Honor killing of young girl in Iraq caught on video

the problem with the muslim communtiy is lack of public dialoge and lack of public distaste...and it still is its downfall in all this as far as public relations.

Remember when everyone was afraid to make a muslim joke?

Originally posted by kokoro
Okay for the muslims of the thread, this is what I want to understand. and i am not being hateful in any way, I really do want to understand. If this is not a cultural problem in Islam then why is it that a whole town full of people, police and all stood by while someone was brutally murdered in the street? It looks to me like it is culturally acceptable to kill women for "honor" or else it would not happen so often. I know that the Quran doesnt condone this and that not all muslims think this is ok, but I am puzzled as to why in certain groups this has become a perfectly acceptable way of treating women. is it because of a few rogue clerics? Also, why is there not a concerted effort of these governments to stop it, ie: harsher punishments, ect.

Even thou there have been so called muslim honour killings this is NOT one of them,

Please read.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Also I am muslim, and I really dont understand these so called honour killings, I feel DEEP hatred towards fathers that do this to their OWN daughter.

Originally posted by laiguana
If you all claim that these types of honor killings aren't part of the Islamic culture then do tell why these incidents are most pervasive in the Islamic culture?

Because you fail to understand the difference between Islamic culture and Middle Eastern and Asian culture. Honor killings predate Islam, and are rooted in all of Asia's history (and European countries, for that matter), even far Eastern countries like Japan. During the 50s and 60s here, black men would be killed if they dated a white woman. That in itself is an honor killing, by the woman's family.

I work more with numbers; I am not moved by the candy-coated talk that I get by Islamic apologists.

Ok. What are the numbers of people killed in honor killings around the world, including in the US from the 40s+? You seem to use the phrase "apologists" as if we're apologizing for what those people did. We're not apologists, but rather "knowledgist," using our knowledge to rid ignorance and stereotypes.

And statistically it shows that honor killings are the highest among Islamic nations, not to mention terrorism, but that's a whole different subject.

Care to post your sources? If the terrorism occurred after Bush decided to invade Iraq, and US decided to let the Taliban take over Afghanistan, then I think you have your answer right there.

I'm not the one ignoring the FACTS

You mean such as there being over a billion Muslims all over the world, and how many honor killings per year? If it's such an Islamic issue, why doesn't every Muslim do it?

....I don't care whether there are so called 'misinterpretions' of the quran

Oh but you should, because people like you use the misinterpreted texts as justifcation to demonize a whole religion.

every religion has different interpretations of its' doctrine - just about.

There is only one interpretation of the Arabic written Quran.

Look at how many denominations exist within Christianity, but how often do you hear about Christians blowing themselves up in a crowd

No, the Christian fundamentalists tend to leave the bombs in abortion clinics and run away.

killing their daughters because they're dating someone

I'm sure this occurred many times with white supremacists during the oppression of blacks in the 20th century.

or beheading those that don't share their exact beliefs?

No, they just attack the gay community, pro-choicers, and pretty much any other race that isn't white.

Not much these days, perhaps in the past, but you can't justify the present with the past.

Look up Seas of David, Clayton Waagner, Christian Identity movement, and the uprising of the KKK, if you want to look at facts.

[edit on 4-5-2007 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by kokoro
Okay for the muslims of the thread, this is what I want to understand. and i am not being hateful in any way, I really do want to understand. If this is not a cultural problem in Islam then why is it that a whole town full of people, police and all stood by while someone was brutally murdered in the street? It looks to me like it is culturally acceptable to kill women for "honor" or else it would not happen so often. I know that the Quran doesnt condone this and that not all muslims think this is ok, but I am puzzled as to why in certain groups this has become a perfectly acceptable way of treating women. is it because of a few rogue clerics? Also, why is there not a concerted effort of these governments to stop it, ie: harsher punishments, ect.

In Sunni world, there is death penalty for adultery. However, it was not the fathers or husbands to judge conclusively. It was for the "Ulama Council". But as with Christianity, this was practised a long time ago.

"Honor Killing" is not known in Sunni world because adultery sin now warrant heavy fine.

The people of Kurds are Shiite and their government have introduced reforms outlawing honour killings. It's obvious most of them are not well educated or simply not well informed.

Kurdish authorities have introduced reforms outlawing honour killings, but have failed to investigate them or prosecute suspects, added the Amnesty spokesman.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Hopefully by this event, the Kurdish government will open their eyes and start to educate their own people about being muslim.

Originally posted by junglelord
the problem with the muslim communtiy is lack of public dialoge and lack of public distaste...and it still is its downfall in all this as far as public relations.

The problem has to do with lack of media attention. When a person claiming to be Muslim does something bad, the media has no problem reporting it, but when a Muslim does something good, or denounces what that person did, no one from the media wants to listen.

Well lets see, there are not many Islamic run media corporations in the West, and if one community holds a vigile to honor this girl, it would only be covered in that communities local news. How can someone say that Muslims do not condemn this, unless they have the power to view every single domestic news station everywhere in the world at the same time?

but how often do you hear about Christians blowing themselves up in a crowd in innocent people, or killing their daughters because they're dating someone, or beheading those that don't share their exact beliefs? Not much these days, perhaps in the past, but you can't justify the present with the past.

If you look up decapitations or beheadings, you would find this actually happens in the Us frequently. Sme things go for stabbings, shootings, poisoning, beatings, and so on and son crimes. Are you telling me every single criminal in the US is an athiest? Or are you saying that only Athiests commit crimes? Unless the criminal is a Muslim, his/her religious (non)-beliefs will not be disclosed, or cared to be investigated. Do you even care about if the man who robbed the 7 eleven today was a Christian? Would you care if he Was a Jew, Buddhist, Scientologist? Or would it only incite hatred when you find out that the criminal is a Muslim?

If you deal in numbers explain this to me:

1,000,000,000+ Muslims on planet Earth. 1% of one billion is 10 million. If one single percent of all Islam were evil-doers, fanatics, terrorists, this number would be so far off from anywhere near the majority, that it should make you realize how foolish you appear. And if ten million people were running around the world with only the purpose of terrorizing and murder, I think you would notice it quite significantly. 10,000,000 is a huge over-estimate for the sake of scale, and the reality is that the evil is contained to within a fraction of a fraction of one percent.

You can find those same numbers in ANY culture or religion. I hope you do not hide behind the facts and deny them with your blind ignorance. Please for the sake of the future of your own children, understand that you need to change your hateful views or it will swallow your life whole.

Isnt this stuff done when the clerics interpret Islamic Law in its strictest sense?
For example, the Taliban. Wasn't the Taliban way of life now supposed to be as it was when Muhammad and I mean everything (Islamic Fundamentalists)? The laws against women, like receiving lashes or even being convicted of something serious and stoning could be the sentence she receives?
Understand that I am not stating fact here I am asking the question, if I correctly understand it?

Originally posted by bodrul
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf exactly these people that commit these crimes are phycopaths
and i agree with you these people lose all rights as a human after commiting such act

its just a shame so many people would rather blame an entire group because of their actions

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Isnt this stuff done when the clerics interpret Islamic Law in its strictest sense?
For example, the Taliban. Wasn't the Taliban way of life now supposed to be as it was when Muhammad and I mean everything (Islamic Fundamentalists)?

Nope. Taliban way of life isn't the example of what you said "now supposed to as it was when Muhammad". Islamic Fundamentalists base on Holy Quran and coroborated Hadiths, not on group of some extremist radicals.

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
The laws against women, like receiving lashes or even being convicted of something serious and stoning could be the sentence she receives?

Men and women are punishable in the same way if they commit something serious.

No. Holy Quran has never mention anything about death stoning sentences.

Bible did. Please refer to:
dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

Please refer to www.irfi.org... for more information on death stone sentences.

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Understand that I am not stating fact here I am asking the question, if I correctly understand it?

No problem.

[edit on 5-5-2007 by EasternShadow]

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
For example, the Taliban. Wasn't the Taliban way of life now supposed to be as it was when Muhammad and I mean everything (Islamic Fundamentalists)?

Not at all. The Quran does not allow murder or oppression, both of which the Taliban are well experienced in doing. The Taliban had used laws that they themselves created, such as women are not allowed to work outside the home, and also that women aren't allowed to be treated by a male doctor. Logically, this means women can't see doctors, because there was no such thing as a female public practicing doctor in Afghanistan, during the Taliban rule.

In fact, it was Muhammad who established laws that forbade harsh treatment of women. Often times, prior to pre-Islam SA, female born babies were killed, because the male was highly sought after. When Muhammad came, he taught that such practices are forbidden by God, and no Muslim can harm anyone in that way.

I guess in 2000 years, the people in the Middle East haven't changed too much. I remember hearing a story where I believe Jesus found a crowd ready to stone a girl. I believe he told them that if you have no sin, then you may throw a stone. Everyone left. It would be nice if people around the world listened and followed that story more closely. I don't believe you gain any honor by killing someone in God's eye. That means any so called honor killing is for their own selfish gain. Not doing anything to try to stop such an event is just about as bad as doing it. My 2 cents.

Originally posted by laiguana
I work more with numbers; I am not moved by the candy-coated talk that I get by Islamic apologists. And statistically it shows that honor killings are the highest among Islamic nations, not to mention terrorism, but that's a whole different subject.

I can tell you of at least two Christian nations who are proponents of terrorism.

Firstly, we have the US, a country which thinks it has the right to dictate to the rest of the world what kind of democracy they should have, how their economy should work and what its citizens should think.

To achieve this objective, they instigate terrorism against the state in question, whether overtly by military operations or covertly with the CIA and local groups.

Deny this if you wish, I care not. This is becoming the accepted view throughout the world and is the reason the US is becoming deeply unpopular (in fact, we in the UK used to love the US, now we're becoming bitter and angry towards it).

The UK is now equally as bad. We made some stupid mistakes in the past with the way we conducted ourselves overseas. A lot of the problems in the middle east come from our interference.

We were getting better at handling foreign policy, until poodle Blair started buying in to the neo-con BS in the Whitehouse.

That said, none of this has relevance to the main story of this thread. I take the view that all religions are dangerous as they're divisive and perpetuated by man. If there was any form of deity, they would prove their existence. Relgions preach peace and tolerance but inflict pain, suffering and death - they always have done, they always will do.

p.

Yes, unfortunately that is true.
Those of us withing the US tend to forget that many other cultures and countries ardently dislike us.
Perhaps it is our arrogance and ethnocentrism.
Many of us (I refuse to mention names, but you know who you are) make inflammatory statements claiming that we use statistic-based data, when in reality, we invent those numbers to back up our imaginary statements.
This is a huge reason why other cultures look down on Americans.
It is a truth that we should be trying to fix, rather than crying foul at another's culture that doesn't conform to our standards.

kokoro i would say its more of a cultral thing
something that has been going on since tribal times honor killings and so on, since in Islam our prohpet clearly condems such acts

these people stand by and watch are just cowards
and those countries that dont do anything are just lead by idiots as they dont truely follow the prohpet

This is one of thousands of sick f***ing acts that happen in the Middle East and Islamic communities every year. I am truly disgusted and can only hope that in the coming months and years, the "responisble" Western people come to their senses and rise up to these scumbags. They truly need removing from this planet, most preferably by public hangings!

There is no excuses for these people, so stop trying to justify their actions!

More information on this story here, too.

And here are some examples of their acts towards people in the West:



I can't wait for the backlash on these people. In my last days here on Earth, I'm taking as many of the sick b******ds as possible with me - god save my soul (I'm non-religious, but still).

Originally posted by James Daniel
There is no excuses for these people, so stop trying to justify their actions!

not to be rude
show me a post/topic where anyone is justifying their actions?
i would really like to see someone justify murder and since you have seen someone justify please point me in that direction

The only question that needs to be asked is how accepted is this within muslim/islamic culture. If you go up to 100 random iraqis in the street and ask them about it what would be the general response?

I dont care what all of the muslims sitting in western countries with your internet and televisions have to say about it.

I want to know what they think over there, not here.

Until then i can't really make too much judgement. I've always wondered about this though, I wish I knew.

I have to say that things like this do seem more accepted than they should be...it doesn't seem like just a small group.

I could be wrong.

Who the heck is indoctrinating these people? And by "these people" I mean the likes of James Daniel, Laguina, and company?

You guys sound like you are being fed horse# by some kind of supremecist group. Your rhetoric is extremeist, and your views biggoted tainted by lies and false impressions. Whoever is doing it, I just hope our Feds are watching them.

I am just curious for the two I mentioned, when yall have children (if you dont already, which it does not sound like it to me) are you going to teach them to utterly revile and hate Muslim people? Are you going to say to a 7 year old child "Hate these people, they are worthless scumbags, and if you see one getting hurt stand by and laugh?" Is this what you guys are going to teach your children? Frankly I think that should be a crime, but I think your viewpoint will change when it comes down to that time.

My kid is three and a half months, and unfortunately I am going to have to teach him how to counter children raised with viewpoints much like yalls expressed here so that he doesnt grow up to be a hate-monger (should be illegal)

Originally posted by DYepes
Who the heck is indoctrinating these people? And by "these people" I mean the likes of James Daniel, Laguina, and company?

I dont know whats wrong with them, but they come in saying a whole bunch of stuff, and obviously havent read the story correctly and seem so ignorant its funny. I dont know what theyre trying to accomplish haha.

I dont know, i can see what they're saying but I reserve those kinds of words for things I am 100% certain about and have experienced first hand.
They can say as much as they like about that particular group of people, they could get thrown into a meat grinder for all I care.
But I wouldn't generalise too much....
It's so hard to say how far reaching this kind of mindset is.

Has anyone actually lived there and travelled around abit that can tell me?

I must say it is good to see that so many of you claim to be interested in denying ignorance. Let’s hope that is true. So your excuse so far is to blame customary law that pre-dates Islam and Christianity, and despite the fact that the two originated from the middle-east, Islam has embraced this ideology by a significant portion, while Christianity has not, at least not to the extent that Islamic nations have. And I suppose that I am also to assume that these societies that pre-dated Islam are also responsible for manipulating the innocent muslim population into thinking that terrorism is the only way to negotiate one’s position?
Setting that aside another time; for those of you that don’t believe honor killings are most prevalent in Islamic nations; I have provided excerpts and different sources regarding this and that’s despite the fact that most of it is suspected to go unreported due to the nature of the –crime– which really isn’t considered a crime in many muslim societies. Now some of you have said that there’s only one interpretation of the quran than why is it that some populations fail to interpret it correctly? Perhaps they believe that their interpretation is that correct one?

"The report of the Special Rapporteur ... concerning cultural practices in the family that are violent towards women (E/CN.4/2002/83), indicated that honour killings had been reported in Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, the Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, Yemen, and other Mediterranean and Gulf countries, and that they had also taken place in such countries as France, Germany and the United Kingdom within migrant communities."

The practice of honor killing is over-whelmingly associated with certain Muslim cultures and the peoples influenced by those cultures.

en.wikipedia.org...

So let’s blame it on cultures that pre-dated Islam centuries ago? Surely their influences are simply too much to overcome in this modern age. Islam has nothing to do with it, they would never embrace such concepts.

Pakistan's Human Rights Commission documented a 25 percent increase last year.
Ironically, the fact that Jordan today is one of the more progressive Arab countries may be contributing to a rise in honor killings.

www.amnestyusa.org...

Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries, the focus of this case study; but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law.

www.gendercide.org...

Honour killing exists mostly in Muslim countries, such as those in the Middle East and Central Asia

www.wccpenang.org...

www.independent.org...

Now don't think I'm blaming the entire muslim population, or Islam for that matter, I'm just not that comfortable with those trying to excuse these types of actions and much less removing responsibility from the perpetrators by blaming someone or something else. My hopes would be that the majority of the Islamic population would address these issues directly, because it is something that remains embedded in muslim societies, but it appears they don't want to even acknowledge it, rather approve of it.

[edit on 5-5-2007 by laiguana]