dAlen

It would seem that the Christian propganda is NWO.

Ditto

Originally posted by 64738
After doing a bit of research it seems OTO as we know it, is dead. They have no keys to any real truth.

I disagree.. they may be a bit disfunctional, but nowhere near dead.

They are as good as dead. Also Freemasons have no real secrets or knowledge, just good hierarchy to manipulate society and help each other profit. If you want to discover real truth follow your signature and give away all books.

Originally posted by 64738
They are as good as dead.

Why?

Also Freemasons have no real secrets or knowledge, just good hierarchy to manipulate society and help each other profit.

You right they have no secrets.. they just offer a path to knowledge, it's up to the individual member to find the "secrets" for himself. I have a book by a member of the O.T.O. who is also a freemason, and his idea of the "secrets"** is totally diffrent from they way a Christian, Jew, Muslam, etc.. would see the "secrets".

If you want to discover real truth follow your signature and give away all books.

Bla, Not believing everything you read, is not the same as burying your head in the sand.


** His idea of the secret is the Magick of King Solomon

Originally posted by Cug


I seem to remember that person being M.P.S.? if so he is not O.T.O. but A.'.A.'.

That's the guy, but didn't he say in his book on Wilred Smith that he was a member of the O.T.O.? I loaned the book out and haven't got it back yet, so cannot verify.

He has written several articles on the O.T.O. for "The Plumbline", which is the newsletter for the Scottish Rite Research Society.

I just double checked my copy.

Starr was a member of Motta's S.O.T.O. and quit. He was latter offered membership in the O.T.O. (after he was a witness at the trial on their side) but declined the offer.

Originally posted by 64738
After doing a bit of research it seems OTO as we know it, is dead. They have no keys to any real truth. Few invocation rituals is best they can do. Of course they have little idea what they really mean anyway.

well, I hope that's not true..I'm going to an O.T.O meeting on tuesday to see what it's all about

Originally posted by dragonseeker


well, I hope that's not true..I'm going to an O.T.O meeting on tuesday to see what it's all about

Is it the Gnostic Mass you will be attending, or a more social event?

I thought it was the mass, but after looking at the e-mail they sent me again, they do the mass on sundays, so it's one of their other, open to the public events, in any case it's tuesday at 8pm, so I'll just go and see.

Edit: BTW, has anyone heard of this group?
www.thelema.org...

Their temple is actually a lot closer to my apt, I was wondering how they were compared to O.T.O..

[edit on 2-6-2007 by dragonseeker]

Originally posted by dragonseeker


Edit: BTW, has anyone heard of this group?
www.thelema.org...

Their temple is actually a lot closer to my apt, I was wondering how they were compared to O.T.O..

Cug can correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not mistaken, this is a group that claims A.'.A.'. lineage.

If that's the case, there is no comparison between them and the O.T.O., with the only exception that both organizations are composed of Thelemites.

Many people, including even some Thelemites, consider the O.T.O. to be the big daddy of Thelema. However, as Crowley wrote in The Equinox, "the Law cometh from the A.'.A.'., not the O.T.O.". The O.T.O. was the first of the Osirian orders to accept the Law of Thelema, but Crowley himself did not become a member until around 1912.

This is not to disparage the O.T.O. I think they have a Great Work to perform. If the rank and file members would purge the organization of its political problems, I myself would probably sign up.

Thanks, yeah I was listening to a podcast last night, guy's name was John something, talking about how OTO was moving away from crowley, and various issues within the group. It gave me some pause, but we'll just see what's what.

[edit on 2-6-2007 by dragonseeker]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Cug can correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not mistaken, this is a group that claims A.'.A.'. lineage.

You are almost right. The Temple of Thelema is not the A.'.A.'. But it was set up by that lineage. Like the Collage of Thelema it is set up sorta like a prep school to get you ready to enter the A.'.A.'. but it (The TOT) is more of an initiatory group.

They have a forum if you wish to get a feel of the group www.heruraha.net...

Many people, including even some Thelemites, consider the O.T.O. to be the big daddy of Thelema. However, as Crowley wrote in The Equinox, "the Law cometh from the A.'.A.'., not the O.T.O.". The O.T.O. was the first of the Osirian orders to accept the Law of Thelema, but Crowley himself did not become a member until around 1912.

Oversimplifying it a bit, the A.'.A.'. is a teaching order, and the O.T.O. is more of a social order. (Not to say the O.T.O. doesn't teach things)

This is not to disparage the O.T.O. I think they have a Great Work to perform. If the rank and file members would purge the organization of its political problems, I myself would probably sign up.

The rank and file members of the O.T.O. have no power to do any purging, in fact one could say most members (The man of the earth) are not even in the O.T.O. proper. But every group seems to have their political problems.. That is one reason I giggle to myself whenever I see a post here about an occult group that is behind the taking over the world. Most cant even keep their own groups from splitting, there is no way they can control the world.

Originally posted by dragonseeker
Thanks, yeah I was listening to a podcast last night, guy's name was John something, talking about how OTO was moving away from crowley, and various issues within the group. It gave me some pause, but we'll just see what's what.

Yep the John and Keith show. If you don't know John was recently booted from the O.T.O. because of some comments he made on his blog and elsewhere. but in any case be sure to keep you mind open and make up your own mind.

IMHO John and Keith are going a bit overboard.

I will keep an open mind..this really intrigues me because thelemites seem to take from masonry, rosicrucianism and templarism, all of which interest me and 2 of which I've studied(templarism with a neotemplar group, and AMORC for a short bit), so this might be just the thing for me. I'll post about my experience on tuesday.

Originally posted by Cug


The rank and file members of the O.T.O. have no power to do any purging.

Sure they can. Viva la Revolucion!

As mentioned, I've never been an initiate member of O.T.O. I have enough problems trying to straighten Masonry out, and so have no desire or energy left to take on the internal politics of another Society.

Yet, on the other hand, I have always been strongly influenced by Thelema, and count the Brothers and Sisters of O.T.O. as my own, if they are honest in their dedication to the Law. My close spiritual kinship with the Brethren of O.T.O. leads me to truly wish they could transform the Order into what Therion envisioned.

Somehow I missed your post.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Sure they can. Viva la Revolucion!

Well there has been plenty of revolution.

S.O.T.O., Typhonian O.T.O., Swiss O.T.O., O.T.O.A., C.A.O.T.O., UR-O.T.O., H.O.O.R., Fraternitas Saturni, Ordo Argentum Astrum, Horus/Ma'at Lodge, Order of Thelemic Knights, (Hell you might also include the CoS, and the ToS), to name just a few results of revolution.

IMHO there has been way to much revolution, and not enough actual work.

Originally posted by Cug

IMHO there has been way to much revolution, and not enough actual work.

I can't disagree with that. Practically every "affiliated" Thelemite in the world has completely disregarded the command "As brothers fight ye!"

The main problem that I've seen is egotism in the leadership. Everybody wants to be the O.H.O. Did McMurtry have some authority from Crowley? Yes. But, of course, so did Grant, and Motta's calim of legitimacy from Germer is at least tenable.

I'm not saying that I believe that occult orders should be completely democratic....after all, the Adepts should guide and teach the Neophytes, not the other way around. But I think that one should at least be an Adeptus before coming into any leadership position, and Crowley's remarks that the O.H.O. can be chosen even from the Minervals makes no sense to me (and is perhaps the reason for some of their problems today).

But regardless, I'm much more of a Golden Dawner than an O.T.O.'er; I just find it sad that they cannot unite on a common front. It seems like everyone is more interested in racking up degrees and titles than in the Great Work. I expect that from most of Masonry these days, but I think that some, if not many, of the "occult orders" are now even worse!

I was interested in joining when younger but then i saw exactly same stuff you all are talking about here... Arguing, political games, cult mentality (at some) and in general behavior i wouldn't attribute to any capable leader or enlightened person, so i decided to change the world myself.

About my enlightenment i don't care, in fact i don't want to spend any time working on enlightenment, because this is just wasting time in my view. It's OK to seek these things, but it's foolish to follow certain procedures, wear certain clothes, eat in certain way or spend years somewhere for that purpose. It's a waste of time.

[edit on 20-6-2007 by sb2012]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The main problem that I've seen is egotism in the leadership. Everybody wants to be the O.H.O. Did McMurtry have some authority from Crowley? Yes. But, of course, so did Grant, and Motta's calim of legitimacy from Germer is at least tenable.

Well Germer did give Grant the boot, and his stuff really needs it's own branch of the family tree.

But I think that one should at least be an Adeptus before coming into any leadership position, and Crowley's remarks that the O.H.O. can be chosen even from the Minervals makes no sense to me

Well IMHO the O.T.O. is not about making Adepts, it's about spreading Thelema. So there are no adepts to be chosen.

But regardless, I'm much more of a Golden Dawner than an O.T.O.'er; I just find it sad that they cannot unite on a common front. It seems like everyone is more interested in racking up degrees and titles than in the Great Work. I expect that from most of Masonry these days, but I think that some, if not many, of the "occult orders" are now even worse!

Yep, off hand I can't think of one occult order that hasn't splintered in some way. But now that I think about it, maybe that the way it has to be. In most orders once you reach adept status, there is no more written teaching to learn.. you are at a place where you can find what you need to know on your own... and that may just lead you to start your own order based on what you find out.

So adepts have 3 possible paths to follow

1) Continue exploring the one they are already on

2) Branch out with new teachings

3) Let the Ego win, go insane, and start you own order based on your Ego or insanity.

I'm posting drunk here so i hope that was understandable.

Note to self: Watch out when the neighbor brings over some of his homebrewed beer.

Originally posted by sb2012

About my enlightenment i don't care, in fact i don't want to spend any time working on enlightenment, because this is just wasting time in my view. It's OK to seek these things, but it's foolish to follow certain procedures, wear certain clothes, eat in certain way or spend years somewhere for that purpose. It's a waste of time.

Why is it a waste of time?

[edit on 6/20/2007 by Cug]

Originally posted by Cug
(...)
Why is it a waste of time?

Actually best is to see for yourself what you want, desire and need. There is no rule what is best for someone. Just sometimes i see people are spending a lot of time working on spiritual development in some remote temple, obeying all the rules and doing things in strict and certain ways which for me is a waste of time.

For someone else maybe not, but i see more benefit for all when someone helps others and forgets about his self-image and reinforcements of it.

About my own enlightenment, i don't need it. That's my personal choice. I don't care about any spiritual advancement i may achieve. I need to do other things.

Originally posted by Cug


Well Germer did give Grant the boot, and his stuff really needs it's own branch of the family tree.

I guess the question would be, by what authority did he do so? I realize that the Caliphate claims Germer was O.H.O., but that claim is sort of tedious.

Well IMHO the O.T.O. is not about making Adepts, it's about spreading Thelema. So there are no adepts to be chosen.

Crowley considered Initiates of the IX° at least to be Adepts, and also considered the central secret of Gnostic Alchemy taught in that Grade to be a cornerstone of Magick. I realize that many O.T.O. writers go on and on about how O.T.O. is not a "teaching order" but I don't think they're argument holds much water. The fundamental purpose of the O.T.O. is to prepare the Candidate for the IX° mysteries. In fact, when Kellner first founded the original O.T.O. prototype with Reuss and several others, theere wasn't a degree system at all, and everything was geared toward what is now the IX°.

So adepts have 3 possible paths to follow

1) Continue exploring the one they are already on

2) Branch out with new teachings

3) Let the Ego win, go insane, and start you own order based on your Ego or insanity.

I choose Door Number Three.

I'm posting drunk here

Crowley would be proud.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I guess the question would be, by what authority did he do so? I realize that the Caliphate claims Germer was O.H.O., but that claim is sort of tedious.

Well offhand the only ones who did not acknowledge Germer were the folks who didn't acknowledge Crowley in the first place. (Metzger for example) Grant recognized Germer but when he was kicked out changed his mind on that. Just another day in the occult order world.

Crowley considered Initiates of the IX° at least to be Adepts, and also considered the central secret of Gnostic Alchemy taught in that Grade to be a cornerstone of Magick.

I have to say well sorta. This past week I was reading something along the same lines in google groups and Crowley seemed (as if often did) to have contrary points of view on this depending on who he was talking to/about. I'd post a link to it but I can't find it right now.. it's somewhere on alt.magick posted in the previous century

In fact, when Kellner first founded the original O.T.O. prototype with Reuss and several others, theere wasn't a degree system at all, and everything was geared toward what is now the IX°.

No degree system? where did you get this info? My understanding is the original OTO, The Academia Masonica, pretty much was nothing but a collection of masonic degrees of assorted repute. Then came the Academia Masonica of O.T.O., and the O.T.O. proper that each had 3 degrees. (Man of Earth, The Lovers, Hermit)

Crowley would be proud.

He would of called me a lightweight